DWC + general newb questions

Armali

Knights don't operate like in Lusternia, you don't have separate arm balances (unless you're a monk) and can't double target. I think that's what you were trying to get at when you say using a basic jab to break two limbs at the same time.

Vallie

Yep! That was definitely what my thought was, since I saw monk arm balances, and it seemed like I could jab twice so it was two bals

Anedhel

Quick point: DSL receives a limb damage bonus, such that the DSL's damage to a limb is higher than the sum of its weapon damage scores (which is to say, if it were straight damage, it'd be slower prepping than using a longsword, since a longsword's damage is generally higher than two scimitars'). I'm not sure how it works for RSL, but jabbing with one scimitar does not break a limb in the same number of hits as using DSL, whereas using hack or w/e with a longsword gives you the same number of hits to break a limb afaik as using combination, for sword-and-shield. 

The Mastery defence in Weaponmastery for DWC is, as far as I know, what ups your damage, but I'm not sure if that applies to DSL or if it just applies to any weapon you can DSL with. Haven't bothered to test it, since there's virtually no reason to use any other weapon than scimitars as DWC anymore, now that razeslash depends on weapon speed. 

Somersault's a bitch, but jesters are squishy. If you notice anyone tumbling away on the first leg break, automatically, stop going for the second leg break and just impale after the first. They might still get away, depending on your scimitars' level, but tumbling-off-impale respects torso damage, which means you can do a fair chunk if you have the torso broken when they're impaled. Follow up with lunge, and you can usually finish them off if your strength is good enough (jester's resistance is trash, lunge hurts them like crazy). If you're fighting a super-duper-artied jester, you'll probably end up wanting to jump off a building, though, nothing to do about that.

Armali

Man, everybody wants to jump off a building fighting a jester. Rule of thumb is just don't fight jesters.

Calira

RSL uses the same damage formula that DSL does, just with only one damaging hit, of course

Anedhel

Good to know! 

Antonius

Anedhel said:

Quick point: DSL receives a limb damage bonus, such that the DSL's damage to a limb is higher than the sum of its weapon damage scores

Doubleslash limb damage has been tweaked at least twice since Weaponmastery was released. First time was just a bonus (though I'm not sure of how much). No idea exactly what form the second one took, but it's possible that duality uses a different formula for limb damage than regular jabs now.

(which is to say, if it were straight damage, it'd be slower prepping than using a longsword, since a longsword's damage is generally higher than two scimitars')

This would make sense if there was a linear relationship between weapon damage and limb damage, which I'm not sure is actually the case. Even if you could get scimitars with double the damage, it wouldn't necessarily exactly half the amount of hits required.

using hack or w/e with a longsword gives you the same number of hits to break a limb afaik as using combination, for sword-and-shield

I'm pretty sure this isn't true and that Combination either has its own limb damage formula or there's some kind of penalty to its limb damage. Sword and shield limb damage is extremely low so using regular longsword jabs is probably considerably faster prep if you're willing to give up all affliction potential while doing so.

The Mastery defence in Weaponmastery for DWC is, as far as I know, what ups your damage, but I'm not sure if that applies to DSL or if it just applies to any weapon you can DSL with. Haven't bothered to test it, since there's virtually no reason to use any other weapon than scimitars as DWC anymore, now that razeslash depends on weapon speed.

Mastery reduces the amount of your opponent's cutting resistance that applies to (some of?) your attacks. I've never tested exactly what's affected, but I would expect it to be at least most Weaponmastery abilities (not disembowel, obviously, since it doesn't deal cutting damage).

While we're discussing dual cutting damage, in the past doubleslash damage (not limb damage) wasn't just equal to two jabs with those weapons, and was actually less (70% of the total, I think). I'm not sure if this is still the case. There's also still a penalty to damage dealt when targetting limbs, as far as I know, but somebody would need to test to confirm. If it does still have that penalty it's the only specialisation that applies to (probably as a hold over from pre-Weaponmastery).

Anedhel

Has that always been the case re: combination vs. longsword weaponry in terms of limb damage? I vaguely remember it being the same when I was SnB, but that was when Weaponmastery first came out, any idea if there's been a change there? I could just be misremembering, of course. 

Mizik

Mastery is DSL and Arc, I believe. 

Aegoth

Armali said:

Man, everybody wants to jump off a building fighting an alchemist. Rule of thumb is just don't fight alchemists.

ftfy

Szanthax

Aegoth said:

Armali said:

Man, everybody wants to jump off a building fighting an alchemist. Rule of thumb is just don't fight alchemists.

ftfy

I know I do it wrong... But preps that run before momentum can get momentum and come back to finish prep still beats me

Szanthax

Szanthax said:

Aegoth said:

Armali said:

Man, everybody wants to jump off a building fighting an alchemist. Rule of thumb is just don't fight alchemists.

ftfy

I know I do it wrong... But preps that run before momentum can get momentum and come back to finish prep still beats me

But.... I hate tumbling kehe

Vallie

*necro round 2*

Now that I'm a bit more familiar with shank bellybutton/show me your noodles, I'm curious what a DWC's role in a group fight is. I'm increasingly more aware that I have a lot of misconceptions because I'm so used to fights being co-ordinate drain mana/ego --> instakill, or decap/chasm/timed insta off-target while shot callers are busy.

As a Runewarden, I'm aware that prop, block, archery are useful for certain things. But in melee, what do I bring?

Some thoughts/questions:
1) Can someone be engaged by multiple knights at the same time? Do they take multiple engage hits?
2) Is it venom pressure? Wouldn't a serpent just be better?
3) Is it aoe rune damage? I've mostly seen chaos ray/blademaster lightning mentioned, not runes.
4) If it's single target damage, should I just buy battle axes and sensi it up?

Atalkez

Vallie said:

*necro round 2*

Now that I'm a bit more familiar with shank bellybutton/show me your noodles, I'm curious what a DWC's role in a group fight is. I'm increasingly more aware that I have a lot of misconceptions because I'm so used to fights being co-ordinate drain mana/ego --> instakill, or decap/chasm/timed insta off-target while shot callers are busy.

As a Runewarden, I'm aware that prop, block, archery are useful for certain things. But in melee, what do I bring?

You bring afflictions and damage at a solid rate, generally you want to use locking afflictions depending on what you're paired with. You also want to change out your runeblades as needed too. Hugalaz for more damage if you're coupled with affliction givers. Nairait if you're coupled with monks/dragons for more prone time. Things like that.

Some thoughts/questions:
1) Can someone be engaged by multiple knights at the same time? Do they take multiple engage hits? Yes, only the first two hit, with the second suffering diminishing returns on the hit.

2) Is it venom pressure? Wouldn't a serpent just be better? No, because you do damage while afflicting at a rate slightly slower than serpent. Serpent can't aff+damage at the same time. Also: See runeblades

3) Is it aoe rune damage? I've mostly seen chaos ray/blademaster lightning mentioned, not runes. You use othala to break lyres, if they're using them. Otherwise, you can use thurisaz/sniping for LoS

4) If it's single target damage, should I just buy battle axes and sensi it up? Battle axes are going to be less DPS than regular scimitars, so no. Best bet is to focus on venom rotation and recognizing when/what venom you need to move to.

Dunn

Stick sensitivity, spam curare, throw a battle cry, lunge runners (watch for guards. Source: my life), drop hugalaz/othala runes.  DWC in groups is very good IMO, especially runewarden. I say scims for it all. I don't even own an axe anymore. 

Runie has great aoe with hugalaz/othala/arc too. Throw in a crucible and you're in rants post territory, friend. 

Farrah

Always use engage. You can use it off balance so using it after you attack won't slow you down, and it kills a ton of people in group fights.

I echo Dunn/Atalkez re: use scimitars.

I'd only really go for the AoE if others in your group are too, but it can be good if they are.

Otherwise, curare/pref for damage or curare/kalmia, curare/vernalius, gecko/slike for lock assists if you have someone delivering impatience. If your group is keeping up the constant curare on its own, you can do something like kalmia/gecko, aconite/slike for a focuslock instead.

Lunge spam is always ouch for damage and stun/prone for bite/bbt, if you're able to leave the room easily. Otherwise battlecry/arc target prefarar is good hinder and a good setup for bite/bbt kills. You'll have to curare/prefarar to undeaf before battlecrying.

Dunn

Ah yeah lock support. DWC is great lock support that also deals good damage so it's got a leg up on serpent there. 

Anedhel

Don't forget that DWC gets a limb damage boost on DSL, so there's no real reason not to target a leg in combat, unless you're fighting someone super annoying who parries last hit limb and is for some reason on balance all the time to switch parry around (which is rare). A broken leg in group melees really is a bitch. 

Also, re: runes: hugalaz on the floor is a no-brainer, and othala's great, but don't forget you have something super annoying in Nauthiz, too. Specially if it's a big group, or if you're fighting in a spot that people can't easily get away from, hunger'll tick down faster'n you think it will. And if someone walks into the totem with nauthiz down and there's, say, a slick floor, hoo, boy. I'm moderately certain you can pair it with the vomiting from euphorbia to make hunger tick faster, too, but I might be wrong on that, so don't quote me! 

Kenway

Anedhel said:

Don't forget that DWC gets a limb damage boost on DSL, so there's no real reason not to target a leg in combat, unless you're fighting someone super annoying who parries last hit limb and is for some reason on balance all the time to switch parry around (which is rare). A broken leg in group melees really is a bitch. 

Also, re: runes: hugalaz on the floor is a no-brainer, and othala's great, but don't forget you have something super annoying in Nauthiz, too. Specially if it's a big group, or if you're fighting in a spot that people can't easily get away from, hunger'll tick down faster'n you think it will. And if someone walks into the totem with nauthiz down and there's, say, a slick floor, hoo, boy. I'm moderately certain you can pair it with the vomiting from euphorbia to make hunger tick faster, too, but I might be wrong on that, so don't quote me! 

I am quoting you. You are correct.

Antonius

Anedhel said:

Don't forget that DWC gets a limb damage boost on DSL, so there's no real reason not to target a leg in combat

Two main reasons not do target a leg in group combat:
1. Dual cutting has a damage penalty when targetting, so you're sacrificing actual health damage in exchange for limb damage.
2. Dual cutting doesn't do enough limb damage to be able to just ignore other sources, and has no way to prone off balance after a leg break (you have to use double delphinium to prone on that doubleslash, or wait until the one after the break), so if there are other people targetting that same leg you can't time the break precisely. That generally means that you either have to rely on somebody else to prone or you have to use double delphinium until it breaks, sacrificing venoms.

Dunn

I just don't want to risk a full round of affs into a parry for what will likely not amount to a break. 

Vallie

I was going to ask if it was worth targetting limbs or not in groups, you guys pretty much answered it :P

Speaking of damage, I'm aware that high str is a big deal for disembowel. I've read previously that for example DWB damage doesn't have a very noticeable scaling on str, does DWC scale fairly high on str? I'm wondering if my main focus is likely going to be groups, if it's better to hold back a point of str to have a bit more con. If I went full str (racial + stat trait) I'd be at 19 after fury.

Do you generally just keep fury up whenever possible in a group?

I know lv 1. scims is nice to speed up setup, and I'm aware that say @Aerek gets by without them and @Dunn's mentioned before lv 1 was sufficient too. While I'm not going to pick them up until I'm at least quarter-way decent, were they a noticeable edge in that kind of setting?

Bann

@Vallie - Falcons still strip defs on occasion, just not super often.

Nazihk

Vallie said:

I'm wondering if my main focus is likely going to be groups, if it's better to hold back a point of str to have a bit more con. If I went full str (racial + stat trait) I'd be at 19 after fury.

If you are Dragon with decent health artifacts, definitely go str spec + str trait.

If you are Dragon without health artifacts, you can consider it but you might not want to lose the tankiness. This is a personal decision based off of who you fight, how much you value 1v1 versus groups, etc. 

If you are not Dragon, stick with con+con until you are.

Dunn

I roll around at 19 with fury too

Armali

She's a dragon! Frankly, I value strength much more in groups, since your focus should really be evasion if targeted. You're going to explode really fast either way if the other team knows what it's doing.

The best defense, after all, is a strong offense.

Atalkez

Armali said:

The best defense, after all, is a strong offense.

Unless you have wand of reflection, crystal tattoo, Thir and fulcrum ofc

Puxi

Atalkez said:

Armali said:

The best defense, after all, is a strong offense.

Unless you have wand of reflection, crystal tattoo, Thir and fulcrum ofc

Lyre too.

Dunn

Urn mount, causality, boost images...

Vallie

I uh.

I've got algiz?