Dual wield knight specialisation artifact weapon costs

Nakari

And with how much damage they deal, it's not as if it matters a lot of the time, anyways.

Ilessia

This may not be as related to the OP as it should be but I detect a detestable amount of vertical design here that seems counter to the variety that Weaponmastery introduced for the Knight classes.

Sure, you can use a Broadsword and a Tower shield for S&B but, really, why would you? I for one know that I just don't want to be held down to a Buckler because it's the most efficient. 

Are dual axes viable in any way? 

I think these questions have their place even amongst the theories and balancing issues of the artefacts that drive the upper tiers of combat. 

And before the obvious rebuttals are leveled at me, I understand that you can bring out the Broadsword and big shield for bashing or in some circumstantial incidents one thing might have a place over the clear winner as far as strategy. It's just that when that clear winner becomes really the only competitive choice it becomes bland really, really fast. 

Aerek

Buckler maximizes speed, but is only really required for certain end-game setups. Banded/SoA is completely viable for most tactics, (including Disembowel) and does higher damage. Speed is king in combat overall, so broadsword is not a weapon you'd use as your standard, but has specialty applications such as prepping through parry with fewer hits (less of a problem these days, though it can throw off people's reverse limb counts if they don't differentiate between longsword/broadsword slice/rend) and Rend/Smash with a broadsword/tower actually deals a monstrous amount of damage. The balance is about 4 seconds, but I take around 33% of my max health from a Rend/Smash, and that's through fullplate/Algiz. Tower is also fair for Raze/Smash through shield/rebound if you're trying to spike someone out, though your speed suffers a bit.

Dual axes are pretty painful, especially of the Runewarden Hugalaz variety, and you can damage-spike someone out if they let you. More realistically, axes are valuable for RSL, which doesn't respect weapon speed but does respect weapon damage, and as a post-Disembowel spike if the target survives. They can also be used to prep parried targets in fewer hits, or throw off someone's reverse count if they don't differentiate between scimitar/axe hits.

I'm not really sure where your haughtiness is coming from, and I'm not sure your logic makes sense. You don't want to be forced to choose "efficient" options to be competitive, and think that leads to combat becoming bland, but if the opposite was true and the different weapons were purely cosmetic, then all weapons/approaches would be mechanically identical and that would be bland. Weapon diversity was the point of Weaponmastery in the first place. Before this, we all just used rapiers, so 4 different styles each with different strengths and weaknesses using different weapons is pretty impressive already, in my book.

Each spec is designed with a "primary" weapon and a secondary option that's good for certain things. Some styles, like DWB and 2H, can technically be effective using either option exclusively, but that puts them at a disadvantage. (2H's Brain isn't near as strong as Disembowel, for example, and DWB -can- just flail-damage a lot of folks out, but can't Pulp without morningstars) I guess you want each weapon style to be further subdivided by weapon choice, with each weapon having its own, standalone combat approach that is somehow unique but equal in all respects to other options available? Sure, that would be wonderful in a perfect world, but that's pie-in-the-sky thinking and we can't gloss over what a monumental amount of work that would be, (especially since a similar monumental amount of work that's gone into Weaponmastery already) so you might be setting your expectations to an unreasonable standard.

Trey

@Aerek basically said every thought I have on the matter. It'd be fun to have an additional weapon in each spec, but that's solely a cosmetic thing to me, not an actual need for a middle-road option. Maybe 2h = halberd, SNB = spear, DWC = handaxe and DWB = forged mace, maybe? I don't know. 

Ilessia

I can agree and there's plenty of value to @Aerek 's points. I also applaud the amount of changes and don't wish to take any of them for granted. I value the insight into what those weapons can do, too, as I am adjusting to this as someone who was around during the reign of rapiers. Even then though I wanted to be able to differentiate myself even a little bit. There were those people who one would encounter from time to time doing passably or better with scimitars, or in the case of Goryllin, a broad and an axe. (Artied or not, this was a bit of diversity)

Asking for that diversity isn't an attack on the work our devs have done. Weaponmastery has made things a lot more interesting but when I returned I was slightly surprised that weapons found their place locked down into those specialisations. I can live without Scimitar/Axe & Shield, for instance, but the way the game shifted in terms of balance probably couldn't play host to that setup. 

I'm probably not making much of a point so I'll trail off here with why the diversity is important to me.. Cosmetic/Aesthetic can be everything to some people. It's why the descriptors were intended to be a driving force and diversification for forged weapons, why we customise our artefact weapons and why stat packs freed more people up to play what they wanted to play instead of feeling competitively pressured to be a Rajamala. I like @Trey 's ideas on other weapons and it brings up even more ideas on how those things could behave. But no, I don't expect sub-category inception. I just happen to have an aesthetic dissonance imagining my fantasy warrior doing battle with a massive dragon with a shield the size of a dinner plate. 

Exelethril

Any updates in regards to a change of policy on this?

Morthif

It's supposed to be released soon

Penwize

Morthif said:

It's supposed to be released soon Soon™.

Fixed that for you!

Telendrieth

Trey said:

@Aerek basically said every thought I have on the matter. It'd be fun to have an additional weapon in each spec, but that's solely a cosmetic thing to me, not an actual need for a middle-road option. Maybe 2h = halberd, SNB = spear, DWC = handaxe and DWB = forged mace, maybe? I don't know. 

Give me the hell out of some spear action with SnB and I'd be a happy little mini hoplite.

Khairt

I too dislike the over abundance of rondeleros, where are my pike columns? I'd kill for a decent landsknecht.

Trey

Give me a grosse messer anyday.

Iosefka

Any update on this? Tempted to buy a pair of weapons but if there's something in the works I wonder if I should just hold off for now.

Kenway

Antonius said:

You can just PUT RAPIER IN SCABBARD####! Or unwield/sheathe prior to switching class.

When i made my first character years and years ago you could use this and DRAW RAPIER to bypass the runeblade wielding restriction. Hugalaz or eiwhaz bard with +10 speed RIP. (I still sucked tho)

Exelethril

Please consider scaling the costs so there won't be such a huge disparity of single weapon specs versus double weapon specs. The unfairness in pricing is making Achaea's visible knight variety dull and artefact costs are the singular reason.

Edit : @Makarios / @Sarapis

Nylian

I've played both SnB and 2h. I like having arties. I'm turned off to DwC and DwB because of the price barrier.  I know that this is in part my attitude, but once you've fought with arties, hard to go back!  I tend to get level 2's.  If I could get both level 2 scimi's for 800cr I'd change now.

Ashmond

Bumping this, curious why this was still not done. I had to shell out 1600cr for L2 Scims, sent a message asking why we still have to pay double 3.2k or quadruple 6.4cr, for just both sets of L3 weapons only, for duel spec knights compared to nearly all classes needing mainly one.

"Greetings! Regarding issue #81831: The benefits of artefact weapons for different classes has been weighed carefully, and the impact offered is sufficient for the upfront cost. Even a single weapon conveys a significant benefit! Please don't hesitate to use ISSUE ME <your issue> if you have any further questions or concerns!"

Stated single is useful, surly not as a duel spec class?

Adding admin: @Tecton , @Nicola , @Makarios

Edited: added admin.

Thanks,
Ash

Dochitha

Ashmond said:

Bumping this, curious why this was still not done. I had to shell out 1600cr for L2 Scims, sent a message asking why we still have to pay double 3.2k or quadruple 6.4cr, for just both sets of L3 weapons only, for duel spec knights compared to nearly all classes needing mainly one.

"Greetings! Regarding issue #81831: The benefits of artefact weapons for different classes has been weighed carefully, and the impact offered is sufficient for the upfront cost. Even a single weapon conveys a significant benefit! Please don't hesitate to use ISSUE ME <your issue> if you have any further questions or concerns!"

Stated single is useful, surly not as a duel spec class?

Adding admin: @Tecton , @Nicola , @Makarios

Edited: added admin.

Thanks,
Ash

For a long time I pondered the same. But then I justified it myself: You get a 4-in-1 class, without needing class slots and lessons. Hence you can put that credit into weapons. That said, I wouldn't say no to lower prices, but it will need better idea than just outright drop in price.

Ashmond

Still crazy prices though, to get complete benifit of DWC for damage and speed, would need L3 Scims and L3 Battlaxes @ 6400cr.

That class switch you spoke of say, switch to DWB would be another 6400cr again for L3 Morningstars and Flails. Would cost many, many times less to multiclass another slot for another class with a single L3 weapon requirement and supporting artifacts.

Just to bring this home 6400cr is around $1800 just for L3 weapons nothing else.

Sobriquet

You certainly don't need 4 level 3 weapons as any knight class, however, being able to have the choice should be there. 

It's again proof of how stupidly expensive this game is. 

Lanre

Ashmond said:

Still crazy prices though, to get complete benifit of DWC for damage and speed, would need L3 Scims and L3 Battlaxes @ 6400cr.

That class switch you spoke of say, switch to DWB would be another 6400cr again for L3 Morningstars and Flails. Would cost many, many times less to multiclass another slot for another class with a single L3 weapon requirement and supporting artifacts.

Just to bring this home 6400cr is around $1800 just for L3 weapons nothing else.

Seconded, I went with artefact flails at first, which is great for raids, but then I realized "I need artefact morningstars to be any good at 1v1 and hunting." It's not entirely right that you would need to pay that heavy a cost of entry to be able to experience the entire breadth of your class. 

Austere

Ashmond said:

"Greetings! Regarding issue #81831: The benefits of artefact weapons for different classes has been weighed carefully, and the impact offered is sufficient for the upfront cost. Even a single weapon conveys a significant benefit! Please don't hesitate to use ISSUE ME <your issue> if you have any further questions or concerns!"

Even a single weapon will royally jack up your limb counting if you've not tested every single break point with both weapons.  It took me weeks just to get to where I was mediocre at counting limbs with two different weapon damage values, and I still run into rsl breaking a limb early because I wielded my swords wrong or miss figured by 1 freaking hit because clumsiness caught my lesser sword. Admittedly, I'm rocking a level 3 and level 0, so the gap is greater,  but I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.

Legitimately the only perk is it makes torso predict a shit ton more difficult. If you don't know what torso damage is, they damn sure don't! Dueled @Atalkez like a year ago and got a double torso dsb thanks to neither of us knowing where torso damage was and ss not smart curing higher level breaks.

Exxia

ya'll need PREDICT

Highlight that ish

Austere

Exxia said:

ya'll need PREDICT

Highlight that ish

Is predict accurate enough to tell me whether rsl will break a limb or not, which is dependant on which weapon I have in my left hand? We need better predict. 

Armali

It shouldn't. It already fails for BM, especially in Thyr, and since DWC limb damage values are smaller, I don't see any reason why it would be successful for DWC.

Austere

Armali said:

It shouldn't. It already fails for BM, especially in Thyr, and since DWC limb damage values are smaller, I don't see any reason why it would be successful for DWC.

Austere said:

We need better predict. 

Ashmond

The cost of Duel Wield Weapons got rejected this classlead as well

Sobriquet

Easiest way to make a change is for everyone to boycott buying them. But that's a non starter as the Doch's and Minifie's of this world still will anyway. 

Edit - In fact, you've proved people will buy them by just shelling out 1600cr, so they'l keep them that price until you buy the next two in 12 months time.

Ashmond

Sobriquet said:

Easiest way to make a change is for everyone to boycott buying them. But that's a non starter as the Doch's and Minifie's of this world still will anyway. 

Edit - In fact, you've proved people will buy them by just shelling out 1600cr, so they'l keep them that price until you buy the next two in 12 months time.

Aye, but did not spend $$$ to do so though, traded shizzle in as I can't afford much these days. But that was just for L2 Scims only mind. Its another 1600cr to upgrade those to L3s. There is zero chance I can make big purchases in Achaea anymore, period. Smaller ones maybe, but not dropping $500 for a L3 upgrade where most classes get their L3s at the cost of our L2s.

^ This is even worse for DWBs than my DWC though as they'll want both sets of pairs to be flexible. 

With people paying anyway, if you like Knight and Duel Wield you don't have a choice. Either pay double or quaduple for weapon artifacts or pick a different class, limits options and new players will be put off if they liked the knight flavor. 

Iron Elite is all I have these days, so it'll be that, some small purchases now and then and bashing for the upgrade. 

Minifie

Sobriquet said:

Easiest way to make a change is for everyone to boycott buying them. But that's a non starter as the Doch's and Minifie's of this world still will anyway. 

Edit - In fact, you've proved people will buy them by just shelling out 1600cr, so they'l keep them that price until you buy the next two in 12 months time.

To be fair they had eagle in the name... I’m a sucker for birbs