Order system handled by administration

Utianima

Hi,

Given the nature of how divine orders slowly die out after a divinity goes dormant/inactive, I would love for there to be a way to facilitate "keeping alive" the order in the absence of their divine.

A problem as it stands now is that the administration won't act on behalf of the divine. And I respect that. I suspect it has to do with policies, the amount of work involved, and perhaps there not being the best system in place to accommodate for this.

So I was thinking about a couple of problems and solutions, and this thread is meant to get a discussion on this, and perhaps end up with easy to implement IDEAS that can be implemented if the administration like what we come up with.

Problem: Induction into the order stops. Solution: Make a command, for the inner and/or outer order head to PROPOSE <CHARACTER> FOR INDUCTION <REASON>. The reason message could simple be PLEASE SEE THE SCROLL OHELP PERSONNAME, WHERE ALL HER ACCOMPLISHMENTS HAVE BEEN RECORDED. That way, if the divine is dormant, and given that there is a pre-approved set of requirements, someone from the administration can quickly review the REASON, and induct. Maybe no theatrics/ceremony if the divine is inactive, but at least new people can join.

Problem: Order head goes inactive. Solution: Make a command, or piggyback of some of the city politics system (I am not well versed in that), that makes it possible to challenge the order head, and he/she is replaced by votes if not responding.

Problem: Essence counts never resetting. Solution: Make essence counts reset on a certain interval chosen by the divine. This would demand the same to be the case for all the divine, with perhaps a maximum time set to 3 or 6 months.

Problem: No favours. Solution: A PROPOSE <CHARACTER> FOR FAVOUR <REASON> type command, which could refer to essence count, heads submitted, etc.

Problem: Hard to have competitions or events with prices. Solution: Have a way to preapprove prices such as favours, custom items, etc.

Problem: No new order hall items or sellable wares from order NPC. Solution: Submit proposals for new items, perhaps piggybacking off of existing tradeskills structure, and once ever 3-12 months every order gets at least one item approved.

Let me know what you guys think!

I would just love for it to be possible to get some order action even if your divine has been gone for in-game decades, or even centuries. And if we make it easy for the administration to manage, then I am hoping that we can find a win-win situation for all sides involved.

Corbeaux

Having proposals for favours, NPC items, or inductions that require administrative approval just creates additional work for a mostly volunteer staff. I think it is best that Orders remain separate from House/City commands and structure. Unlike those organizations, it is entirely possible, albeit difficult, to have a rich experience with or without an active Divine.

The administration should never be involved with approving individual facets of an Order. Staff can't possibly know all the nuances, relationships, and events going on with members of the Order like an active Divine does, and they do not have a vested interest in it either.

Matias

I do not think anyone other than the God should be able to bring people into an Order. Getting into an Order shouldn't be about tasks which get ticked off, it should be about creating and proving your loyalty to your God. A God should never come back and not know who is in Their Order (I know sometimes the players behind the Gods change, but the point remains the same)

An Order head should be picked by the God. They are Their mortal mouthpiece and should not be picked by democracy.

Perhaps the God would be interested to see who offered how much in Their absence?

Neither favours nor prizes are something that you are entitled to just because you are in an Order. If you want prizes, feel free to put them forward yourself, or do as the Pandorans did and fundraise and all that jazz.

No new items is not a big deal. You shouldn't be in the Order for new items and shiny things. You are free to design Order inspired things on your own, and offer them to your Order mates. Never know, when the God comes back, they might appreciate your designs and make them proper Order Items.


In summary, I do not think that the admin should be going near a God's Order unless there is something SERIOUSLY wrong. If you are following an absent Divine, you have the choice to remain loyal, or follow another God.

Klendathu

Just a big no. Only the God should be doing any of the stuff proposed, it's not up to the players, nor unrelated Achaea admin. Especially the favours thing!

For inducting, there is the option for lay membership, but that depends on whether the God has given the particular privilege to the order member.

Kayeil

No to everything. A God is completely and entirely in control of everything Their Order does, can do, can't do, and receives. I would never tell Lady so-and-so SHOULD be inducted, or so-and-so SHOULD be given a favour. At best I can give recommendations on possible inductees, but She has to look at everything Herself and decide for Herself if they fit and and lived up to Her standards of requirements. Favours are entirely at Her discretion, and no where would any of us ever assume we deserve one or feel entitled to one. Also, as far as voting goes? You don't want to turn Orders into political messes. It's all about your personal relationship with your God and whether you have earned Their trust, and been promoted as high as They think you deserve. A God could appoint multiple Order Heads (mine has). The final decision in an Order should never be left to a mortal or any of the mortals in the Order because it is not about them. It is about the God, Their realms, Their expectations, etc etc. I'd say we're lucky we still have Gods. One of the IRE games completely got rid of theirs. Sadly we lost some much loved Gods with the Bal'met event, but I'd be careful about demanding too much or we could potentially lose ours, too.

Jacen

I think god dormancy is a much bigger problem with respect to city and House patronage than Orders, however I do think Orders should have some provisions in place for dormant gods. Not favors, but induction, minor customized items, and dormant OH replacement. Perhaps,  when the OH officially goes dormant, OH is offered to the next highest rank active member, until someone accepts or a minimum rank is hit.

Antonius

I was inducted to Pentharian's Order by Osis, back when there wasn't anybody actively playing the Pentharian role, though I was stuck at OR1 because I couldn't be promoted (as you'd expect). Can OHs seriously not induct these days?

Ahmet

Antonius said:

I was inducted to Pentharian's Order by Osis, back when there wasn't anybody actively playing the Pentharian role, though I was stuck at OR1 because I couldn't be promoted (as you'd expect). Can OHs seriously not induct these days?

I've heard of a few people getting into orders of dormant gods, so I think there's probably some way, or I suppose certain exceptions could have been made on the admin's side. It might be a decision on the God's end as to whether or not their OH can induct.

Shirszae

I believe it depends on the God whether their OH can or not induct

Tecton

Induction is an investable power, yes. 

As many have correctly iterated in this thread, interfering in a dormant god's order isn't something we'll ever offer, sorry!

Utianima

@Corbeaux @Matias @Klendathu @Kayeil - thanks for your post.

You make good arguments, and I am starting to thinki this wasn't such a good idea after all.

I am just bummed that my character's god isn't active (has been so for several years), and was thinking about ways to spark some activity within the order. Only less than a handful active members left. The outer order head gave up, mainly because of not getting stuff done due to lack of active god and inner order head, and having lowest order ranks status and no clan powers.

I did not know order heads can induct, depending on what the god decides. But that is of little help when the god did not enable that, and/or the order head is dormant.

Even if you're against all my listed suggestions, can you think of any other IDEAS for making the overall order management better for everyone (including dormant orders)?

Jacen said:

I think god dormancy is a much bigger problem with respect to city and House patronage than Orders, however I do think Orders should have some provisions in place for dormant gods. Not favors, but induction, minor customized items, and dormant OH replacement. Perhaps,  when the OH officially goes dormant, OH is offered to the next highest rank active member, until someone accepts or a minimum rank is hit.

Like your suggestion I don't want any of the ideas to undermine the role of active gods, but it we can come up with ideas like your suggestion, I think that's the way to go.

Utianima

Tecton said:

Induction is an investable power, yes. 

As many have correctly iterated in this thread, interfering in a dormant god's order isn't something we'll ever offer, sorry!

Ok, thanks! I guess that settles it.

Would you consider changes to the order system mechanics in general, like Jacen's suggestion?:
"Perhaps,  when the OH officially goes dormant, OH is offered to the next highest rank active member, until someone accepts or a minimum rank is hit."

Krypton

What's the point of having any Order activity if its God—around Whom everything an Order is revolves—isn't active?

If you want to "keep the action alive," you can use pre-Order clans for that.

Utianima

Krypton said:

What's the point of having any Order activity if its God—around Whom everything an Order is revolves—isn't active?

If you want to "keep the action alive," you can use pre-Order clans for that.


The god never said goodbye, and as far as his followers are concerned he is just too busy to interact with his followers. I am also wondering what the point of staying active is, but then there is the RP and the hope that maybe the god returns someday.

As for the clan, that is owned by the inactive OH.

Matias

Utianima said:

Krypton said:

What's the point of having any Order activity if its God—around Whom everything an Order is revolves—isn't active?

If you want to "keep the action alive," you can use pre-Order clans for that.


The god never said goodbye, and as far as his followers are concerned he is just too busy to interact with his followers. I am also wondering what the point of staying active is, but then there is the RP and the hope that maybe the god returns someday.

As for the clan, that is owned by the inactive OH.

Make a new clan and use that until someone or Someone comes back to that do something about it.

Kayeil

I have the ability to induct in my Order, but not without restrictions. I would only ever do so with Lady Pandora's permission, and only because due to Her more limited schedule sometimes it is easier for me to catch someone in a certain time zone than it is for Her. Otherwise, She tries to do as many of the inductions as She is able.