The Evil Holy Book that Never Was.

Jiraishin

In terms of civilization v. culture, Achaea is different from IRL. Early humanity were children of the gods with sophisticated magic toys like Elara's journal, not hunter-gatherers.

I  get you on the different Orders drawing from different mythologies-- it's something I had considered briefly and should have thought about more. Still not huge on the flavor, but I suppose quite a bit of that could just be personal taste.

The admins pillage a bunch of religious concepts and frankly I think it makes the writing weaker when they do so.

Yep, I'm Jewish.

Lodi

@Jiraishin

"Early humanity were children of the gods with sophisticated magic toys like Elara's journal, not hunter-gatherers."

The question is, did they practice agriculture. If they didn't, then that means they where hunter-gatherers by default because, well, they would have had to hunt and gather to get their food. Also, their social structure is quite distinctly tribal in nature. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one though.

Jiraishin

In the beginning, there was Rurin and an endless stock of mutton chops.

Babel

Since it's been requested, here is my original post on the subject, which can be found in this thread in the old forum archive:

(Post begins.) It's an interesting question, and one that I often have cause to consider myself. After all, there is nothing new under the sun, including that very quote. As both a fantasy game and an exercise in multiplayer shared reality, Achaea necessarily draws upon both the existing tropes of the fantasy genre and the pop culture of the day. We in the Garden try very hard to keep Achaea original and distinguish it from your average swords-and-sorcery book while also acknowledging that we are influenced by our experiences just as much as anybody else. In fact, a little bit of flavour drawn from elsewhere can occasionally (occasionally!) be a good thing; Babel and his particular mythos wouldn't be half as fun if it weren't for the unspoken influence of Lovecraft. However, it would be sadly cheapened if I were to copy/paste Cthulhu or Shub-Niggurath into the backstory. The shade of Lovecraft is relegated to a mere atmospheric influence, a wink and a nod, one of many pigments which contribute to a greater, and entirely distinct, whole.

While I speak only for myself, to me it comes down to a distinction between influence and origin. If your character's actions or writings are influenced by outside sources, that's fine. If, however,  you are actively drawing things from elsewhere, especially from pop culture or other well-known sources,  you may wish to reconsider. The goal is originality, of course, even though it's not easily attained. Generally, your fellow players are your best guide. Most of them are willing to have a quiet word with you if they feel you have crossed that line, and it behooves you to listen. Achaea is vastly improved, I think, when we move beyond simple injection of pop culture (the aforementioned "Tarzan yell" while absconding, for example) and create our own character touches. (Post ends.)

Lianca

@Jiraishin. To nitpick on behalf of the entrepreneur Rurin, he was not the master shopkeeper at the beginning! He has a story just like everyone else in Achaea. Head up to the Gates of the Garden, where he stands, and say something about craft to find out a bit of his history.

Jiraishin

Well, -someone- was selling the mutton chops.

Thaumas

I agree with Jiraishin - it would help immensely if details which are uniquely Achaean are incorporated, and details which are foreign to the, let's face it, simplified game world, omitted. I believe that is how external influences can more easily be turned into a spice, rather than become the essence, as mr. Cthulhu so eloquently put it.

@Lodi, while I won't go into criticising just yet, and certainly not publicly, I highly recommend that you take a look at this book. It contains a chapter on "Prophetic Style", which I think would help you. I'll scan it for you if it's absolutely impractical for you to obtain a copy. Also, have someone else check the spelling. The spell checkers will not correct "Art and Culture of Infinite Cosmic Beauty where created by the Aldar" (also gratuitous capitalisation), for instance, and if you insist on using archaic word choice, use it consistently, correctly, and in consultation with texts originally written in that style. Milton's Paradise Lost, for example.

Boosteya

...And I am so late noticing all this that all I manage to contribute is: Phaestus was not an Elder God. He's not listed as such in the Mythos, or at least wasn't when i was reading it a LOT. Present, yes - but not as an ELDER god.

Azor

It's an impressive piece of work, and Lodi, you gave it to me as HL to do something with. Sorry that I never did do something, but it was complicated enough that editing it and introducing it would've been (still would be) a major task.

Lodi

Thaumas said:

@Lodi Also, have someone else check the spelling.

 
I'm quite badly dyslexic and I always, always try and get people to spell check my work. I hate doing it because it makes me feel like a burden and, occasionally, I cant find anyone willing to spare the time. This was a very, very long draft and so I elected not to waste someones time with it. This is just the forums after all. The IG final draft will be checked by a number of people most probably. I also work very hard myself to ensure there are no errors in the work, which often results in a literal doubling of the time I put into the creation process.

Thanks for the heads up about that book Looks very useful. Unfortunately I cant spare money like that at the moment. I'd be very very grateful if you could scan me a copy,as it would enrich a lot of the work I produce no end. Nice one mate.

What archaic language do I use inconsistently btw?

@Boosteya: Yep, I know he's present but not listed, hence why I actully added Him into that list. There are loads of errors in the Mythos. Although the mane reason for including Him was so I could couple the Gods names together in sentences of seven.

@Azor: Thanks dude, glad you like. I was looking more for advice and criticism of the work (and maybe support to back it once I aimed a proposal at the Divine), not for you to edit it Getting everything I need from this thread though, which is great. Thanks anyway mate.

Boosteya

@Lodi I have LOADS of time and there is NO reason why I can't beta for you. Seriously.

Lodi

@Booesteya That would be awesome! My list of names is growing again. All my old contacts vanished.

Oh, btw, there's a new IIFA exhibition. Its probably not my best work, as I've had to rush it out to coincide with the current events. But its still quite cool. Do you think I should post them on this forum? I know you've always enjoyed my previous work.

Boosteya

Please. how many Mhaldorian alts do you think I have? :P

Remember that 'plenty of time' stuff?

Lodi

I always forget you have some Evil alts. Heh.

Boosteya

I hope I fixed that.

Beya

Great feedback, @Lodi. I think I speak for all of us when I say I look forward to seeing your next draft!

Thaumas

@Lodi: The scan will have to wait at least until Tuesday. About incorrect archaisms, for example, you use "nay" as a synonym to "not", which is not the case. "Nay" is opposite of "Yes", "Aye" (most correctly, the opposite is "Yea").

Incorrect: I did nay find the error (meaning "I did no! find the error".
Correct Modern: I did not find the error.
Correct archaic (Middle English): I found not an error.

Beya

@Thaumas I think he was confusing "nay" with "nae".

"Nae" is a Scottish term for "not" - as popularised by Star Trek - "She cannae do it, cat'in!"

EDIT: In addition, don't write in archaic English if you're not comfortable with it. It'll show and it will look insincere.

Aerek

I think it's fantastic work. I won't re-hash the valid criticisms that have been offered so far, except to emphasize what Beya and I think Silas were getting at:  If you're handing down a theological text, you want to make sure it doesn't state your points too well. RP holy texts should be directional, but not comprehensive. If they get too specific, too bulletproof, then no one will ever need to discuss them, and debates will become circular, as all followers can do is spout off their irrefutable proof that comes from the infallible holy text.

Basically, you want to plant ideas in followers' heads, but let them (Or rather, make them) supply the examples and arguments on their own.

Lodi

@Thaumas: The Oxford English Dictionary says nay to your argument!

@Aerek: Yeah, that's true and actually what I've striven to do with previous publications. But one of the massive draw backs with doing this is that it can cause massive internal division. I mean, look how many times the Catholic church has split into opposing factions over different interpretations of the bible? You need to allow players to make up their own mind, but at the same time, you have to be specific to ensure the work doesn't divide the player-base. I'm glad you like the work though! Thank you

Aerek

Yes, but that's also part of the fun of having a doctrine. Some of your faction members won't believe it like you do, and you have to sort that out from time to time. It shouldn't always be the Blacks against the Whites; both the Blacks and the Whites should occasionally have to debate and battle with the Greys that grow out of their respective factions. That can feel detrimental to your org while it's happening, but it's ultimately good for both your faction and the game because it forces re-evaluations of traditional theology to keep it modern and relevant, and weeds out the folks that really don't fit there, but have slipped in over time.

Sure, sometimes that can get out of hand, as we've seen in Shallam at times, but I'd say that divisions over doctrines such as the Anointed vs the Church, the Lumeni vs Shallam, Erisian Chaos vs Nihilist Chaos, and even Keresis vs Twin Lords and/or Twin Lords vs Sartan have spawned some of the best instances of roleplay this game has ever seen. I wouldn't want to close that avenue by painting the picture too clearly, so to speak.

Lodi

I know what your saying, but I really don't want to create something that seeks to bring division into Mhaldor. I'll definitely be enriching the second draft to ensure there can be more internal debate, but that will be all I'm seeking. Creating something that will result in massive internal division is definitely not what Mhaldor needs at the moment. If anything I'm looking to make something that will re-inspire Mhaldorian culture and bring everyone closer back together. We're clawing ourselves back from a very fractured period of our history, I don't want to hinder this process. 

Thaumas

@Lodi: the link you provided confirms what I said.

Lodi

Thaumas said:

@Lodi: the link you provided confirms what I said.

  Ha! Indeed it does. Whoops I miss read what your originally wrote. I retract my previous statement and offer you my humblest apologies.