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Blademaster bashing and more

AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,762 @@ - Legendary Achaean
edited April 2016 in North of Thera
After hearing several complaints about BM bashing over the weeks, I feel it would be best to bring this topic forward.


While BM did get a slight boost to damage against mobs recently, this still didnt bring them much in par to other classes and they still frankly remain as a bad choice for bashing purposes. I will list why below.


- May not use a shield, thus no access to an SoA

I am not certain why this is, but frankly it is coded in that Blademasters are not allowed to wield a shield, as we get this message when we attempt to: 'True warriors have no need for shields.', which in itself is pretty false.


- Have low armor options

A blademaster may only wear up to ringmail, which alongside not having a shield would make one believe they should have some form of counter to the lack of defense with sublime damage, however that is not the case either.


- Have 0 utility

Battlerage aside, Blademasters have no form of utility to take advantage of in bashing in comparison to other classes. They have no form of speed boosts, no forms of heal, no forms of passive curing, nothing. This makes them highly lacking in higher tier bashing. The sad part is that the abilities are in fact -there-, but cant be used since they require Shin.


- Stances

While Blademasters do have stances to try and switch it up, in their current vulnerable state most blademasters can either rely on Mir or Thyr. Thyr is frankly not much an option, since it reduces damage and you are still pretty vulnerable, thus we turn to Mir. Most blademasters will utilize Mir for bashing, since it gives more defense, however the trade-off is slower attacks in comparison. For high-tier bashing, it is near suicidal to -not- use Mir. This brings us to the last of usable stances, considered a near Taboo: Arash. Arash  will give boosted speed and damage in exchange for a 20% increase in damage. This with an already squishy class is suicidal and thus why no one will touch Arash unless they are fighting some low-damaging mobs (and I mean really low mobs). In conclusion, it's Mir or bust



- Battlerage

The battlerage for Blademasters gives them access to amnesia and weariness, which would likely be based on the assumption to try and reduce incoming damage for the squishy blademasters. Let us think of this in realistic bashing terms, we all know that a basher that is using rage for defensive purposes is then sacrificing damage, and this should generally be used against certain mobs (or groups of) that are deserving of this sacrifice of speed for defense. Thus, in the Blademaster's current state, it would be assumed they should utilize these defensive capabilities far far more often simply to stay alive, thus reducing their speed greatly. It is a far better option to focus on lower mobs and utilize full damage battlerage, rather than higher ones with slower bashing.



Some simple suggestions that I have made before:

* Allow Blademasters to build Shin while bashing. This alone would fix -a loooot- of the problems with their bashing. By giving them Shin, you give them access to use: Healthtrans, Bind, Manatrans and even Phoenix. This would not only saturate their bashing utility but also increase their effectiveness.


* If Shin is out of the question, then adding more damage may be the best answer to their lack of defense: Allow Sternum to be used on mobs? Allow Multislash to be used on mobs? These are general suggestions.
Dari
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Comments

  • AliezeAlieze Member Posts: 15 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Wait, Blademasters bash?
    Dari
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Use Sanya. Never use Thyr. Sanya, Mir and Arash are the golden standard for killing things. Sanya is your balanced stance, Mir is your "oh god this hits really hard" stance and Arash is the "never in 12 years could this thing hope to kill me if it tried" stance. When in doubt, just Sanya.

    I won't say BM's bashing is excellent, but it isn't as terrible anymore as it used to be. It has middle-of-the-line battlerage and being able to tailor offensive/defensive bonuses at will for a paltry balance cooldown is very strong if you learn to use it properly. Giving them access to Shin while bashing would make them nearly unkillable between healthtrans and bind.

    Also, try using defensive battlerage strategies while in Arash. Amnesia means a lot more when it means you avoid an attack that would otherwise do a third of your health. Whether it makes up for the dps loss from losing high/low damage cycles, I honestly don't know.
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,561 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Correction on the battlerage affs: SHIN DAZE gives stun, not amnesia!

  • AesiAesi Member Posts: 1,222 @ - Epic Achaean
    Perhaps not utility in the sense of killing well, but mindnet is wonderful if you venture into annwyn or uw.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just luc'd into BM again. It's heaps better than it used to be. You can bash in Mir now and almost match the speed of thyr/sanya pre nerfs. This is without a band, as well.
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 289 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Blademaster hunting doesn't feel like it should be compared to the other classes I've had to time to play with. The damage isn't enough, the survival tools aren't there, no SoA is a huge factor on the defensive end. I'd understand the shortcomings defensively if the damage was there but the class underperforms hunting in all areas.

    I have enough resources to try any setup anyone wants to suggest, Mir, Sanya, Arash "speed-hunting" (it's not even fast). Mir + burst setup as well. Overall I'm simply not impressed.
    DariTelendrieth
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,762 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aesi said:
    Perhaps not utility in the sense of killing well, but mindnet is wonderful if you venture into annwyn or uw.

    Having personally assumed this and tried, I can say without a doubt that unless you have a veil, you'll still die a cruel cruel death. Mindnet doesnt pick up when veiled enter.
    Lucianus
  • AesiAesi Member Posts: 1,222 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2016
    That does happen, yes, but I have also had it save me as a monk, and at least blademasters can still evade somewhat.

    Not bulletproof by any means, but still a credit to them.

    and not a justification to being weak, either. Haven't tried since the damage boost but I was definitely not a fan before it.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Stances do need some work. This is what I'd do if it was my call (vs denizens):

    Reduce all stance swaps to 1s balances.

    Thyr:

    Reduced base damage of drawslash by 25%.
    Decreased balance recovery time on drawslash by 20%.
    Reduced base accuracy of drawslash by 15%.

    Add flat 33% chance on drawslash to trigger "thyrslash" against denizens. This would strike again up to two times, each multistrike dealing 33% of normal damage. (total of 1.66x normal drawslash damage if both proc)

    With tempestuous grace, you draw Singing Winds in a broad, arcing slash against a black rat.
    Shin energy ripples throughout your body as you embellish the grace of Thyr, unconsciously permitting your blade twirl about and make a second strike.
    A zephyr swirls about you as your blade makes a third strike in succession after the last, eliciting a great spray of blood.

    These multistrikes would not be able to crit on their own, but would rather add base damage onto the first drawslash, which would then crit with this added damage. Lots of RNG, big crits, very fast. Very Thyr.

    Doya:

    Permits use of sternum strike against denizens at half damage.
    20% base damage bonus for drawslash.
    15% increased balance recovery time from Drawslash.
    5% increased critical strike chance for Drawslash and Sternum strike against denizens.

    Gives BM the "big hit" stance and some delicious crit for newbies. Dragon BMs will overkill so hard from the crit bonus and base damage bonus that they'll want to Thyr instead, unless it floats their boat.

    Sanya:

    Battlerage skills 10% of their rage value as Shin energy upon use, up to a maximum of 35 energy gained at once. Gaining energy over 35 Shin with Bind enabled will trigger the normal Binding heal effect at 1/4 rate.

    5% increased base speed and damage for drawslash that fades as Shin approaches 35.

    Spending Shin temporarily increases Sanya's drawslash bonuses by 100% for 5 seconds.

    This essentially promotes the choice of holding on to Shin for constant binding heals at the expense of losing the speed and damage bonus.

    Mir:

    Reduced base damage of drawslash by 20%.
    Increased balance recovery time on drawslash by 10%.

    Every 5 hits taken from a denizen in Mir triggers an adaptive riposte on the 6th hit, reducing the damage taken from that attack by 75%. Adaptive buildup fades at the same time as battlerage after combat.

    <denizen attack line>
    Sensing a flaw in a black rat's movements, you deftly step aside and bring Swinging Winds in to guard against the oncoming blow, removing much of the attack's force.

    Inferior SoA type effect with more consistency at the expense of major DPS loss. Simple, clean.

    Arash:

    Reduced balance recovery time on drawslash by 35%.
    Increased damage taken from unblockable portion of denizen attacks by 35%

    Every third drawslash or critical strike with drawslash in Arash stance permits the use of Multislash against the denizen within 3 seconds. Multislashes made in Arash recover balance 33% faster than normal against denizens.

    Multislash is treated as a physical decay/warp/arius clone with its damage split across the three strikes evenly. Each strike can crit independently of the others.

    Super fast, introduces a lot of unavoidable damage back to the BM, crits everywhere at higher levels. High risk, high reward.

    I don't know why I decided to write all this, but it's the sort of thing I'd love to see, anyway. Meaningful bashing choices make Achaea a lot more fun.
    BorranAsmodronKesherDrot
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I like where you're going with your idea,  but I think it's a little needlessly complex. 

    Just adding a flavourful bonus to each stance would be enough for me to love Blademaster hunting. By flavourful, I mean something that shows me that it has an effect, not just altering damage, speed, or resistance.

    Something like this would be cool for monk stances too.

    DariTaelEld
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honestly, all classes could benefit from some alternative bashing paths or at least meaningful choices to make. It's woefully drull otherwise.
    Katsuragi
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    There is only one reason why we aren't allowed to gain shin during bashing. One ability that is preventing this...

    That is Phoenix.

    They're worried that if we're able to gain shin from bashing denizens. We'd be able to spam SHIN PHOENIX over and over.


    Though I think if they just cut the shin gain by 50% or less per hit on a denizen. They'd be able to adjust how often we can use SHIN PHOENIX while hunting.

    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
    Tael
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So just cap shin gain from denizens at a smaller amount. It isn't like they can't do that, or anything.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Would phoenix even really be that big a deal?

    You wouldn't be able to use it against denizens any more often than you can against players and it's not exactly like you can chain phoenix to make BM invincible normally.

    Hell, the ability to remove all of your afflictions at once is way less useful while bashing since it's not like you're getting out of mobs' lock attempts.

    And as far as just straight-up healing, isn't healthtrans just decidedly more efficient than phoenix?

    But yes, it'd also be pretty easy to balance the bashing utility by just altering the shin gain rate from denizens, especially if it were just a flat amount per denizen sternum strike.

    It'd also be nice from an aesthetic standpoint. The whole thing with BM is combining a slash and a strike and it's sort of weird that that's not represented in their bashing attack - sort of like monk if it bashed with only SDK and no punches.
    Eld
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,916 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Monks get kaiheal, numb and transmute. BM isn't held back because of Phoenix (lol what, this ability is basically worthless for hunting. It cures some afflictions, which you should already be curing as it is) - it's held back to not be a mini-Monk.

    It's always been odd to me that BM doesn't use their second hand at all during hunting, either by striking or by wielding a shield. It's like we neuter the thematics of the class to consolidate their hunting into one attack. I think this is a bad design, but it could be hard to re-code it to work this way.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Marax
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    Don't monks have to have a hunting buddy (who's considered an enemy) to use kai trance?
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Frederich said:
    Don't monks have to have a hunting buddy (who's considered an enemy) to use kai trance?
    I don't think mob attacks influence trance. 



    Sherazad
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:

    Stuff
    Not sure why you'd want Thyr to decrease accuracy, since that's the opposite of its role in other contexts. 

    I also don't know if your numbers were meant to be serious suggestions or just example numbers to give an idea of the general purpose of each stance, but with the numbers you gave, it looks like there'd basically be no reason to use anything other than doya (or arash if you're fighting really weak stuff). Doya would boost dps by about 25% at level 25, up to about 45%  dragon, with no other crit bonuses. If the accuracy reduction for thyr is supposed to mean you miss 15% of the time, it will reduce your dps by a few percent, all told. The damage reduction from Mir would be a huge nerf compared to the current version (unless you mean for it to also keep the current damage reduction, in which case it would be a very small buff), with a minor nerf to dps to boot. I'd have to look up some numbers, but I doubt 1 shin per 10 spent rage would be enough to keep up with natural shin decay; if it were enough to let you healthtrans for a point or two every 5 seconds, it would basically be a 20% dps boost (better than thyr, worse than doya).

    Of course, you could tweak the numbers to get the relationship you want between the stances, but the broader point is that it would be hard to balance something like that in such a way as to not end up with one stance being the clear default choice, with a couple others maybe being situationally useful (not to mention the difficulty of also balancing it against the other classes). I'm sympathetic to the desire for the stances to offer meaningfully different strategies, but it seems like it would most likely end up being a lot of effort just to end up with something that would end up functionally very similar to the current situation.
    Daeir
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well put. The numbers are definitely meant to be more of an example for general weighting over actual numbers, but you raise a very good point.
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2016
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • DaironDairon Member Posts: 330 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2016
    Lucianus said:
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    With the recent changes, I'm stepping out on a limb here by saying NOBODY does serpent-tier damage, especially when artied to the teeth. 


  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Dairon said:
    Lucianus said:
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    With the recent changes, I'm stepping out on a limb here by saying NOBODY does serpent-tier damage, especially when artied to the teeth. 


    Funny thing is that Serp gets both top tier damage and the better defense with SoA + Scalemail. Blademasters, with a weaker ringmail and not being able to wield SoA... why am I hurting myself by not hunting as a serpie instead?

    Hell, with my strength. My bard jabs do as much damage as my thyr drawslash, with both at the same 1.7s speed. Yeah, people can argue, "Oh, but your crits are weaker with Bard." But tell that to standard 40% crit rate with aim-to-kill trait and a huge plethora of defensive options via SoA, hallelujah, gigue, wassail, continuo, anthem, and aria.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • DaironDairon Member Posts: 330 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    SoA + Scalemail (and scales) might be better defense, but we have pitifully little health to play around with, even with health/con arties. 

    I think I'm at 5000 health with level 2's.. and I can't tank two watch outriders without running.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,762 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I cant tank 2 of much anything out there as a BM. Not vertani, outriders, prin guards, heck even Mysia pirates give me issues in a cluster.


    I like the idea of the stances having more meaning behind them and more advantages.


    I also would really love it if the AB of each stance gave the actual numbers of buff/debuff given by each stance. Such as:

    Thyr: 15% increase in attack speed, 50% increase in accuracy, -20% decrease in in damage.


    It would really help -a lot- in trying to understand them more and pick the best options, especially for new Blademasters.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lucianus said:

    Hell, with my strength. My bard jabs do as much damage as my thyr drawslash, with both at the same 1.7s speed. Yeah, people can argue, "Oh, but your crits are weaker with Bard." 
    If the damage and speed are the same, so are the crits.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Asmodron said:
    I cant tank 2 of much anything out there as a BM. Not vertani, outriders, prin guards, heck even Mysia pirates give me issues in a cluster.


    I like the idea of the stances having more meaning behind them and more advantages.


    I also would really love it if the AB of each stance gave the actual numbers of buff/debuff given by each stance. Such as:

    Thyr: 15% increase in attack speed, 50% increase in accuracy, -20% decrease in in damage.


    It would really help -a lot- in trying to understand them more and pick the best options, especially for new Blademasters.
    It would indeed be nice to have them in the AB files. In the meantime, for reference, the damage adjustments relative to sanya are:
    Thyr: -20%
    Mir: -10%
    Unstanced:  -5%
    Doya: +5%
    Arash: +10%

    Balance times are 10% shorter in thyr and (I think) arash, and 20% longer in Mir and Doya. Arash might only be 5%, I don't remember for sure at the moment.

    The defensive effects are a bit harder to test, but I think Mir and Arash decrease and increase damage taken by something like 20-25%, respectively.

    Accuracy effects are even harder to quantify, but they don't really matter for bashing.
  • DariDari Member Posts: 5
    I've read conflicting opinions on this so I'm curious. What stance should I bash in?
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In terms of DPS, Arash>Sanya>Mir, the other stances are all worse than those three. Use the best one you can survive in.

    The more important question is where to bash; should you use Mir and hunt slowly in a higher level area or use Sanya/Arash and hunt more quickly in a lower level area? The answer to that depends greatly on which specific areas you're choosing between, and your level/artefacts, so you'll really just need to try them and compare.
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Dari said:
    I've read conflicting opinions on this so I'm curious. What stance should I bash in?

    If you're not sitting on a mountain of strength (18 or more) and don't have a level 3 band. Sanya/Arash.

    From my own experience. I clear faster with Thyr, but that's only because of the 18/19 strength + lvl 3 band + level 3 crit pendant makes up for the 20% reduction in damage from using Thyr stance.

    17 strength + level 3 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    18 strength + level 2 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    19 strength + level 2 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    Full con build (16-19 con) with minimum 12-16 strength? Sanya/Arash is better.

    Always pick Sanya/Arash if you are wondering which offensive stance to bash in.


    Crazy people like me who state that Thyr is better have the stats, crit rate, and max level band to make up for that 20% drop in damage from Thyr stance.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you want BM bashing buffs just post:

    - BM PVE DPS numbers or testing-based estimates
    - Every other class's PVE DPS numbers or testing-based estimates (primary stat should be the same value as it was for BM testing), so you can show that BM is worse
    - BM PVE damage mitigation numbers, and numbers for health regen/recovery options that pertain to PVE
    - Every other class's PVE damage mitigation numbers and PVE health regen/recovery numbers, so you can show that BM is worse
    - An objective breakdown of BM Battlerage effects, so you can say "these aren't good enough to compensate for weak DPS"
    - An objective breakdown of any BM utility relevant to PVE, so you can say "these aren't good enough to compensate for weak DPS"
    - Any other pertinent issues BM contends with in PVE that do not affect other classes

    Right now the first post in this thread reads kind of like "buffs plzzz", with some facts but a lot of what sound like opinions, to which the obvious responses are "why", "no", or "no plans at this stage, bring it up next classlead round". Clearly stated facts are harder to dismiss.
    image
    LucianusTelendrieth
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