I posted a while ago in the rants thread about my dislike for the Apocrypha, which ultimately inspired me to wright a new holy book for Mhaldor. But, with the current epic changes (R.I.P Apollyon!), its now pretty meaningless in parts. Thought I'd share it here. Once this event is over and the dust has settled, I may attempt a rewrite.
@Vasool @Boosteya @Xer @Jiraishin @Antidas @Kaevan @Rakon
You guys seemed a bit interested in it. Some of you just liked my original post in rants, others spoke more directly, so I thought you may like to read the final product.
Enjoy!
Comments
I'd love it if @Tecton gave clearence for it to be implemented. I e-mailed a copy to Apollyon when he return, but he didn't get back to me for obvious reasons. Once this event has finished, I'll be rewriting if people want me to.
내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1
The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
(Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
@Jiraishin: I'd love to hear your feedback. I know you got allot out of The Book of Suffering's Law. This works very different. Its more narrative based, although it draws heavy influence from the writings of Aliester Crowley and Hinduism, just as Suffering's Law did.
1. The references to Oppression and Suffering from when Shaitan was still Dreadlord Shaitan.
I know that they are part of the Aspects of Evil, but Suffering and Oppression really came into play at the Sundering and not before. Those two domains made sense within the framework of how Shaitan and Apollyon were combined and split. It seemed like Suffering and Oppression became -defined- parts of Evil because of the events that took place and the subsequent dominant place of those concepts in the Twin Lords' natures. It makes less sense to me to say that they were there and defined all along.
I actually feel fairly strongly about this, but if I say much more I'm going to end up using quotes and re-arranging this post way too many times for organization and clarity, which is effort I -should- be putting into my homework right now.
2. The descriptions of the Truths' representatives.
Maybe I am just strange like this, but the appearance of things IG and particularly the colors mean a lot to me. I can definitely see the Hindu influence here, which is neither a good nor a bad thing (for me at least), but the colors and the faces and the lotuses are just incredibly jarring. It could be a description of myth, yes, but not any myth I would associate with Achaean Evil. Likewise, the creation story doesn't do much for me despite how well-written it is because it doesn't feel right for the world. I think that is getting into a separate discussion, however.
Perhaps use Greek concepts or names, given the setting of Achaea and some of the words used to frame Apollyon's concepts? It added a lot to my experience knowing that Adikoi meant unjust, Aletheo meant truth, etc.
The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
(Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
edit: Used "some" far too many times.
Perhaps change it to "Logos" instead? Reminds me, someone did Dark philosophy in a Vedic tradition, I cannot remember who wrote it though. A series called the "Brahman Darkwalker."
Thanks for the responses and criticisms
I'm going to have to rewrite about 90% of
it anyway, so they will all be getting taken into account when I do
so. My next attempt is going to be radically different to this one.
In many ways your comments have confirmed a number of fears I already had. Even though I'm happy with its wordsmithing, I think I've tried to be a bit too clever. Ultimately I've ended up obsessing over incorporating a number of neat little ideas at the expense of overall acceptability within Mhaldor (although a number of Mhaldorians do seem to approve of what I've done) and Achaea as a whole.
When I re-right I'm going to be stripping it seriously down to the bones. This will shorten it greatly as well. Its a touch to long at the moment I feel.
I'm going to respond now to a few points. Sorry for the essay.![:D :D](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/lol.png)
@Jiraishin
"It seemed like Suffering and Oppression became -defined- parts of Evil because of the events that took place and the subsequent dominant place of those concepts in the Twin Lords' natures."
I've always hated how Suffering and Oppression where brought into being actually. There was need for a second God to help run Mhaldor (as I'm sure you know), but every time a new Divine was imported in to assist, most Mhaldorians eventually forced them out. For some reason many Mhaldorians cant RP absolute obedience to the Gods (which sucks), I mean, just look at all the fuss around Keresis.
The work load needed to be split, so to get around this the Admin literally split Sartan. The RP reasons crafted to justify this are, well, flimsy at best.
I think you may be getting hung up over the fact that, according to current lore, Suffering and Oppression didn't exist before the sundering. The point of this work was to expanded heavily on current lore and not be shackled to a simple, conservative interpretation of it. A complete re-hall of something that, in all honesty, has become very bland and dusty over the years. That's one of the reasons Mhaldor has been struggling. We're just not exciting ideologically any more.
The concept that Oppression, Suffering and Vengeance reflect the Three Ages of Ayar (Creatore, Maintainer and Destroyer) and in turn, the Three Ages of Creation, is a far more beautiful and well rounded concept than, "Competely out of the blue, Sartan split into Shaitan and Apollyon, with Shaitan announcing 'I was training Him all along!' Bet you guys didn’t see that coming, did ya?" and "This is Keresis. She's Evil now. Deal with it."
Also, the way the Three Ages ultimately work into and expand upon the idea of Judgement Day is an aspect I love the most. The Age of Destruction (whats dealt with in the last chapter) has some waaaay cool stuff in it.
“It could be a description of myth, yes, but not any myth I would associate with Achaean Evil. Likewise, the creation story doesn't do much for me despite how well-written it is because it doesn't feel right for the world. I think that is getting into a separate discussion, however.”
Cultures change over time. Current 'Achaean Evil', as you call it, is a very, very different beast to the 'Achaean Evil' that existed back in Ashtan under Sartan. Because of this, the idea was not to create a work that culturally echoed Mhaldor.
Provenance is meant to be the holy scripture of a lost Evil civilization, written sometime after the Chaos Wars but also a long time before Ashtan and Shallam where founded. Obviously, this culture wouldn't be anything like Mhaldor. Its symbolism would, therefore, be radically different to ours. Much in the same way that the Bible tells a story that is foreign and exotic when compared to the Catholic Church and its European setting.
The imagery that I chose is a purposefully done hint at the aesthetic of the culture from which it sprang, not Mhaldor's. Ultimately, the idea that an ancient Evil civilization would be (visually at least) anything like Mhaldor is just distinctly unbelievable.
In other words, the imagery is sometimes meant to jar and stand at odds with contemporary Evil. Its supposed to feel a touch alien and exotic, to challenge overriding social norms and instigate fresh richness within Mhaldors 'old hat' theology. To bring some new life and ideas into things, basically.
In my next attempt I will now be working a heavier dose of Mhaldor friendly aesthetics into the piece. What style of work would you like to see me create? Should I abandon the narrative style in favor of something more akin to 'Suffering's Law'? I'd very much like to hear your thoughts.![:) :)](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/smile.png)
@Vayne
“I can see some conflict and overlap with Kabbalistic ideas.”
Yep, purposefully done to create tension between Darkness and Evil.
@Beya
“Please be very careful with terminology that implies other ideas.
For example, the praising of Shaitan in brackets after the name could be seen as very offensive.”
Not quiet sure what you mean by this...
“In addition, Sat-Chit-Ananda should be renamed...”
I totally agree.![:D :D](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/lol.png)
“I would also agree with @Silas, where you have Evil as being the core of Ayar.”
One of the key things to remember is that Provenance is the Holy Book of a distinct civilization, therefore it is also a work of political propaganda. How much of it is true and not just a myth said civilization has formed around itself, is open for debate. Much like with the Bible, for example. I wrote the work with that in mind.
This means that even though the theories presented do depict Evil as the foundation of, well, pretty much everything (something Mhaldor already sorta believes), their validity and academic accuracy can still be challenged by non adherents of Evil. Their just beliefs at the end of the day.
The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
(Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
@Lodi
I don't think that including Evil in the nature of Ayar works that well. I agree, after thought, that incorporating Suffering and Oppression from the beginning of Evil would be beneficial, but the claims seem overly grand and the use of the concepts in reference to Dreadlord Shaitan are jarring.
This being the book of a lost Evil civilization makes less sense than it being a lost book of Evil from our current Achaean civilization, which basically began with the world. The Greek theme and Achaea's religious concepts begin with its creation story. The book would be more useful and easier to relate to if its references matched up with the rest of Achaea, even if it is not necessarily Mhaldorian. I think the work is less likely to seem exotic than alien as it is.
Damnit, 2 minutes left. Argh.
I think @Beya was referring to 'hallowed be his name', having looked through the work for references to Shaitan followed by bracketed or parenthetical phrases. I only vaguely know the reference to be religious, but I do agree with him in general. As I said previously on the ranting thread, I cannot type out two of the names you wrote into the intro ritual in your book on ritualism. I can only say them when praying or teaching a child how to pray. Really I shouldn't even be reading them in my head without altering a syllable so they aren't holy names anymore. That's just a minor note, but it -is- something to be careful of.
I would love to see something like Suffering's Law. That was one of the big losses of the Temple Library
Now I'm late. Oh well.
The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
(Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
I do not think it would imbalance of the argument unfairly, or at least anymore of one than the Nihilists' "inevitable oblivion" or the Darkwalkers "Ain Sof." It would really even the playing frield. As long as it is an argument and not taken universally as truth(even canonizing it would be within reason). People take all sorts of things as facts that are not necessarily true because they fit into their paradigm, so I don't think an Evil dominated cosmology would tip the scales, it would balance it, unless the other factions can't keep up and whose fault is that?
The fact is Mhaldorians are religious zealots (so the actual truth/validity of our religious ideals and history does not matter too much) , and it's hard to objectively prove the truth of what Strength is when everyone comes back to life. I don't think Strength is the ability to take someone out of commission for five minutes.
Otherwise I'd just be walkin' around like "Hey, does this smell like chloroform to you?"
To repeat @Beya and @Babel, "You want to distance your terminology as far from the source concepts as possible. [It's] okay to take ideas from other media, so long as you chop it up fine enough for it to be a flavouring spice as opposed to the main dish." This should be because, although influenced by a variety of mythologies, Achaea is still it's own unique environment and the best additions understand and apply the human motivations behind these mythologies without directly re-creating them.
And on the concept of an origin story - there are other Orders that have different origin stories. (The Nerai, for example.) They don't have to be held on the level of the Mythos by Sapience, but they still add an incredibly interesting flavour to an ideology, especially when they're more of a re-interpretation of the Mythos in favour of a particular point of view.
Just my two cents!
ETA: In reply to @Beya below - actually, I just quoted you from above! It doesn't really matter who said it, the point still stands.
"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
(Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
@Jiraishin: I take your point about Ayar and will be removing that in the second draft.![:) :)](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/smile.png)
“This being the book of a lost Evil civilization makes less sense than it being a lost book of Evil from our current Achaean civilization, which basically began with the world.”
‘Civilisation’ didn’t start with the world, it started with the founding of Ashtan and Shallam, imo, as they are literally the first recorded Civilizations. The early humans certainly didn’t have a civilization. A culture, yes, but a hunter gatherer tribal culture, not a ‘civilisation’ – something more akin to Europe in the Palaeolithic.
Civilisation is a very specific social structure that needs certain conditions in which to exist (agriculture, for example). Saying that civilisation started with the dawn of this planet, is like assuming humans have always been civilized. We haven’t.
Also, the ancient civilisation I proposed doesn’t actually spring from Sapience, it springs from the Inferno. Hence the Hindu aesthetic. Indrani takes her name from a Hindu deity and uses Hindu imagery. I’ve taken this as a nod towards a certain aesthetic within the Inferno, which I have carried over into this civilisation.
“The Greek theme and Achaea's religious concepts begin with its creation story.”
As other people have mentioned, many other Orders have their own creation stories that draw influence from outside the Greek paradigm. Hence why it doesn’t matter that what I’ve created fails to fit in with that particular RW mythological aesthetic.
In regards to the other points you and @Beya make, well, to be honest I hadn’t thought of it that way. I’m a Druid and have to deal with my tradition being humiliated and looted for its mythology regularly, so I’m kinda used to it. However, I do take your point and I really meant no offense.
You should really raise this with the admins as well if you’re going to do so with me. They pillage bloody everything. Again, look at Indrani. Her name is taken from a Hindu deity, that could cause some serious offense.
Also, what about the Apocrypha? Or the fact that the Priests of Mhaldor have often based themselves on a Catholic model? We had a ‘Black Church’ with a ‘Black Pope’ once. Lodi’s title (something actually earned within said Black Church) has been ‘Cardinal’ for centuries. The Blood Congregation has ‘Apostles’, ‘Messiahs’, ‘Deacons’ etc.
Mhaldorian's have been saying things like ‘Hallowed be His name!’ from pretty much day one. Its in our prayer books, sermons, rituals... If we start fully going down this path, Mhaldor will have to throw out 90% of its lore and symbolism. We would have to burn down the Cathedral, for example.
I do accept your points as valid and will be taking them into consideration in the future, but taking them to their ultimate conclusion would literally kill Mhaldor off.
“Writing something their religion forbids them from reading.”
That’s me being ignorant there, sorry. I’ll have to change them. I wrote that book around five or six years ago. Their part of Crowley’s Pentagram Rituals, didn’t realise some people weren’t permitted to read them. Your Jewish then I’m guessing?
@Silas: Ah! Cool.![:D :D](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/lol.png)
@Beya:
“Currently, the work you have looks like an interpretation of a text (not necessarily a good or bad thing), but if you want lots of philosophical discussion to sprout from it, you should make it very open to interpretation.”
Very good point and it will defiantly be taken on board for the second draft.![:) :)](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/smile.png)
@Jhaeli:
“Achaea is still it's own unique environment and the best additions understand and apply the human motivations behind these mythologies without directly re-creating them.”
I’ve generally done quite a good job of that, other than with the ‘Sat-Chit’ part (I’ll be changing that on the second draft). There’s loads more RW influences in there than people have picked up on, which is a testament to this.![:) :)](https://forums.achaea.com/resources/emoji/smile.png)