Dual wield knight specialisation artifact weapon costs

Dunn

Report #21
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Submitted by: You Status : Rejected
Skill : Weaponmastery Ability : Artifact weapons
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Problem:
The required cost in artifacts between the weaponmastery specs is variable. For
two handed spec and SNB, a single weapon for 350 cr is the first level. For dual
cutting and blunt, however, a 700 cr investment is required for the first level.
For the statistics increase afforded by the one handed weapons, the cost is far
too high
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Solution #1:
Sell the artifact DWC and DWB weapons in a pair at the cost of 350 credits or
separately for half of that.
Solution #2:
Reduce the cost substantially.
Solution #3:
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Decision:
Not within the scope of classleads, probably better served discussing on forums.
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Discuss. I have two level 1 scimitars and paid a level 2 price in any other spec. Buying a single level 1 scimitar does not afford me the same benefit as a level 1 longsword, for instance, with an objective look at the weapon stats gained.

Sobriquet

Fully agree. My 2h sword was 350cr and does perfectly fine. Why do other specializations, DWB for example, have to pay 700cr to get that lvl 1 bonus?

Aerek

Posted and liked it, because I can only like the OP's once.

Pretty glaring issue ever since new Knight styles came out. Not like I want more Braincrusher flails in the world, but it's pretty rough to spend 3200 or 6400cr (for both sets) for the same level of hypothetical advantage that others get for half that.

Edit: Apparently I can't like my own post anymore. I thought this was America.

Cooper

100% agreed, though I agree even more with "dual" specs just using one weapon twice, instead of needing two weapons (morphing weapon would allow me to go different specs!).

If the situation were reversed, and we were trying to argue why dual cutting/dual blunt needed twice the cost as S&B/2H, I don't think we could come up with any reasonable argument.

Dunn

I always liked Imperian's style of just using a single one-handed weapon and attacking twice with it. Would lead to dual knights gaining the ability to use a shield tho, which would be a bit much.

Exelethril

I agree, I don't think price points should be a choice factor within specs of the same class.

Then again, there's the argument of certain classes costing more than others to artie out etc. I don't think that's a fair measurement though, for some reason I can't quite pinpoint presently.

Aodfionn

Iirc, Tecton said sometime in January of 15 that they would be bundling the scims, morning stars/flairls and things like that for dual-wielded weapons. 

There is no reason other than profit not to offer this. I hope this gets implemented. 

Rom

http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/303736/#Comment_303736

Good topic, above is a link to me bringing it up in the Ask Your Producer thread earlier today.

Tecton's response
"We've pondered it previously, but nothing concrete was decided."

Bodes well, seems they could be open to it if a good solution is found. I like the idea of purchasing a single scimitar that splits into two somehow. I don't think it would hurt the classes much to even make the dual weapons a single item that is technically twohanded but reads as being in both hands. That's a kinda lame implementation though, and hurts things like wielding a shield while arcing. 

Tahquil

Aerek said stuff.

Edit: Apparently I can't like my own post anymore. I thought this was America.

THIS IS ACHAEA! -chest kick-

Dortheron

Rom said:

http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/303736/#Comment_303736

Good topic, above is a link to me bringing it up in the Ask Your Producer thread earlier today.

Tecton's response
"We've pondered it previously, but nothing concrete was decided."

Bodes well, seems they could be open to it if a good solution is found. I like the idea of purchasing a single scimitar that splits into two somehow. I don't think it would hurt the classes much to even make the dual weapons a single item that is technically twohanded but reads as being in both hands. That's a kinda lame implementation though, and hurts things like wielding a shield while arcing. 

How about instead of buying the actual weapon, you're buying something like a magical weapon "shard" that you mold into the final product instead of buying the weapon itself. Two-handed weapons get split into two different weapons (so scimitars, battle axes, flails, morningstars, bastard swords and warhammers). Blood Shard (lvl 1), Psi Shard (lvl 2), Soul Shard (lvl 3)
syntax: MOLD <shard###> INTO <weapon> [AND <weapon>]

MOLD SHARD INTO LONGSWORD
You shape the Blood Shard into a weapon of your choice, forging a Meteoric Longsword from the core of your being.

MOLD SHARD1234 INTO SCIMITAR AND SCIMITAR
You shape the Blood Shard into a weapon of your choice, forging a pair of Scimitar of Hawk's from the core of your being.

MOLD 98765 INTO BASTARD WARHAMMER
You shape the Soul Shard into a weapon of your choice, forging a Logosian Broadsword and a Hellforge Warhammer from the core of your being.


Maybe make it so that if the two weapons don't pair together that you can't mold the shard
MOLD SHARD INTO BASTARD SCIMITAR
The Soul Shard quivers momentarily and then stops, your heart divided by two incompatible weapons.

Rom

Whether or not that's a good idea, that is an auction artefact that belongs to two individuals who probably enjoy the exclusivity.
Also with the inception of spec changing artie on the horizon, they probably want to promote separate weapon purchases rather than eliminating them.

Minifie

I don't mind spending 350-1600 per knight spec, but 1600 for 2 and 3200 for 2 is just silly. Even if you made it so purchasing the knight spec change artefact first was required and then that enables the 1h weapons to be buy one get one free would be ok for me as well.

Mindshell

They can throw snb an artie buckler and that'd situate them in a similar place to dwc and dwb pricing. But that still leaves 2h as the discount spec

Dunn

But an artied buckler wouldn't matter. Pretty sure SNB overall speed includes shield type and not the stats of the shield.

Aerek

Watch this only succeed in raising bastard/hammer prices.

Jhui

Mindshell said:

They can throw snb an artie buckler and that'd situate them in a similar place to dwc and dwb pricing. But that still leaves 2h as the discount spec

that's still 1600x2 (long/broad) and 800x2(soa/buckler) compared to 1600x2 (scim/scim or flail/flail) and 1600x2 (morningstar/morningstar or battleaxe/battleaxe)

and arguably broad is not useful in any circumstance while double baxe and double morningstars are

Anedhel

I really would love the option of just using one sword twice, like Dunn said. That'd be so good

(And please make saber a customisable base item for scimitar, while you're at it? Ilysm.)

Xaden

Hmmmm.... Dropping 2 lvl3 scimis to 1600 CR would be so tasty. Free upgrades ftfw

Dairon

I know this has probably been brought up EVERY time knight weapons are discussed, but I'll raise it again, just because I'm curious as to what the general opinion is. 

Most classes have 1 artefact that affects their PVP as well as bashing. (dual wield knights being the exception). 
Serpents have it so that you want a lash for hunting, dirk for PK. Unless you're still doing TF hunting (I didn't really enjoy it tbh), the spheres don't overlap. 
If a DWC knight was to purchase a level 2 longsword and a level 1 longsword, both purchases would still benefit both hunting and bashing speeds. 

Would this fall under balancing out weapon artefacts in general? 

Minifie

Dairon said:

I know this has probably been brought up EVERY time knight weapons are discussed, but I'll raise it again, just because I'm curious as to what the general opinion is. 

Most classes have 1 artefact that affects their PVP as well as bashing. (dual wield knights being the exception). 
Serpents have it so that you want a lash for hunting, dirk for PK. Unless you're still doing TF hunting (I didn't really enjoy it tbh), the spheres don't overlap. 
If a DWC knight was to purchase a level 2 longsword and a level 1 longsword, both purchases would still benefit both hunting and bashing speeds. 

Would this fall under balancing out weapon artefacts in general? 

I think the issue is that if you bought a level 3 lash you'd get the bonus of the level 3 lash for anything involved, if you buy a level 1 scim and a level 3 scim, it's less effective (from what I've mathed) than buying 2 level 2 scims. You HAVE to doubly buy to get equal effect of any other class single buying. Even though as Sylvan I bought a diadem and a collar, I got the benefit from both even without the other.

Procelean

I might be wrong on this, but since the weaponmastery changes, the dwc/dwb weapons are primarily designed to be used by their respective knight classes right? Why not just cut the cost in half for those weapons? With the balancing changes (not sure if shatter or any other pvp skills would be affected too badly) the classes should have their class specific attacks that are better than using a single dw weapon. This way you preserve the functionality of having two phyical weapons (for customisation and rp tomfoolery).

Except maybe monks, from what I hear they might be better off with jabbing with a l3 and soa for bashing.

Anedhel

2400cr for a pretty mediocre bashing option can't possibly be better than getting gauntlets and knuckles as a monk, or a level 3 band and gauntlets or a better sip ring or something as a Blademaster (and I think those are the two classes people hate bashing as the most, atm?), can it?

Dairon

Minifie said:

Dairon said:

I know this has probably been brought up EVERY time knight weapons are discussed, but I'll raise it again, just because I'm curious as to what the general opinion is. 

Most classes have 1 artefact that affects their PVP as well as bashing. (dual wield knights being the exception). 
Serpents have it so that you want a lash for hunting, dirk for PK. Unless you're still doing TF hunting (I didn't really enjoy it tbh), the spheres don't overlap. 
If a DWC knight was to purchase a level 2 longsword and a level 1 longsword, both purchases would still benefit both hunting and bashing speeds. 

Would this fall under balancing out weapon artefacts in general? 

I think the issue is that if you bought a level 3 lash you'd get the bonus of the level 3 lash for anything involved, if you buy a level 1 scim and a level 3 scim, it's less effective (from what I've mathed) than buying 2 level 2 scims. You HAVE to doubly buy to get equal effect of any other class single buying. Even though as Sylvan I bought a diadem and a collar, I got the benefit from both even without the other.

Right, I understand that. But what I'm saying is at least you get an increase in both PVP and PVE speed/damage, no matter how insignificant it is compared to the amount of credits spent. 
With serpents, if I bought a level 3 lash and a level 1 dirk, the level 3 lash will have a very very very small effect on combat (if any. I think it's like a 0.1 second flay speed increase from a forged lash to a level 3 lash. It's also super random but I can't check since my ping is so high) That's it. 
With level 3 dirk and a level 1 lash, my hunting will not get faster using jab over garrote. 

Dunn

Little off topic as whip speed for bashing vs dex (Main component in the flat formula afaik) for flay speed (only real whip purpose in combat) are different. 

My dilemma is I want to be at a level 3 Artied speed, but need to spend double what I would spend in a single weapon spec. Simple. @Tecton

Anedhel

I'd really really like it to be single-sword used twice, too. So much better-looking :O

I know it won't be changed, but that just makes me sadpanda.

Ahmet

Anedhel said:

I'd really really like it to be single-sword used twice, too. So much better-looking :O

Much better looking and much more logical from a real-life combat point of view. Buuuuut,

I know it won't be changed, but that just makes me sadpanda. 

Mizik

On topic:

I have not seen counter justification for this not to be done.

I believe this deliberate oversight's potential dollars have already been squeezed. Let's do the right thing.

Trey

Even if it's not a 50% reduction in cost, something to reduce the disparity in price doesn't seem unreasonable. 33%, or even 25% would cut a decent chunk off of the arties, particularly in the case of lvl 3s.

Anedhel

I'd be fine with a pair of level 3's costing 2400, bringing it in line with SnB, yeah.

Borran

But SnB is 1600cr for lunch artiest scimmy  + ~800g for a forged buckler. I haven't seen an artiest buckler released yet.

Dunn

An Artie buckler would likely only increase the damage of the combo, honestly. I don't think you can say SNB costs are anything but the long sword.