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Runewarden (Sword and shield)

AesgarAesgar Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
Just looking for someone knowledgable in Runie SnB that I can bother with all my combat questions. 

Much appreciated!
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Comments

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,839 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shoot.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    AesgarGlor
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,379 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bang   
    Aesgar
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
  • AesgarAesgar Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Xinna said:
    Austere said:
    Bang   
    Aerek said:
    Shoot.
    Thanks!! That should be plenty of people to contact
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,269 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What's up?
    image
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Mizik said:
    What's up?
    Your break point, so.. many.. hits..
    Dochitha
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    Mindshell said:
    Mizik said:
    What's up?
    Your break point, so.. many.. hits..
    Have you tested mine?
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mizik has a high break point? Lol what, he doesn't have a giant amount of hp. Try going on Sarathai in Dform, or Seragorn (even in lesser, dude is a tank, esp with +con mog)

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you're a Sword and Shield Knight, everybody has a "high" break point. Slice limb damage isn't that great, but the long prep times are balanced out by how powerful the spec can be once you've got the prep finished, and not needing more than two limbs for most things.
    AerekDochithaNylianAnedhel
  • AesgarAesgar Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Antonius said:
    If you're a Sword and Shield Knight, everybody has a "high" break point. Slice limb damage isn't that great, but the long prep times are balanced out by how powerful the spec can be once you've got the prep finished, and not needing more than two limbs for most things.
    I can hardly kill with my current spec which is kind of a bummer, but I sort of assumed that going into it. I went all const just to get dragon over with. 
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,536 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    If you're a Sword and Shield Knight, everybody has a "high" break point. Slice limb damage isn't that great, but the long prep times are balanced out by how powerful the spec can be once you've got the prep finished, and not needing more than two limbs for most things.
    Handaxe throws prep in half the time it takes as Slice.




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    SnB has a slow as limb prep, nothing to do with Mizik's hp
  • NylianNylian Member Posts: 125 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Handaxe throws prep in half the time it takes as Slice.

    Wait really?

    .... is that viable?
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,536 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nylian said:
    Atalkez said:
    Handaxe throws prep in half the time it takes as Slice.

    Wait really?

    .... is that viable?
    Sure if you're okay with losing any real affliction momentum and never bypassing parry.




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahem, a bit off topic but would just like to give my two cents -

    Depending on how you play SnB, I think it can be the most interesting/versatile out of all the specs - mainly because of how one can juggle Ferocity for different things, like extending a smash high pseudolock from 2.5 to 5 seconds with shieldstrike high, disemboweling with a single arm break, dedication etc.

    Personally, I think it has a relatively high "mastery" cap to the other Runewarden specs, so it could keep you entertained for awhile. Well, compared to repeating the same venom sequence over and over again with DWC/mana drain blades(venom-lock into focusing venoms). 

    It's not stronger than the other specs though and has its weaknesses, like shield/rebounding is particularly strong at hindering SnB.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    AerekAesgarKiet
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,839 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Does require more intensive scripting to make the most of it, though. Optimal use of Shieldstrikes and Dedication in particular take a well-thought-out and methodical approach to creating aliases/keys/offensive scripts, and even effectively rotating through different venom/shield combinations is more involved than DSL, who can just pre-apply venoms in bulk for reasonable effectiveness.

    I do think S&B is the objective "best" of the Knight specs, and its basic combat techniques are easy to pick up, just comes with a higher skill floor than the others if you want to hit peak efficiency.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    ExelethrilKiet
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just not for infernal. It sucks for infernal. 

  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2016
    It doesn't. 

    Edit : You can vivi/truelock and force your opponents into some pretty bad situations. I don't think the current Infernals have given the SnB spec enough thought.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Truelock isn't a huge threat with proper priorities. You'd need to get impatience ticks at very particular times in the fight for it to happen and that's not the kind of thing you can work around since it's purely RNG.

    Vivisect from sword and shield is by far the least threatening of the four Weaponmastery specialisations.
    ExelethrilAradorAerek
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good points and more off-topicness but it's more about the situations you force your opponents into plus the unrivaled aff pressure.

    Infernals benefit from relevant passive affs via maggots (sensitivity, lethargy, impatience etc iirc), the two other knight classes don't. With dedication and gravehands (rip runners), it's possible to force your opponent entirely unto the defensive by putting them at risk of getting pseudo or truelocked faster than Paladins/Runewardens. Combine the SnB aff rate + maggots + dedication and you have the strongest knight momentum class affliction-wise.

    In terms of scenarios, it's the same scenario that Paladins benefit from but you have their limbs to work with instead of head/torso choice.
    1. Shieldstrike low(prone)/slice(break leg)/epteth -> break other leg with epteth/shield aff -> vivi (need to burn tree prior)
    2. If you know they will restore on scenario 1, you can switch to a damage stack for 3+ (number depends on whether they are venom-locked prior) slices after the restore and try for a sensi-disembowel or switch back to locking affs since they'll be on the ground for awhile.
    3. On a torso/leg/leg prep, you're guaranteed either a disembowel or a vivisect - depending on whether your opponent tumbles.
    If they prio impatience, you still have the pseudo smash high-lock to rely on to delay the eating. Besides, if they're eating goldenseal on every impatience tick, they aren't curing asthma.

    Damage-wise, Deathaura more consistently damages health versus Demons(mana/hp drain), Hugalaz procs are really strong but has pretty bad RNG. SnB has some pretty strong, consistent damage with Shieldstrike Mid every 4 slices.

    Downsides, completely RNG but definitely underrated imo.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh yeah, you can also vivi them by shieldstrike low/pseudo-lock -> trample -> depending on how far you are into the mental aff stacking. You don't lose any momentum with delph/delph, unlike DWC.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah great and all but I've fought for 25 minutes in the Delos arena once and got a single Impatience tick. Thinking any sort of strategy for true locking is even remotely reliable with it is just not realistic. "Eating Goldenseal every Impatience tick" would be meaningful if impatience ticked with any reliable way. 

    SnB just does not have any salve pressure to it for Vivisect to be a realistic option if your opponent has the slightest clue. And even just using it as a threat to get the disembowel, you will be hurting a lot less that the other two Knight classes after a very long prep. 

    Your best bet would be to get a diadem and go with leprosy/arc after breaking legs. 

  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What's the proc rate for maggots and what affs do they give?

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good points and more off-topicness but it's more about the situations you force your opponents into plus the unrivaled aff pressure.

    Infernals benefit from relevant passive affs via maggots (sensitivity, lethargy, impatience etc iirc), the two other knight classes don't. With dedication and gravehands (rip runners), it's possible to force your opponent entirely unto the defensive by putting them at risk of getting pseudo or truelocked faster than Paladins/Runewardens. Combine the SnB aff rate + maggots + dedication and you have the strongest knight momentum class affliction-wise.

    In terms of scenarios, it's the same scenario that Paladins benefit from but you have their limbs to work with instead of head/torso choice.
    1. Shieldstrike low(prone)/slice(break leg)/epteth -> break other leg with epteth/shield aff -> vivi (need to burn tree prior)
    2. If you know they will restore on scenario 1, you can switch to a damage stack for 3+ (number depends on whether they are venom-locked prior) slices after the restore and try for a sensi-disembowel or switch back to locking affs since they'll be on the ground for awhile.
    3. On a torso/leg/leg prep, you're guaranteed either a disembowel or a vivisect - depending on whether your opponent tumbles.
    If they prio impatience, you still have the pseudo smash high-lock to rely on to delay the eating. Besides, if they're eating goldenseal on every impatience tick, they aren't curing asthma.

    Damage-wise, Deathaura more consistently damages health versus Demons(mana/hp drain), Hugalaz procs are really strong but has pretty bad RNG. SnB has some pretty strong, consistent damage with Shieldstrike Mid every 4 slices.

    Downsides, completely RNG but definitely underrated imo.

    1. If they adjust their priorities so that they apply mending over restoration, that won't work. You suddenly need a lot more limbs prepped to get the Vivisect. If I've done my timeline correctly, assuming a latency on curing of ~0.2 seconds and a combination speed of 1.9 seconds, you'd need to prep all four limbs, and they wouldn't need to restore until AFTER you've broken all four of them and done an additional slice. That means that 1. rebounding will almost certainly come up and screw you over and 2. they have plenty of time to tumble out of the room before that point because they don't need to worry about staying on balance for restore any time soon.

    3. Depends if they know when torso has broken or not. If they don't, then it's absolutely no different to scenario 1, they're free to tumble out of the room because you won't be able to get the vivisect any time soon even without them using restore. If they do, they'll apply to cure torso damage, and they're still free to tumble away because they don't need to restore any time soon. Even if they don't (want to) tumble, who gives a damn about a disembowel with no torso damage?

    From a purely theorycrafting point of view, if it was me, and I was fighting a sword and shield Infernal, I'd push impatience above everything herb cured and broken limbs above mangled/mutilated limbs, and I'd also push paralysis way down my priorities while prone with (a) mangled/mutilated leg(s) so that I can cure off asthma (to smoke for rebounding) and sensitivity (to reduce damage taken).

    Ultimately, Infernal's inability to give two mending-cured breaks on a single balance really hinders its ability to make vivisect a meaningful threat. Against people with awful priorities it's definitely strong (though still not as strong as dual cutting or dual blunt, if only due to the prep time required), but the measure of how truly powerful a class is shouldn't be how easily it kills people with awful priorities/who don't know how to defend against what it can do.

    It's entirely possible I've made a mistake, though, so feel free to check:

    
    scenario 1 (without tumble or rebounding)
    0 - mangle leg + break arm (ll2, la1)
    0.2 - apply mending to arms (ll2)
    1.4 - apply restoration to legs (ll2)
    1.9 - mangle leg + break arm (ll2, rl2, la1)
    2.1 - touch tree (if they have it) (ll2, rl2)
    3.8 - mangle arm + break arm/whatever (ll2, rl2, la2, ra1)
    5.4 - restoration end (ll1, rl2, la2, ra1)
    5.6 - apply mending to legs (rl2, la2, ra1)
    5.7 - mangle arm + break leg (ll1, rl2, la2, ra2)
    6.4 - apply mending to legs (rl2, la2, ra2)
    7.6 - apply restoration to legs
    7.6 - break leg (ll1, rl2, la2, ra2)
    7.6 - restore (rl2, la2, ra2)
    9.5 - break leg (ll1, rl2, la2, ra2)
    11.4 - vivisect 
    11.6 - restoration ends
    
    scenario 3
    0 - torso
    0.2 - apply restoration to torso
    1.9 - leg + arm (ll2, la1)
    3.8 - leg + arm (ll2, rl2, la1, ra1)
    4.2 - restoration ends (ll2, rl2, la1, ra1)
    4.4 - mending to arms (ll2, rl2, ra1)
    5.6 - mending to arms (ll2, rl2)
    5.7 - arm + arm (ll2, rl2, la2, ra1)
    6.8 - mending to arms (ll2, rl2, la2)
    ... (honestly, they've had enough time to tumble, so not going to carry on)
    
    AerekExelethrilDochitha
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good points, @Antonius. Thanks :)

    The viability of SnB's vivi strat is based on the standard curing prios of mangled legs/crippled legs > crippled arms. It's definitely avoidable by prio-ing crippled arms/mangled legs like you've mentioned but I'd also like to raise the point that sort of avoidability brought on by proper prio switching applies to any other class too.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,839 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ehhh, you can swap prios around to avoid a particular tactics, but effective tactics are the ones that can -punish- those swaps when you do. You can swap darkshade up high to avoid death vs Serpent, but Serpents can readily punish you for that. DSL and DWB Infernal can readily punish proper Vivisect curing with Disembowel, Pulp, or raw damage. S&B doesn't quite have solid contingencies to counter the curing paths Antonius points out, and I think that's where the difference between "effective" and "novel" lies.

    I agree that S&B -can- Vivisect, (I'd actually say the long-ass 5-limb setup is decently viable--@Antonius isn't mentioning Shrivel/Arc or Leprosy--it's just that 5 limbs as S&B is an eternity of prep) and Infestation certainly does afford it some potential that the other knights don't have, but like Toni, I tend to judge tactics based on whether they'd work on folks who know what they're doing. If only standard, static prios fall for it, it might work, but I don't know that I'd recommend it to others.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    ExelethrilDochitha
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No one is going to get vivisected by a S&B Infernal unless they forgot that Infernals have vivisect. None of the vivisect ideas by Exelethril would work.

    Infestation is definitely very nice and very powerful, but expecting it to get you locks on a frequent basis is not going to work like you want it to. 10 possible afflictions, one every 10 seconds. That means on average you'll get impatience every 100 seconds (a little bit less than that in practice, since Infestation no longer doubles up on afflictions).

    Just to repeat, infestation is great and very useful for other things.

    Deathaura is also useful, but not as useful as you think. It's a % chance to tick every 10 seconds. Sometimes it doesn't tick for 20-30-40 seconds. I'll be classleading that it become stable rather than RNG next time around.

    Exelethril
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Infestation is definitely very nice and very powerful, but expecting it to get you locks on a frequent basis is not going to work like you want it to. 10 possible afflictions, one every 10 seconds. That means on average you'll get impatience every 100 seconds (a little bit less than that in practice, since Infestation no longer doubles up on afflictions).

    Just to repeat, infestation is great and very useful for other things.

    Deathaura is also useful, but not as useful as you think. It's a % chance to tick every 10 seconds. Sometimes it doesn't tick for 20-30-40 seconds. I'll be classleading that it become stable rather than RNG next time around.
    Thanks for the clarification, I thought the Infestation aff pool was a lot smaller and Deathaura's proc was more consistent.

    No one is going to get vivisected by a S&B Infernal unless they forgot that Infernals have vivisect. None of the vivisect ideas by Exelethril would work.

    I think the same train of thought of being un-vivisectable would apply to DWC Infernal too with proper anti-vivi measures, even on a 3-limb prep. Dual blunt / 2H on the other hand, I'm not sure.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,839 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2016
    Cooper said:
    No one is going to get vivisected by a S&B Infernal unless they forgot that Infernals have vivisect.
    I think that's a touch of exaggeration.

    S&B's Vivisect problem is that it isn't -practical-, not that it isn't -possible-. It's just that prepping 5 limbs as S&B takes ages, your opponent will likely get 2 or 3 chances to kill you in that time. (Though Shrivel/Arc or Leprosy remove the need for prepped arms in some instances) Beyond that, you just need the opponent to apply to torso before you can attempt it, which just means that S&B Vivisect is not a primary kill strat, (Which perhaps is why most disregard it) it's the contingency kill for opponents who count torso hits and auto-apply to stop DSB. S&B Vivisect is still completely viable versus those people:

    S&B Vivisect, Opponent Tumbles, Uses Restoration
    ------------------------------------------------
    0.0 torso 0.0 restoration torso t1
    1.9 leg ept/trip t1, rl2, la1
    3.0 Tumble? t1, rl2, la1
    3.8 leg ept t1, rl2, ll2, la1, ra1
    4.0 mending rl2, ll2, ra1
    5.0 mending rl2, ll2
    5.7 Wait rl2, ll2
    6.0 restoration legs rl2, ll2
    6.1 arm/ept rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
    7.5 Tumble out? rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
    8.0 Follow/Vivisect rl2, ll2, la2, ra1
    8.5 Can Restore


    S&B Vivisect, Opponent Tumbles, No Resto Off Bal
    ------------------------------------------------
    0.0 torso 0.0 restoration torso t1
    1.9 leg ept/trip t1, rl2, la1
    3.0 Tumble? t1, rl2, la1
    3.8 leg ept t1, rl2, ll2, la1, ra1
    4.0 mend arms rl2, ll2, ra1
    5.0 mend arms rl2, ll2
    5.7 Wait rl2, ll2
    6.0 Does not apply rl2, ll2
    6.1 arm ept 6.1 mend arms rl2, ll2, la2
    7.5 Tumble out? rl2, ll2, la2
    8.0 Follow/arm ept rl2, ll2, la2, ra2
    8.5 Can Restore, restoration legs
    9.6 Vivisect

    S&B Vivisect, Opponent Restores, Uses Restoration
    -------------------------------------------------
    0.0 torso 0.0 restoration torso t1
    1.9 leg ept/trip t1, rl2, la1
    3.8 leg ept 3.8 Restore t1, rl2, ll2
    4.0 restoration legs rl2, ll2
    5.7 arm/ept rl2, ll2, la2
    6.1 arm/ept rl2, ll2, la2, ra2
    8.0 Vivisect
    9.8 EQ back

    S&B Vivisect, Opponent Restores, No Resto Off EQ
    ------------------------------------------------
    0.0 torso 0.0 restoration torso t1
    1.9 leg ept/trip t1, rl2, la1
    3.8 leg ept 3.8 Restore t1, rl2, ll2
    4.0 Does not apply rl2, ll2
    5.7 arm/ept 5.7 mend arms rl2, ll2, la2
    6.1 arm/ept rl2, ll2, la2, ra2
    8.0 Vivisect
    9.8 EQ back


    I agree with Antonius when he said S&B is the least threatening of the 4 styles in terms of Vivisect (Though, let's face it, 2H will probably kill you with damage before it gets 4 arm and 4 leg fracks stuck) but I obviously, strongly disagree with anyone who says it can't be done, even against a skilled opponent, with reasonable expectations of success. I think the evidence sets that to rest, do correct me if I've made some error in logic or calculation.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    ExelethrilNylian
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The likelihood of rebounding coming up and ruining any of those setups is about 95%. It's also unlikely someone will apply to their torso while standing without shielding, flying, or going into hinder mode.

    The follow to finish the vivisect will be stopped by a lot of classes, too, or at least have a chance to fail.

    Those setups also don't let you fall back on a disembowel kill either. It also requires, at the very minimum, just over 2 minutes on someone with decent health (13 slashes/limb) and no parrying, rebounding, or hinder against you. Most other classes will have 5+ chances to execute their kill combo.

    Ignoring all that, I don't know how to get slice/shield down to a .4s balance time in the last two attempts. The first uses poor vivisect curing, and if we're going to assume we need a 5 limb setup, then we have to assume they are going to have above average priorities. The second has a magical 1.6s combo time and they can cure even during that time anyway.

    None of those are viable :/

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