Bloody Thief!

Soma

Okay, so apologies if this is the wrong place for this. It's borderline RP, but some of what I am going to say it outside of that too.

Let me just start of with: Wow. Theft is amazingly fun. Finding your target, waiting til they stand still then slinking in quiet and starting pickpocket. Man, it just makes my heart race. Love it. I've been robbing people all night (already got enemied to every other city) and I even try to get Tanris, but those damn chaos entities got in the way. It was sooo fun though, even if I'll never get a chance like that again. Evaded into Hashan and nabbed sigils from Verily standing there talking to Dodder and booked it. Then I tried a very risky theft from Trilliana in Scarlatti's temple (it came to my attention that this wasn't allowed, but I didn't see it on help theft so apologies and I -won't- do it again) while she was standing there with an order member. Got enemied before I could even slip out of the temple, but managed to get out since no one engaged me. At this point, I was in some sort of zone because I ran and hid, popped up who b and looked for my next target and quickly sprinted off to get them. So I get to my target (think I even pulled that one off clean) and ended up running into Traelor, who dropped it his piety and was like, "Let's do this son!" But I'm lie nah, peace. So I run, end up blowing by Trilliana and promptly turn around to pickpocket her. But boom Traelor shows up and starts laying into me with that holy vengeance, so I book it again. Cuts me off again, somewhere, but I was too fast, headed for Mhaldor, and I think he knew it. So I start heading down the mountain trial, and notice I pass Alienna (confirmed target >:D) so I turn right around and pull of a quick theft, got some gold, and jammed it straight to the gates. Whew! Man my heart was racing! And then Alienna sent me some RP tells being wayyyy to nice (not that I minded, it's good to actually get RP with those across all of Sapience) so that was a bonus too.

It is also in my understanding that theft has been severely nerfed. To the point where "theft doesn't happen" as I've heard it put a few times. That... is pretty disheartening when I'm having so much fun with it. I'll continue to steal, even if it is a waste of my xp when I get killed. I don't think it needs to be harder or easier, but I think the stakes are abysmally low. I also know that this subject has probably been beaten to death, but oh well, I like theft, and it really provides an awesome alternative to the grind.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts, not necessarily what theft needs, but also why we need theft as a viable avenue.

Cahin

Someone said something about a dead horse?

Dartega

This is why people hate thieves

Vaehl

Pickpocket is actually really strong. I've stolen about 300k over two days while not even playing too much. There are certain tricks to being a successful pickpocketer but nobody seems to be trying to figure it out (because they just say pickpocket sucks, no use of trying, etc). I loved the rush of pickpocketing and the techniques I know made it succeed more than it didn't. I'm not a serpent anymore, though.

There are really no innovative thieves anymore. Dontarion/Profit (RIP) were great. Some people say Profit was a bad thief, but that's probably because he robbed the hyphen out of them at some point.

The tricks I used to make pickpocket successful weren't even made by me. Profit told me quite a few of his own tricks and I came up with only one or two of my own.

tl;dr don't give up on it. It's fun, and it really doesn't suck like other serpents say. It sure is DIFFERENT and weaker in some aspects, but it's fine.

Vayne

Oh boy...

I'm glad your making the most of it, and props to you for stimulating some RP with it. The problem is all you got was a bit of gold and a few sigils which is fine if the thrill of the theft is what is motivating you but it does not exactly line your pockets(it seems like they nerfed the denizen gold as well?). You are going to get essentially two answers, @Soma.

1) Theft was a horrible mechanic that was ridiculously one sided towards the thief with all the benefit and none of the risk. Furthermore, all thieves are ***holes who just want to ruin your day and cannot RP and if they do it is not good RP.  --- It is rather one sided and -could- be abused by people who just run in rob you and let themselves die, no chance of getting your stuff back anyway and then laugh like the previously mentioned ***hole. However, there were complex and readily available anti-theft tactics which were essentially part of the training of an decent house so there was really no reason you should ever get jacked besides carelessness.

2) Theft was a fundamental aspect of the game and provided a palpable sense of constant danger in the world and likewise fueled interesting and unique RP through journals, letters, and rare item's value to the victim.

Theft has lost a lot of its oomph since the nerf and since you were not around it seems, it was a pretty fatal blow to the mechanic. The experience is totally different, the mechanic is totally different, and the ratio of risk to reward has been completely reversed. Sounds more like people are seeing your character as an pitiable yet adorable street urchin who pickpockets people but they are ok with it because they know its a hard knock life. It's not so much of a violation as it was before, especially since the biggest scare is if you have valuable letters out or a hug wad of gold.

I think we NEED theft for sure. The change has punched Serpent Houses in the face, and pickpocketing in its current form is poor replacement seemingly done to appease the masses.

But hey, if you are having fun and producing good RP, go you, I doubt most more established characters would be so warmly received; SEE @Daeir.

Soma

@Vayne

You bring up some good points Vayne. But I think we can reach a level ground. We don't take PK out of the game because some people are griefers. I have two ideas to kind of level the playing field. 24 hours grace period, while both parties are logged in the clock is ticking. During this time, if the thief is slain, the item drops from their inventory on the spot. Maybe make it so the the theftee has to be in the room for it to happen. That is not an insane feat to accomplish, even for a newbie.

Second, have a simple ivory mark sort of system that lists items stolen from you like contracts, or if your the thief, items you've taken. A (moderately) high fee is all that you have to pay to -guarentee- your item back, and the thief still gets to walk away grinning. Also, note this is not a flat fee, maybe flat fees based on item type would work the smoothest.

But the real enjoyment is the act of the theft, just like the slayings are the enjoyment of pk. It's just another avenue that doesn't always end well for people, it is a game after all. So, to be able to pull over some really heart pounding hiests with more tangible stakes... well, it would be rewarding to -all- the serpent houses in game, and another viable alternative for people that don't like to lolraid (even though I kinda do, heh...)

Tvistor

@Soma You can send me an OOC tell in the game. All of the mechanics you suggested have already been suggested by @Alynna who is amazing and should remind everyone of flowers.

Sherazad

You should check out the other threads about it. I forgot if it's here or the old forums.

Idelisa

I'm not a serpent, so my perspective is from the other side, and I appreciate theft.  As @Vayne says, it provides a sense of danger and excitement.   I'm disappointed with how few things serpents can steal, though.  

Delphinus

Since pickpocketing and city destruction went in, I am enjoying Achaea more and spending more time where people can see me (as opposed to burrowed). This is despite my support of simplified PK and other "make Achaea more interesting" initiatives.

I realise this is anecdotal. Just thought I'd share.

Jacen

Speaking as a a non Serpent, I'd rather see admin effort put into expanding their spying ability rather than thievery ability. Which would really entail changes to the msg/tell system as opposed to serpents, but still.

Aerek

I, personally, think this is somewhat symbolic. The players just coming in to the new theft system are going to have a blast with it, because it's still lucrative and it's still fun. It's just the old players saying, "In my day, I could take whatever I wanted, even though most of it was completely useless to me and priceless to them." and hating it.

It's not really any different than how I feel toward Priest healing. I played back when it was cheap as dirt and I could just auto-heal off diagnose all day long, making myself completely invincible to affliction-based classes. Now it's been "nerfed" so that it's "fair" to other players. Is it as fun as it used to be? No, but I understand that the game is better for it.

I do hope the old players let the new players have their fun, instead of drowning them in, "You're not really having fun, and here's why."

Tvistor

I stole a metric ton and I don't care that much old theft is gone. I'm still at risk of losing things, but don't feel the need to compulsively spam QL. Theft could use some changes, but there are so many more things serpents can do anyway. It is pretty much the class with the most potential outside of combat, and Mhaldor is (in my opinion, but I'm obviously biased) the best city to take advantage of the skillsets offered. I was really put out when pickpocketing was first put in. I caught a lot of flack on some OOC Skype chats (but I always do when I disagree with the general consensus, which is why I don't keep OOC clans anymore) for saying 'trust administration'. Administration honestly did a fine job.

In addition to all that, having stopped participating in theft, I've been able to stand in the open and not die. The amount of RP that has opened up to me since then has absolutely dwarfed whatever minute amount I was able to dredge from theft attempts. (speaking of which, I returned 90% of what I stole because OOCly I like to pretend I'm a nice person.) I'm even going to eventually get around to repaying some blackmail victims quietly, because blackmail invariably revolves around mudsex and that's just silly to get involved in. A lot of it happens because of OOC... er... 'urges'.

I'd like to be able to pickpocket letters more easily, so on, so forth. Gold seldom makes the game more fun once you are past the point where you can afford what you need. That would be a true RP mechanic I could get behind and encourage people to use. For the moment, I'm able to stand at New Thera and talk to people without Darroth opening a can of artiemonk.

The people who got angriest over the theft changes that I saw were non-combatants who essentially had theft as their only form of offense. That was just stupid. 'I use it to grief people that annoy me ICly' is a terrible justification for a broken mechanic. As for the entire 'dangerous game world' thing? The game world is still plenty dangerous to me because I make it so, and RP it thusly. I'm just less likely to get AXK'd because I lolstole 100k from some guy, less likely to have some complete noob rob me blind while I'm disconnected and more likely to get involved in conflict because I did something meaningful. I can live with that.

I could probably write on this all day, but I'll end with 'Everyone that disagrees with me is a communist.'

Sena

I would argue with Tvistor, but his forum points are too high (he's too good for stars now), so he must be right.

Tvistor

My God I am amazing. Do you guys see that? I see that.

Coincidentally, do I win forums and lose the 'having a life' contest?

Xith

We got us a klepto. And yeah theft doesn't happen mainly because people don't try. But down the road when people have forgotten it exists (like now), serpents will find they have more opportunities due to people's carelessness. I already care less about selfishness than I used to.

Iocun

I'd love for pickpocketing to be opened up a bit more again, although I'm personally rather uninvolved with it. Nevertheless, it's great to hear that some people are having a blast with the system as it currently is!

Wilhelmina

@Soma How much did you make?

Tvistor

Pickpocketing is really easy. A full quarter of people don't even put selfishness up now, or bother with basic antitheft.

Aepas

I still feel like the difference in theft can be shown something like the new players have said.
"Oh man, I stole so much hold from X amount of people!"

Where there have been old stories of...
"I once scouted the location of a precious cargo movement, snuck in, and stole these many trinkets off of the caravan driver. This one holds special connections to the god X, and the house Y."

Mechanically, new theft is superior. But it doesn't lend to anything more than an annoying mosquito slowly leeching off tiny parts of your life. It's still just as one sided as it always was, however the "Loss" aspect has been dispersed across many other people, so no single person cries anymore. In fact, all they do is wave their hand and walk off. However, in one gain is also a loss. Many varieties of RP theft have been lost. But.. that aside, I am glad nobody like glint or the other annoying things can exist anymore.

Tvistor

Aepas said:

Where there have been old stories of...
"I once scouted the location of a precious cargo movement, snuck in, and stole these many trinkets off of the caravan driver. This one holds special connections to the god X, and the house Y."

Sounds like nostalgia to me. Nearly every theft has been some variation of 'and then he had selfishness down', 'and then he forgot to throw an eye sigil' or 'and I think he was daydreaming.' The only truly impressive theft that has happened since I started playing was Profit stealing the Caliph's Mantle, which backfired hugely anyway.

Penwize

@Tvistor: Dontarion stealing the Staff of Nicator from Rangor was pretty impressive, especially considering the ad-hoc event he got out of it.  As a side note, how did someone who didn't even win the Staff of Nicator get more RP out of it than those who won it?

Vaehl

You probably just bashed whatever denizen walked in to RP with you.

Tvistor

Even with two impressive events, (I dunno a thing about stealing the Staff), that still leaves an infinitely larger number of lolTheft. As far as stealing information goes, most people don't write anything important down. There was the occasional person keeping mudsex logs in journals, but that was a little distasteful. (although I think I made the Cyrenian Senate have a meeting about it once -- victory)

Melodie

Hmm. I don't recall that.

I do recall dicussing blackmail though...

Selira

"(although I think I made the Cyrenian Senate have a meeting about it once -- victory)"

If I remember right, it was mostly, "We're -seriously- dealing with this? Ugh, why is this in front of us? This isn't our business."

Then again, that might have just been what I usually thought in Senate meetings. No guarantees.

Tvistor

I'd have been worried if that wasn't your response.

Sylvance

I'm willing to take any odds that one of the people harping on for moartheftplz! is going to be one of the first to ISSUE/ragepermaquit/throw a bitchfit on the forums because they

a) Get robbed blind themselves by another thief who actually has skill at it (rather than a lulzy F1 macro)

b) Rob the wrong person and find themselves unable to leave their hiding place for fear of being RPPK'd back down to level 1

I was robbed once and had a great time of RPing it out, but that was for an item that cost 5k to replace, and by a good-natured thief.  I think it's quite easy to forget that (rightly or wrongly) that 'bit of text/code' your character steals from another character can have real value to the player on the other side of the screen, and I don't think that's ever okay.

Sylvance

Soma said:

@Vayne

We don't take PK out of the game because some people are griefers ...

... But the real enjoyment is the act of the theft, just like the slayings are the enjoyment of pk.

Can't say I agree with either of these statements: The first is true... but nor did we 'take theft out of the game because some people were griefers'.  Theft was changed to try and stay ahead of the griefers... but then so was PK, which is what resulted in a PK lawbook.  Secondly, if the only enjoyment you get from PK is 'the slayings' then you aren't gonna enjoy PK much.  

Honestly, I'm quite confused by the oft-made comparison between theft and PK.  Sure, both of them are aspects of PvP conflict in the game, and PvP conflict is absolutely necessary to Achaea, but there the similarities end.  Let's consider some of the differences

PK:

* Easily avoided if you do not wish to participate in it, just by minding your business and behaving as you'd normally be expected to behave in public.

* 'Losing' results in you losing a few hour's bashing

* Is usually characterised by two people/groups attempting to kill one another, each believing they have a chance of 'winning' in some sense (be that 'I kicked Carmain's ass!' or 'I survived ten seconds against Carmain!' or simply 'I stood up for myself against Carmain!')

Theft

* (Necessarily, I understand) something that can be done to people who don't find it fun and don't wish to take part

* 'Losing' can quite easily result in you losing something that was OOCly expensive or irreplaceable

* If the thief doesn't wish to return it, there may literally be nothing you can do about it

* Is usually characterised by people actively targeting people that they don't think can defend against it ("He's AFK! Let's loltheft him!") Please, nobody insult us by suggesting that thieves don't use BWHO to see who's AFK.

Mishgul

I feel like Sylvance's post is based on theft from the yonder years as oppose to now.

Also the standard for surviving against Carmain is 7.5 seconds.

10 seconds? Pah.

Sylvance

Mishgul said:

I feel like Sylvance's post is based on theft from the yonder years as oppose to now.

Also the standard for surviving against Carmain is 7.5 seconds.

10 seconds? Pah.

Yes, it is based on that.  I'm not complaining about the current theft system (I'll leave that to the Serps), I'm complaining about the constant bawling of "Can we please go back to the golden age of theft"