Runewarden (Sword and shield)

Aerek

• In all all of those setups, the rebounding-vulnerable attacks are finished by 6.1 or 7.6, (Rebounding being 8.5) and require zero momentum going in. You could Raze rebounding first and likely still have enough time, or if you wait until an opponent drops his own rebounding, there is 0% chance rebounding will come up before you finish breaking limbs. (And Rebound doesn't stop Vivisect)

• Gravehands stops fleeing/flying. Yes, you could Shield, but you're implying everyone always has balance and never makes a mistake. If you attack me (breaking your rebounding) and I break your torso immediately after, then I'm probably going to get the leg break/prone before you even get balance back.

• Following opponents to finish these setups is no different from following opponents to finish with Pulp, Bite, Brokenstar, or S&B DSB itself, all of which I do all the time, despite "a lot" of classes having counters to it. Piety/Ghands are the only ones that really pose a problem, frozen ground is preventable and other hinders stop functioning when the target leaves. Walls/rubble exist, and Somersault is faster than Tumble, but depending on -when- the target Tumbles/Somersaults, you would still have time to Leap/Mountjump and finish. And let's face it, very few opponents actually manage to tumble within 1 second of the leg break every time, otherwise DSB, itself, would be "non-viable".

• You didn't read my post. You don't fall back on DSB from this setup, these setups are the fallback from DSB. S&B does not Vivisect as first option, we all agree on this; it goes for DSB first, and when an opponent auto-applies torso, they kill with Vivisect instead. It's not really different from DSL Infernal, it's just backwards.

• I fixed the incorrect times, they'd been copy/pasted from the first two that had the Infernal "wait" a moment at 5.7. Thank you for the correction, but had you bothered to adjust the times yourself, you'd see that the error was purely typographical, and the setups are still mechanically sound. You still get to Vivisect before the target gets EQ back:

S&B Vivisect, Opponent Tumbles, Uses Restoration
------------------------------------------------
0.0 torso            0.0 restoration torso   t1
1.9 leg ept/trip                             t1, rl2, la1
                     3.0 Tumble?             t1, rl2, la1
3.8 leg ept                                  t1, rl2, ll2, la1, ra1
                     4.0 mending             rl2, ll2, ra1
                     5.0 mending             rl2, ll2
5.7 Wait                                     rl2, ll2
                     6.0 restoration legs    rl2, ll2
6.1 arm/ept                                  rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
                     7.5 Tumble out?         rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
8.0 Follow/Vivisect                          rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
                     8.5 Can Restore


S&B Vivisect, Opponent Tumbles, No Resto Off Bal
------------------------------------------------
0.0 torso            0.0 restoration torso   t1
1.9 leg ept/trip                             t1, rl2, la1
                     3.0 Tumble?             t1, rl2, la1
3.8 leg ept                                  t1, rl2, ll2, la1, ra1
                     4.0 mend arms           rl2, ll2, ra1
                     5.0 mend arms           rl2, ll2
5.7 Wait                                     rl2, ll2
                     6.0 Does not apply      rl2, ll2
6.1 arm ept          6.1 mend arms           rl2, ll2, la2
                     7.5 Tumble out?         rl2, ll2, la2
8.0 Follow/arm ept                           rl2, ll2, la2, ra2
                     8.5 Can Restore, restoration legs
9.9 Vivisect
                     12.5 leg fixes

S&B Vivisect, Opponent Restores, Uses Restoration
-------------------------------------------------
0.0 torso               0.0 restoration torso   t1
1.9 leg ept/trip                                t1, rl2, la1
3.8 leg ept             3.8 Restore             t1, rl2, ll2
                        4.0 restoration legs    rl2, ll2
5.7 arm/ept                                     rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
7.6 Vivisect
                        8.0 leg fixes
                        9.8 EQ back

S&B Vivisect, Opponent Restores, No Resto Off EQ
------------------------------------------------
0.0 torso               0.0 restoration torso   t1
1.9 leg ept/trip                                t1, rl2, la1
3.8 leg ept             3.8 Restore             t1, rl2, ll2
                        4.0 Does not apply      rl2, ll2
5.7 arm/ept             5.7 mend arms           rl2, ll2, la2
7.6 arm/ept                                     rl2, ll2, la2, ra2
9.5 Vivisect
                        9.8 EQ back

Come on, Coop, you're smarter than this; you're just trying to shoot holes in it on principle. Sure, they're not 100% unstoppable, but no Achaean kill is, that's what makes it interesting. There are plenty of setups LESS mechanically sound than these that we all use successfully every day. Hell, these kills are all more guaranteed than DWB's Pulp, and I've been Pulping left and right for the last 30 days, despite the lazy and un-creative telling me Pulp is impossible or non-viable.

No one's saying S&B is Vivisect champion of the world, but if you're honestly telling me that no one would ever die to this, then you and I need to hit Delos sometime, because I have worse tactics that I bet would still net me some wins.

Cooper

Having to rely on someone to both apply to torso without using any defensive measures and also drop their own rebounding is going to happen in very few fights.

If anyone let's you beat on them long enough to get 5 limbs set up before they kill you, you probably shouldn't be fighting them. That's going to take 3-4 minutes to set up in a normal fight.

1.9s is also level 3 artied speed (it's actually 1.926 assuming no server lag). Normal longsword would put you into a much different time frame.

You're right in that it is theoretically doable, but you could try it 100 times and it might work a handful of times, until people realize you are doing it and cure/defend themselves properly.

Aerek

Cooper said:

Having to rely on someone to both apply to torso without using any defensive measures and also drop their own rebounding is going to happen in very few fights.
I don't understand this. I let people break their own rebounding in almost every fight, as every spec. Again, if I let you attack me, then break torso, break leg/prone, you don't -get- to take any defensive measures. If someone -doesn't- auto-apply to torso, that's great! DSB them instead.

If anyone let's you beat on them long enough to get 5 limbs set up before they kill you, you probably shouldn't be fighting them. That's going to take 3-4 minutes to set up in a normal fight.
I said this. An issue with practicality, not possibility.

1.9s is also level 3 artied speed (it's actually 1.926 assuming no server lag). Normal longsword would put you into a much different time frame.
This is not accurate. Every S&B user can use the break leg/prone, break torso, Impale/Club setup with longsword/buckler, and that, mathematically, requires a 1.9 combo speed. I used it regularly as S&B.

You're right in that it is theoretically doable, but you could try it 100 times and it might work a handful of times, until people realize you are doing it and cure/defend themselves properly.
I think you're grossly overestimating the number of people with good anti-Vivisect knowledge, underestimating the number of people that auto-apply, or both.

By your extraordinarily high standards, Disembowel is not a viable kill, because people can "just" tumble within 1 second of every leg break, and/or auto-apply torso on break. You can reliably avoid Disembowel every single time, if you're perfect and never make a mistake. Yet, somehow, we all still manage to kill people with it every day.

Arador

Are we forgetting all the complaints about tumble and DSB that have littered this forum for years? And how adjustments have been made to counter this? 

Xinna

I feel like we should all just stop at S&B, 5-limb prep and forget about the rest.

You'd have to be masochistic or have bizarre notions of "fun" to ever want to do that to kill people.  

Pally is best S&B class because damnation meshes better with it. Infernal is more suited for DWB, DWC, 2H.

Arador

Yep. Hence my original point. SnB sucks for infernal. 

Exelethril

I never opted for a 5 limb prep as an fyi. I wouldn't wish that even on scientologists.

Okay, maybe I would but.. if shieldstrike low/break leg/epteth -> break other leg/epteth doesn't work because of situational unorthodox prios then I'd just go for damage torso dsb instead.

Not as good as the other specs for vivi-ing but I'd still play it and probably would fight people with the same efficiency as Runewarden. 

Mizik

Runie SNB lite

Cooper

This is straight from the test server, both with a buckler. First is regular longsword, second is a level 3 artefact. 

You slice into the right leg of Nyudas with an elegant, polished longsword.

You quickly lunge to the side, bringing your shield around to smash into the spine of Nyudas.

You batter at your enemy's defences, seeking an opening.

Base balance: 229

2.06s after account for nimble 10%

You slice into the right leg of Nyudas with a Logosian longsword.

You quickly lunge to the side, bringing your shield around to smash into the spine of Nyudas.

You batter at your enemy's defences, seeking an opening.

Base balance: 214

1.926s after account for nimble 10%

Queuing means unless someone has an ungodly ping you could break leg/break torso/impale in time. I got confirmation from Makarios that the test server is correct. 

Rom

There's also a bonus from having Weaponmastery and Weaponry trans'd.

Cooper

That doesn't affect speed, only damage and accuracy.

Atalkez

Cooper said:

Queuing means unless someone has an ungodly ping you could break leg/break torso/impale in time. I got confirmation from Makarios that the test server is correct. 

Level two longsword, I've yet to see someone writhe out of this setup so far.

Cooper

Yeah, anything above a stock longsword will 100% remove the chance of writhing (assuming you use queuing).

Mizik

Breaking leg first not viable.

Aerek

I never lost a leg > torso > Impale setup with forged weapons if I was queuing, and killed multiple people with them because it prevents torso cures if they don't tumble fast enough. Others with forged weapons use them against me; I'll have to start saving logs. Perhaps it's just SSC's built-in delay or actual ping accounting for the difference, but if that's the case it works out the same. S&B doesn't have a 1.9 combo, but opponents won't be curing at zero latency like I plan for in the charts. Same result.

All good, either way. The less Infernals there are out there actually using Vivisect, the less I have to deal with it. To my knowledge, only @Exxia even trying anymore, so kudos to him.

Antonius

I lost a leg > torso > impale setup against Ainly with a level two longsword, using queueing. Ended up being about a tenth of a second too late on the impale. I've just started using shieldstrike high along with the leg break, since the stun delays the restoration application enough that I definitely won't be too slow (I've also since upgraded to a level 3 longsword).

Mizik

I've actually never thought about smash high. That really cuts the tumble time to near zero. 

Plus it counters torso apply.

Thanks! 

Aesgar

Antonius said:

I lost a leg > torso > impale setup against Ainly with a level two longsword, using queueing. Ended up being about a tenth of a second too late on the impale. I've just started using shieldstrike high along with the leg break, since the stun delays the restoration application enough that I definitely won't be too slow (I've also since upgraded to a level 3 longsword).

Don't you need to prone when you break a leg?

Mizik

Shieldstrike is the tertiary balance. You're thinking smash. 

Exelethril

Can guardbreak if desperate for ferocity to do shieldstrike high/slice/trip combo too.

Mizik

Shieldstrike High is like .3 seconds. Not worth using in any universe.

Exelethril

Mizik said:

Shieldstrike High is like .3 seconds. Not worth using in any universe.

That's on a leg break.

Exelethril

Like, it's only really worth using on a leg break for delaying 0.3-0.5 secs of tumbling/restoration applying or extending a smash high pseudo-lock at the end of 2.5 secs by 0.3-0.5 secs. Also, stun messes up queued tumbles/anything, so they'll have to hold down Enter for it to go through.

Or if you're really good at scripting (which I'm not), a timer to shieldstrike high 1.4 secs after someone eats a plant/mineral to extend herb eating balance.

Mizik

Best use I'd get out of it is to actually trigger it about .5s-.8s off a leg break aka within mean reaction times to really minimize the small tumble window.

Cooper

That stuff is cool (stop posting about the extend focus stuff Exel or I'm gonna punch you in the nuts) but I still prefer the free sensitivity/kelp aff portion of it.

Exelethril

extended focus stuff

You'd better deliver, Coop. 

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