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Best 1v1 class

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  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    2.2 is probably taking the ultra-conservative estimate. With scimitars, which have the same speed as rapiers, I get 2.1 consistently on my end, which means the actual balance time is likely right at 2.0, on the server/design end. In either case, the Canticle classlead, itself, foresaw the loss of Canticle being a problem for unartefacted Bards, and suggested forged rapier speed be increased to counter the loss of Canticle on the low end.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    It no longer makes sense to buy artefacts. Unartied is hot now. Rangor!
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Dochitha said:
    It no longer makes sense to buy artefacts. Unartied is hot now. Rangor!
    What do I do with my trade in value...

    I learn all my newbies with in game lessens... FEAR MY APOSTATE 



  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    Aerek said:
    2.2 is probably taking the ultra-conservative estimate. With scimitars, which have the same speed as rapiers, I get 2.1 consistently on my end, which means the actual balance time is likely right at 2.0, on the server/design end. In either case, the Canticle classlead, itself, foresaw the loss of Canticle being a problem for unartefacted Bards, and suggested forged rapier speed be increased to counter the loss of Canticle on the low end.
    My suggestion was to make canticle bring voice balance a tiny bit quicker. So it works for both artied and unartied folks, cushion the loss of speed for the artied, while also making unartied viable, and doesn't make the distance of artied and unartied rapier speed closer (which kinda reduce the value of a SP). 
    Aesgar
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That is my thought. With my SP, I still jab at 1.7s and voice at 2.2, even without canticle. This still makes kills very viable and not too difficult. Locking is a bit more finely tuned, but accentato-stacking and double-breaks are still very doable (@dochitha was showing off double-mangles on legs with his SP). If you mix that with Percussia, SP Bard really just went from "Entirely over-the-top OP" to "A bit less OP."

    Now, I do like that I don't have to feel like I have to rely on a harmonic to push my offensive. Not that I was slow without Canticle, but it was hard to shake the mentality of "I am less effective without canticle" in any form of combat. I haven't had a chance to test forged rapiers to see how viable the offense is with one, but I can tell you, based on a chart, it took about 5.4s to bury one venom aff under para, and 7.6s before I got to the point of burying impatience from voice. Not terrible times, overall (about 4 jabs and 3 voice balances) to bury two afflictions. And that is with perfect chart-based curing. 

    Really, with my SP, all the classlead did was make me grumble at it until I went into the arena and still smashed someone competent's face. Then I kind of shrugged and said "Oh, not so bad still", and went about smashing faces. 
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2016
    Calira said:
    Unartied Bard was viable before the nerf this classlead round. Unfortunately, losing Canticle hurt them far more than it hurt the SP Bards that were the target of that classlead.
    And they approved it so quickly without hesitation too. >_> Without taking arguments about latency into account and looking at other alternatives like toning down the balance reduction of canticle or adjusting the max speed on jabs/soulpiercers.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Shaman est bon
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2016
    I do think scaling down Artie rapier speeds would've been better than losing Canticle. If speeds are just scaled up to compensate, you end up in basically the exact same situation as if Canticle stayed but arties scaled down.

    Either way, it's not just going to be SP bards who are hit because SP obviously has to stay the best. All the arties had to slow down, but you could for example keep unartied at 231, then go 234 > 237 > 241 from there, and keep Canticle.

    But yeah, the main annoyance is the inability to use limb breaks as effectively unartefacted. Could always just leave the huge rapier speed disparity and remove or tone down the voice disparity between unartied and artied, I guess. But I like it better the other way.

    I guess you arrive at near the same thing without canticle with something like 235 (unartied) > 238 > 242 > 246. Then you don't have to wonder whytf scimitars are faster than rapiers too.
    Kiet
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Classless. Quit your class, pick up proficiency in a weapon and start swinging. You will be dragon in no time, and then it won't matter.  

    And weapon proficiency only costs 100 lessons. As opposed to 3x 1726 lessons!

  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Xinna said:
    I do think scaling down Artie rapier speeds would've been better than losing Canticle. If speeds are just scaled up to compensate, you end up in basically the exact same situation as if Canticle stayed but arties scaled down.

    Either way, it's not just going to be SP bards who are hit because SP obviously has to stay the best. All the arties had to slow down, but you could for example keep unartied at 231, then go 234 > 237 > 241 from there, and keep Canticle.

    But yeah, the main annoyance is the inability to use limb breaks as effectively unartefacted. Could always just leave the huge rapier speed disparity and remove or tone down the voice disparity between unartied and artied, I guess. But I like it better the other way.

    I guess you arrive at near the same thing without canticle with something like 235 (unartied) > 238 > 242 > 246. Then you don't have to wonder whytf scimitars are faster than rapiers too.
    All I know is that I can just pair up with a level 3 scimitar DC knight or another SP Bard with canticle up. And the core problem with 1.5s attacks keeping up with herb balance to deliver perma-paralysis remains the same.

    They picked the easiest quick-fix route by changing canticle to not affect the user. Which only solves the problem in a 1v1 scenario.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,252 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1v1 was the only problem. Things are supposed to be stronger in teams.
    AerekDochitha
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Farrah said:
    1v1 was the only problem. Things are supposed to be stronger in teams.
    But how strong in teams?

    I'd rather sacrifice a bit of that speed boost to have a balance in both 1v1 and teams.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xinna said:
    I do think scaling down Artie rapier speeds would've been better than losing Canticle. If speeds are just scaled up to compensate, you end up in basically the exact same situation as if Canticle stayed but arties scaled down.

    Either way, it's not just going to be SP bards who are hit because SP obviously has to stay the best. All the arties had to slow down, but you could for example keep unartied at 231, then go 234 > 237 > 241 from there, and keep Canticle.

    But yeah, the main annoyance is the inability to use limb breaks as effectively unartefacted. Could always just leave the huge rapier speed disparity and remove or tone down the voice disparity between unartied and artied, I guess. But I like it better the other way.

    I guess you arrive at near the same thing without canticle with something like 235 (unartied) > 238 > 242 > 246. Then you don't have to wonder whytf scimitars are faster than rapiers too.
    If we're being honest, I would rather forged weapons be balanced around base viability, and artefact weapons be removed from the actual weaponry code and give the same 5%/10%/15% or similar end bonuses that you see from things like BM bands, Dirks, Bows, etc. Having to balance around the top end (Soulpiercers, L3 Scimitar speeds, etc) while constrained by a strict, 3 tiered system and archaic Weaponry code means that buffing forged weapons requires either buffing L3s to preserve meaningful difference between L1-3, or squeezing the L1 and L2 levels together, which means those levels have very bad cost:benefit ratios.

    Knights had the same problem for a while, L1 scimitars were required for consistent DSB setups, and all they really needed was buffing forged weapon speed to 235, but that would have forced L1s and L2s into a confined 9-point stat range between forged and L3 that would not have been worth 350 or 800cr at all. Thankfully, Makarios worked some unorthodox magic to solve that particular problem, but I felt it was clear that the nature of artefact weapons were a major obstacle to what would otherwise appear as common-sense tweaks to weapon stats.

    Either way, we're looking at a major change to weapon artefacts, and that conversation involves financial and business aspects as much as combat balance, so I'm not holding my breath.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    DochithaIsrayhlLucianusTael
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    I like @Aerek's idea about standardizing it to 5/10/15%, while having skills based around forged weapon. That Artefact only afford you more room for error, instead of giving you viability over extra setups.
    Israyhl
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I like it being more percentile based, too. Having the stats the way they are, especially with Bard's harmonics, make balancing on the extreme ends an arduous task at best, an impossible one at worst. 

    Just don't do weapon runes. They are horrible, expensive, and make weapons classes stupidly expensive. Especially as done in Aetolia and Lusternia. 
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Would be easier to balance, if they just changed baseline speed across the board and went the Imperian route. Make arti weapons increase damage only, not speed.

  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aerek said:
    Xinna said:
    I do think scaling down Artie rapier speeds would've been better than losing Canticle. If speeds are just scaled up to compensate, you end up in basically the exact same situation as if Canticle stayed but arties scaled down.

    Either way, it's not just going to be SP bards who are hit because SP obviously has to stay the best. All the arties had to slow down, but you could for example keep unartied at 231, then go 234 > 237 > 241 from there, and keep Canticle.

    But yeah, the main annoyance is the inability to use limb breaks as effectively unartefacted. Could always just leave the huge rapier speed disparity and remove or tone down the voice disparity between unartied and artied, I guess. But I like it better the other way.

    I guess you arrive at near the same thing without canticle with something like 235 (unartied) > 238 > 242 > 246. Then you don't have to wonder whytf scimitars are faster than rapiers too.
    If we're being honest, I would rather forged weapons be balanced around base viability, and artefact weapons be removed from the actual weaponry code and give the same 5%/10%/15% or similar end bonuses that you see from things like BM bands, Dirks, Bows, etc. Having to balance around the top end (Soulpiercers, L3 Scimitar speeds, etc) while constrained by a strict, 3 tiered system and archaic Weaponry code means that buffing forged weapons requires either buffing L3s to preserve meaningful difference between L1-3, or squeezing the L1 and L2 levels together, which means those levels have very bad cost:benefit ratios.

    Knights had the same problem for a while, L1 scimitars were required for consistent DSB setups, and all they really needed was buffing forged weapon speed to 235, but that would have forced L1s and L2s into a confined 9-point stat range between forged and L3 that would not have been worth 350 or 800cr at all. Thankfully, Makarios worked some unorthodox magic to solve that particular problem, but I felt it was clear that the nature of artefact weapons were a major obstacle to what would otherwise appear as common-sense tweaks to weapon stats.

    Either way, we're looking at a major change to weapon artefacts, and that conversation involves financial and business aspects as much as combat balance, so I'm not holding my breath.
    Aerek said:
    Xinna said:
    I do think scaling down Artie rapier speeds would've been better than losing Canticle. If speeds are just scaled up to compensate, you end up in basically the exact same situation as if Canticle stayed but arties scaled down.

    Either way, it's not just going to be SP bards who are hit because SP obviously has to stay the best. All the arties had to slow down, but you could for example keep unartied at 231, then go 234 > 237 > 241 from there, and keep Canticle.

    But yeah, the main annoyance is the inability to use limb breaks as effectively unartefacted. Could always just leave the huge rapier speed disparity and remove or tone down the voice disparity between unartied and artied, I guess. But I like it better the other way.

    I guess you arrive at near the same thing without canticle with something like 235 (unartied) > 238 > 242 > 246. Then you don't have to wonder whytf scimitars are faster than rapiers too.
    If we're being honest, I would rather forged weapons be balanced around base viability, and artefact weapons be removed from the actual weaponry code and give the same 5%/10%/15% or similar end bonuses that you see from things like BM bands, Dirks, Bows, etc. Having to balance around the top end (Soulpiercers, L3 Scimitar speeds, etc) while constrained by a strict, 3 tiered system and archaic Weaponry code means that buffing forged weapons requires either buffing L3s to preserve meaningful difference between L1-3, or squeezing the L1 and L2 levels together, which means those levels have very bad cost:benefit ratios.

    Knights had the same problem for a while, L1 scimitars were required for consistent DSB setups, and all they really needed was buffing forged weapon speed to 235, but that would have forced L1s and L2s into a confined 9-point stat range between forged and L3 that would not have been worth 350 or 800cr at all. Thankfully, Makarios worked some unorthodox magic to solve that particular problem, but I felt it was clear that the nature of artefact weapons were a major obstacle to what would otherwise appear as common-sense tweaks to weapon stats.

    Either way, we're looking at a major change to weapon artefacts, and that conversation involves financial and business aspects as much as combat balance, so I'm not holding my breath.
    It'd be cool if they took the cost of artefacts for 2-hand and dual wielding into account too.

    For example, attaching a single band/arti-rune that gives a 15% bonus to speed to 1-hand weapons, but would only give 7.5% bonus on a 2-handed weapon, which would mean you would have to attach two bands/arti-runes for a full 15% bonus.

    This would allow us to balance the cost of artefact weapons. 1600cr for two lv3 bands/arti-runes, 800cr for 2 lv2 bands/arti-runes, etc. 

    Of course... there's still the problem with SnB users... Maybe change the weight of SoA to buckler speed? :|


    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
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