Blademaster bashing and more

edited April 2016 in North of Thera
After hearing several complaints about BM bashing over the weeks, I feel it would be best to bring this topic forward.


While BM did get a slight boost to damage against mobs recently, this still didnt bring them much in par to other classes and they still frankly remain as a bad choice for bashing purposes. I will list why below.


- May not use a shield, thus no access to an SoA

I am not certain why this is, but frankly it is coded in that Blademasters are not allowed to wield a shield, as we get this message when we attempt to: 'True warriors have no need for shields.', which in itself is pretty false.


- Have low armor options

A blademaster may only wear up to ringmail, which alongside not having a shield would make one believe they should have some form of counter to the lack of defense with sublime damage, however that is not the case either.


- Have 0 utility

Battlerage aside, Blademasters have no form of utility to take advantage of in bashing in comparison to other classes. They have no form of speed boosts, no forms of heal, no forms of passive curing, nothing. This makes them highly lacking in higher tier bashing. The sad part is that the abilities are in fact -there-, but cant be used since they require Shin.


- Stances

While Blademasters do have stances to try and switch it up, in their current vulnerable state most blademasters can either rely on Mir or Thyr. Thyr is frankly not much an option, since it reduces damage and you are still pretty vulnerable, thus we turn to Mir. Most blademasters will utilize Mir for bashing, since it gives more defense, however the trade-off is slower attacks in comparison. For high-tier bashing, it is near suicidal to -not- use Mir. This brings us to the last of usable stances, considered a near Taboo: Arash. Arash  will give boosted speed and damage in exchange for a 20% increase in damage. This with an already squishy class is suicidal and thus why no one will touch Arash unless they are fighting some low-damaging mobs (and I mean really low mobs). In conclusion, it's Mir or bust



- Battlerage

The battlerage for Blademasters gives them access to amnesia and weariness, which would likely be based on the assumption to try and reduce incoming damage for the squishy blademasters. Let us think of this in realistic bashing terms, we all know that a basher that is using rage for defensive purposes is then sacrificing damage, and this should generally be used against certain mobs (or groups of) that are deserving of this sacrifice of speed for defense. Thus, in the Blademaster's current state, it would be assumed they should utilize these defensive capabilities far far more often simply to stay alive, thus reducing their speed greatly. It is a far better option to focus on lower mobs and utilize full damage battlerage, rather than higher ones with slower bashing.



Some simple suggestions that I have made before:

* Allow Blademasters to build Shin while bashing. This alone would fix -a loooot- of the problems with their bashing. By giving them Shin, you give them access to use: Healthtrans, Bind, Manatrans and even Phoenix. This would not only saturate their bashing utility but also increase their effectiveness.


* If Shin is out of the question, then adding more damage may be the best answer to their lack of defense: Allow Sternum to be used on mobs? Allow Multislash to be used on mobs? These are general suggestions.
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Comments

  • Wait, Blademasters bash?
  • Correction on the battlerage affs: SHIN DAZE gives stun, not amnesia!

  • Perhaps not utility in the sense of killing well, but mindnet is wonderful if you venture into annwyn or uw.
  • Blademaster hunting doesn't feel like it should be compared to the other classes I've had to time to play with. The damage isn't enough, the survival tools aren't there, no SoA is a huge factor on the defensive end. I'd understand the shortcomings defensively if the damage was there but the class underperforms hunting in all areas.

    I have enough resources to try any setup anyone wants to suggest, Mir, Sanya, Arash "speed-hunting" (it's not even fast). Mir + burst setup as well. Overall I'm simply not impressed.
  • Aesi said:
    Perhaps not utility in the sense of killing well, but mindnet is wonderful if you venture into annwyn or uw.

    Having personally assumed this and tried, I can say without a doubt that unless you have a veil, you'll still die a cruel cruel death. Mindnet doesnt pick up when veiled enter.
  • edited April 2016
    That does happen, yes, but I have also had it save me as a monk, and at least blademasters can still evade somewhat.

    Not bulletproof by any means, but still a credit to them.

    and not a justification to being weak, either. Haven't tried since the damage boost but I was definitely not a fan before it.
  • I like where you're going with your idea,  but I think it's a little needlessly complex. 

    Just adding a flavourful bonus to each stance would be enough for me to love Blademaster hunting. By flavourful, I mean something that shows me that it has an effect, not just altering damage, speed, or resistance.

    Something like this would be cool for monk stances too.

  • There is only one reason why we aren't allowed to gain shin during bashing. One ability that is preventing this...

    That is Phoenix.

    They're worried that if we're able to gain shin from bashing denizens. We'd be able to spam SHIN PHOENIX over and over.


    Though I think if they just cut the shin gain by 50% or less per hit on a denizen. They'd be able to adjust how often we can use SHIN PHOENIX while hunting.

    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • edited April 2016
    Would phoenix even really be that big a deal?

    You wouldn't be able to use it against denizens any more often than you can against players and it's not exactly like you can chain phoenix to make BM invincible normally.

    Hell, the ability to remove all of your afflictions at once is way less useful while bashing since it's not like you're getting out of mobs' lock attempts.

    And as far as just straight-up healing, isn't healthtrans just decidedly more efficient than phoenix?

    But yes, it'd also be pretty easy to balance the bashing utility by just altering the shin gain rate from denizens, especially if it were just a flat amount per denizen sternum strike.

    It'd also be nice from an aesthetic standpoint. The whole thing with BM is combining a slash and a strike and it's sort of weird that that's not represented in their bashing attack - sort of like monk if it bashed with only SDK and no punches.
  • Monks get kaiheal, numb and transmute. BM isn't held back because of Phoenix (lol what, this ability is basically worthless for hunting. It cures some afflictions, which you should already be curing as it is) - it's held back to not be a mini-Monk.

    It's always been odd to me that BM doesn't use their second hand at all during hunting, either by striking or by wielding a shield. It's like we neuter the thematics of the class to consolidate their hunting into one attack. I think this is a bad design, but it could be hard to re-code it to work this way.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Don't monks have to have a hunting buddy (who's considered an enemy) to use kai trance?
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San Diego
    Frederich said:
    Don't monks have to have a hunting buddy (who's considered an enemy) to use kai trance?
    I don't think mob attacks influence trance. 



  • Daeir said:

    Stuff
    Not sure why you'd want Thyr to decrease accuracy, since that's the opposite of its role in other contexts. 

    I also don't know if your numbers were meant to be serious suggestions or just example numbers to give an idea of the general purpose of each stance, but with the numbers you gave, it looks like there'd basically be no reason to use anything other than doya (or arash if you're fighting really weak stuff). Doya would boost dps by about 25% at level 25, up to about 45%  dragon, with no other crit bonuses. If the accuracy reduction for thyr is supposed to mean you miss 15% of the time, it will reduce your dps by a few percent, all told. The damage reduction from Mir would be a huge nerf compared to the current version (unless you mean for it to also keep the current damage reduction, in which case it would be a very small buff), with a minor nerf to dps to boot. I'd have to look up some numbers, but I doubt 1 shin per 10 spent rage would be enough to keep up with natural shin decay; if it were enough to let you healthtrans for a point or two every 5 seconds, it would basically be a 20% dps boost (better than thyr, worse than doya).

    Of course, you could tweak the numbers to get the relationship you want between the stances, but the broader point is that it would be hard to balance something like that in such a way as to not end up with one stance being the clear default choice, with a couple others maybe being situationally useful (not to mention the difficulty of also balancing it against the other classes). I'm sympathetic to the desire for the stances to offer meaningfully different strategies, but it seems like it would most likely end up being a lot of effort just to end up with something that would end up functionally very similar to the current situation.
  • edited April 2016
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • edited April 2016
    Lucianus said:
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    With the recent changes, I'm stepping out on a limb here by saying NOBODY does serpent-tier damage, especially when artied to the teeth. 


  • Dairon said:
    Lucianus said:
    As an artied blademaster with 18 strength, 17 con, and level 3 band. I hunt primarily in Thyr for both offense and defense. If I'm handling mobs that do too much damage. I will go in, quickly land as many hits as I can in thyr, and then retreat to a safe position to recover some health before going back in.

    I don't know why... but I don't feel like mir is effective for me. I only take -100 less damage on mobs that deal a lot of damage per hit like the Knights. It doesn't really justify the lessened damage and slower attack speed for a so-so boost in damage reduction. I'd rather hit and run, and use shin daze and nerveslash to mitigate some of the damage.

    The whole point of bashing as Blademaster for me is to go through mobs as quickly as I possibly can. If I wanted to face-tank every mob. I'll do that in my Bard or Runewarden form.

    *edit: But yeah... I also feel that Blademaster doesn't do serpent-tier damage. Like... Magi with 18 int, Aldar Diadem, and level 3 collar (tested with Lhachman, who has these stats) can do as much as my arash stance drawslash (str 18 + level 3 band) per staffcast while having the defense advantage of SoA + Stoneskin + Diamondskin. So if you want the Blademaster's squishiness to be a trade-off in hunting... can you at least make them deal a little more damage than classes that have the same bashing damage output, but have way more defense options than the Blademaster will ever dream of having?
    With the recent changes, I'm stepping out on a limb here by saying NOBODY does serpent-tier damage, especially when artied to the teeth. 


    Funny thing is that Serp gets both top tier damage and the better defense with SoA + Scalemail. Blademasters, with a weaker ringmail and not being able to wield SoA... why am I hurting myself by not hunting as a serpie instead?

    Hell, with my strength. My bard jabs do as much damage as my thyr drawslash, with both at the same 1.7s speed. Yeah, people can argue, "Oh, but your crits are weaker with Bard." But tell that to standard 40% crit rate with aim-to-kill trait and a huge plethora of defensive options via SoA, hallelujah, gigue, wassail, continuo, anthem, and aria.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • SoA + Scalemail (and scales) might be better defense, but we have pitifully little health to play around with, even with health/con arties. 

    I think I'm at 5000 health with level 2's.. and I can't tank two watch outriders without running.
  • I cant tank 2 of much anything out there as a BM. Not vertani, outriders, prin guards, heck even Mysia pirates give me issues in a cluster.


    I like the idea of the stances having more meaning behind them and more advantages.


    I also would really love it if the AB of each stance gave the actual numbers of buff/debuff given by each stance. Such as:

    Thyr: 15% increase in attack speed, 50% increase in accuracy, -20% decrease in in damage.


    It would really help -a lot- in trying to understand them more and pick the best options, especially for new Blademasters.
  • Lucianus said:

    Hell, with my strength. My bard jabs do as much damage as my thyr drawslash, with both at the same 1.7s speed. Yeah, people can argue, "Oh, but your crits are weaker with Bard." 
    If the damage and speed are the same, so are the crits.

  • Asmodron said:
    I cant tank 2 of much anything out there as a BM. Not vertani, outriders, prin guards, heck even Mysia pirates give me issues in a cluster.


    I like the idea of the stances having more meaning behind them and more advantages.


    I also would really love it if the AB of each stance gave the actual numbers of buff/debuff given by each stance. Such as:

    Thyr: 15% increase in attack speed, 50% increase in accuracy, -20% decrease in in damage.


    It would really help -a lot- in trying to understand them more and pick the best options, especially for new Blademasters.
    It would indeed be nice to have them in the AB files. In the meantime, for reference, the damage adjustments relative to sanya are:
    Thyr: -20%
    Mir: -10%
    Unstanced:  -5%
    Doya: +5%
    Arash: +10%

    Balance times are 10% shorter in thyr and (I think) arash, and 20% longer in Mir and Doya. Arash might only be 5%, I don't remember for sure at the moment.

    The defensive effects are a bit harder to test, but I think Mir and Arash decrease and increase damage taken by something like 20-25%, respectively.

    Accuracy effects are even harder to quantify, but they don't really matter for bashing.
  • I've read conflicting opinions on this so I'm curious. What stance should I bash in?
  • In terms of DPS, Arash>Sanya>Mir, the other stances are all worse than those three. Use the best one you can survive in.

    The more important question is where to bash; should you use Mir and hunt slowly in a higher level area or use Sanya/Arash and hunt more quickly in a lower level area? The answer to that depends greatly on which specific areas you're choosing between, and your level/artefacts, so you'll really just need to try them and compare.
  • Dari said:
    I've read conflicting opinions on this so I'm curious. What stance should I bash in?

    If you're not sitting on a mountain of strength (18 or more) and don't have a level 3 band. Sanya/Arash.

    From my own experience. I clear faster with Thyr, but that's only because of the 18/19 strength + lvl 3 band + level 3 crit pendant makes up for the 20% reduction in damage from using Thyr stance.

    17 strength + level 3 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    18 strength + level 2 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    19 strength + level 2 band + level 3 crit? Sanya/Arash is better.

    Full con build (16-19 con) with minimum 12-16 strength? Sanya/Arash is better.

    Always pick Sanya/Arash if you are wondering which offensive stance to bash in.


    Crazy people like me who state that Thyr is better have the stats, crit rate, and max level band to make up for that 20% drop in damage from Thyr stance.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • If you want BM bashing buffs just post:

    - BM PVE DPS numbers or testing-based estimates
    - Every other class's PVE DPS numbers or testing-based estimates (primary stat should be the same value as it was for BM testing), so you can show that BM is worse
    - BM PVE damage mitigation numbers, and numbers for health regen/recovery options that pertain to PVE
    - Every other class's PVE damage mitigation numbers and PVE health regen/recovery numbers, so you can show that BM is worse
    - An objective breakdown of BM Battlerage effects, so you can say "these aren't good enough to compensate for weak DPS"
    - An objective breakdown of any BM utility relevant to PVE, so you can say "these aren't good enough to compensate for weak DPS"
    - Any other pertinent issues BM contends with in PVE that do not affect other classes

    Right now the first post in this thread reads kind of like "buffs plzzz", with some facts but a lot of what sound like opinions, to which the obvious responses are "why", "no", or "no plans at this stage, bring it up next classlead round". Clearly stated facts are harder to dismiss.
    image
  • Or we can get the people with direct access to the numbers to take a look instead of throwing out estimates. It doesn't take long hunting as a bm to realise something is amiss.
  • Mindshell said:
    Or we can get the people with direct access to the numbers to take a look instead of throwing out estimates. It doesn't take long hunting as a bm to realise something is amiss.
    They've already rebalanced things twice, leaving them in the state they are now. I think you have a better chance of getting the outcome you want if you can highlight the issue clearly.
    image
  • Hmmm, I'm not sure how I would get numbers for other classes (unless I rolled out alts and put lessons in each), but I suppose numbers for BM in comparison to whatever other classes from other players I get is doable.
  • This thread explains a lot about my feeling frustrated over some things ever since getting into this game. Huh.
  • (Disclaimer: I have only played as BM)

    I've never had any issues with bashing as unartied BM and I'm almost Logosian. Hell, I rarely ask for runes/harmony. Any times I have died in PvE have been my own fault instead of the classes fault.

    Sanya/Mir for new areas or vs high DPS mobs. Arash for familiar areas. I notice that it's quicker XP to bash large mobs of weak things over bashing one or two strong things (though I like doing this once in awhile to spice things up). BM's are great at cleaning up trash mobs.

    The main tip I would give to BM's who are starting out is to really take advantage of the CC we have in battlerage (Shin Daze and Nerveslash). The damage mitigation is great vs big boy mobs. Save leapstrike and spinslash for trash mobs. Plus if you are hunting with friends, it makes their lives easier and they won't be as mad at you if you have to run.

    There is no shame in leaving a room to heal for a few seconds. We have fast balance recovery so it feels like we're supposed to do this alot.

    Sure the Endurance drain sucks but that's not a class specific issue.
  • Current damage I do to Orc Soldiers in Dun Valley:

    Race: Xoran

    Bard with 18 strength/14 int and Soulpiercer: 4% damage per jab at 1.7s

    Blademaster with 19 strength and L3 band: 5% damage per drawslash at 2.0s in Sanya

    Runewarden with 20 strength and Dreadblade: 6% damage per focus speed/slaughter at 2.9s


    Currently I hunt Moghedu and Dun as either Bard or Blademaster these days. At level 94, I've finally obtained the critical percentage rate (http://www.achaea.com/forum/critical-hit-guide) to make Blademaster hunting a worthwhile alternative to Bard bashing (cause hunting as a Bard for 4 hours straight can get really boring).

    I personally think, especially with the damage comparisons between my current three classes listed above, Blademasters can out-damage a 2-handed Knight when they have the right stats. Squishiness aside, they're getting pretty close to having a good spot in hunting!
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
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