Classleads 2016 balloon/shackle combination

Atalkez

Is there a cap on how many can be inflated at a time?

I think that would be a decent work around, as that allows counter play and also some skill required on the Jester part like Jarrod said. Assuming they can only have one at a time, even if it can be inflated balancelessly, popping on a strict timer (with a third person message) would probably alleviate all of the issue there.

Jovolo

It's a short balance loss to inflate, but you can have multiple balloons at one time. The third person message for popping exists already. It's literally "Atalkez's balloon pops!" iirc.

Kafziel

ITT: basically nobody knows how balloons work

Jovolo

Hey  

Mizik

"With a loud 'POP!' your balloons explode under the weight of your fall!"

On prone.

Fixed, no?

Then there's momentum Piety/Pinshot based classes that don't have Dervish vs Inflate... huh. Balloons are kind of dumb, no?

What are they SUPPOSED to be legitimately used for? Are they a substitute for 'fly' or 'spur chariot skyward'?

I played Jester pretty heavily, fought CONTINUOUSLY, and never found a need for them. I was pretty much never in danger anyway, with Hangedman, Fool, Priestess, Magician, then Peels + Tower + Walk/Somersault, then the unbeatable Universe.

Exelethril

Mizik said:

"With a loud 'POP!' your balloons explode under the weight of your fall!"

On prone.

Fixed, no?

Then there's momentum Piety/Pinshot based classes that don't have Dervish vs Inflate... huh. Balloons are kind of dumb, no?

What are they SUPPOSED to be legitimately used for? Are they a substitute for 'fly' or 'spur chariot skyward'?

I played Jester pretty heavily, fought CONTINUOUSLY, and never found a need for them. I was pretty much never in danger anyway, with Hangedman, Fool, Priestess, Magician, then Peels + Walk/Somersault, then the unbeatable Universe.

Forgot rubble. RUBBLE  

Krypton

Classlead said:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution #1:

Inflating a balloon while being massed automatically pops the balloon.

Solution #2:

have the mass effect of the Shackle last for a couple of seconds after being

removed... (best combined with solution 1)

Solution #3:

do not let the jester move while flying from a balloon.. much like the High Leap

ability

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Decision:

Some variation on solution 1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could just make the balloon RNG pop independent of elevation (i.e., all balloons short-lived). Making having a pre-inflated balloon already on hand for an unshackle escape much harder to achieve.

Kaie

@Mizik Many skills are better for sure. I only really found them to be that nice when floating into an enemy city, to get past guards since archers couldn't really shoot you down and keep you there. However, past nerf destroyed that. So it currently isn't even a useful skill. It's just a fussy temporary fly now. Miss being able to float in on balloons and leave informative graffiti.

@Krypton that's how the used to work.. and still do to a degree. The timing seems a bit random on when they pop. I feel like it is, but maybe not. Either way though, it pops regardless of elevation.

Trevize

Krypton said:

Classlead said:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution #1:

Inflating a balloon while being massed automatically pops the balloon.

Solution #2:

have the mass effect of the Shackle last for a couple of seconds after being

removed... (best combined with solution 1)

Solution #3:

do not let the jester move while flying from a balloon.. much like the High Leap

ability

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Decision:

Some variation on solution 1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could just make the balloon RNG pop independent of elevation (i.e., all balloons short-lived). Making having a pre-inflated balloon already on hand for an unshackle escape much harder to achieve.

I would like to see: The balloon, failing to lift your heavy mass, heads off to the skies without you.

third person: <name> quickly inflates a balloon in an attempt to extricate him/herself from the situation, but watches helplessly as the balloon slips from his/her hands and rapidly disappears into the firmament.

Xinna

I don't see a problem with simply not being able to hold onto an inflated balloon with mass.

Inflate used to have a hefty bal cost comparable to atavian fly. 4 seconds base maybe. Some comments here seem to assume otherwise.

It -is- a super good momentum stopper either way. Maybe enough reason to nerf it.

Doesn't change that shackle/adduction is still OP vs. prep classes. Needing to fight in a one-exit room for block seems a poor counter, to me.

Cooper

Still waiting to hear from @Aegoth with examples of how not being able to remove/wear shackle while prone/hindered is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone.

Antonius - not sure I understand the benefit of that, but if you like to keep track of mass you can do it on a timer.

Atalkez - Boomerang out after shackle removal is something I would consider abuse or an unintended benefit.

Xinna - The adduction shackle abuse is obviously something that needs to go away too, and is most likely the sole reason Aegoth doesn't want shackle nerfed.

Jovolo

Aegoth is filling in the space Shecks left on the forums nicely.

Aegoth

Xinna already answered.

Jovolo, you do a fantastic job of that already. I could hardly usurp your throne

Jovolo

Lmao you're fantastic

Atalkez

@Cooper agree completely.

Exelethril

Cooper said:

Atalkez - Boomerang out after shackle removal is something I would consider abuse or an unintended benefit.

I was tempted to buy my own boomerang to counter this but I realized that someone can trigger re-wearing while paralyzed/prone etc after being boomeranged to safety, which makes it an unintended/abusable LoS summon. It's really simple to set up with triggers too.

Cooper

Aegoth said:

Xinna already answered.

Jovolo, you do a fantastic job of that already. I could hardly usurp your throne

Xinna didn't respond with anything that wasn't broken abuse, and certainly did not respond with anything that would be a 'pretty huge change to pretty much everyone'.

Still waiting for even one legitimate example to back up your multiple posts.

Aepas

The fix is obviously to just make shackles cost more for how good they are.

Aegoth

Cooper said:

Aegoth said:

Xinna already answered.

Jovolo, you do a fantastic job of that already. I could hardly usurp your throne

Xinna didn't respond with anything that wasn't broken abuse, and certainly did not respond with anything that would be a 'pretty huge change to pretty much everyone'.

Still waiting for even one legitimate example to back up your multiple posts.

"Broken abuse" is pretty subjective, especially when you think boomeranging out of a messy situation is "abuse", when it's actually not (and, in fact, is very much intended to be used that way). You might think not, but that's merely an opinion. Therefore, nothing Xinna has said falls under the "broken abuse" category. If we go by your way of labelling, then pretty much everything in the game is "abusive".

Adduction isn't -that- abusive, and can often do more harm than good to the Magi (I don't even use the tactic!). All I'm saying is that you're looking at the symptom, not the disease itself. Kill balloon, the disease.

Alrena

Aegoth said:

Cooper said:

Aegoth said:

Xinna already answered.

Jovolo, you do a fantastic job of that already. I could hardly usurp your throne

Xinna didn't respond with anything that wasn't broken abuse, and certainly did not respond with anything that would be a 'pretty huge change to pretty much everyone'.

Still waiting for even one legitimate example to back up your multiple posts.

"Broken abuse" is pretty subjective, especially when you think boomeranging out of a messy situation is "abuse", when it's actually not (and, in fact, is very much intended to be used that way). You might think not, but that's merely an opinion. Therefore, nothing Xinna has said falls under the "broken abuse" category. If we go by your way of labelling, then pretty much everything in the game is "abusive".

Adduction isn't -that- abusive, and can often do more harm than good to the Magi (I don't even use the tactic!). All I'm saying is that you're looking at the symptom, not the disease itself. Kill balloon, the disease.

Not sure how balloon is the disease here, when it won't do anything as long as mass is up. Only the shackle can make someone put mass on and off on demand, with no way to stop it. Balloon is the surest way to abuse it, certainly, but boomerang or adduction can be used to similar effect, with the only difference being the boomerang requires a partner, and adduction is less certain. In all those cases, being unable to wear/remove shackle while prone/paralyzed/bound would stop the too easy escapes, without diminishing the value of shackle, since you can still take it off and on as you please while standing up to dash/walkto. 

Jovolo

Aegoth said:

Cooper said:

Aegoth said:

Xinna already answered.

Jovolo, you do a fantastic job of that already. I could hardly usurp your throne

Xinna didn't respond with anything that wasn't broken abuse, and certainly did not respond with anything that would be a 'pretty huge change to pretty much everyone'.

Still waiting for even one legitimate example to back up your multiple posts.

"Broken abuse" is pretty subjective, especially when you think boomeranging out of a messy situation is "abuse", when it's actually not (and, in fact, is very much intended to be used that way). You might think not, but that's merely an opinion. Therefore, nothing Xinna has said falls under the "broken abuse" category. If we go by your way of labelling, then pretty much everything in the game is "abusive".

Adduction isn't -that- abusive, and can often do more harm than good to the Magi (I don't even use the tactic!). All I'm saying is that you're looking at the symptom, not the disease itself. Kill balloon, the disease.

How is balloon the disease? It's already been clarified several times throughout this thread that balloon alone isn't a problem because of its interaction with how mass typically works. If you don't have mass up, when you inflate a balloon it's very easily visible and will carry them into the air almost immediately. In that sense it's basically FLY. If you have mass, you'd have to time it so incredibly precisely that your opponent breaks you seconds before mass wears off... that's not going to happen. Balloon only becomes abusable when you use a shackle in conjunction with it.

So, balloon on its own is fine. Shackle's interaction with balloon is not fine. Yet, Shackle's interaction with several mechanics in the game is questionable (Adduction, Balloon, near unpunishable invulnerability if your ally has boomerang...).

It's like Thoth's Fang and Torc. Occultist/Magi were mostly fine without them, and the artefacts themselves were okay in their intended usage. It's when you abuse the artefact in a way that is potentially unintended/outdated that problems occur. That's a problem with the artefact, not class abilities...

Sobriquet

I used to really like the fact we (and other classes in general) had to balance a defense in order to use class abilities. Do we mass up and lose using balloons? Do we have selfishness to avoid being forced to drop a puppet but give up using bombs? 

I've personally found that even using balloons most people learn to counter it pretty fast with tentacle tattoo or such like, although I don't have a shackle and admittedly haven't fought much in anger recently either. 

Antonius

Tentacle tattoo will bring them back down, but if you've just wasted your limb prep on a kill sequence that they counter by just entering "remove shackle" that doesn't really help you.

Exelethril

Triggered pt boomerang is basically the same thing as old earrings, only with an LoS restriction.

<x1> : "Take off shackle now!" + 0.5 sec timer delay for lag compensation
<x2 triggered remove>
<x1 throws boomerang>

Antonius

Exelethril said:

Triggered pt boomerang is basically the same thing as old earrings, only with an LoS restriction...

and prevented by piety/gravehands/tentacles, likely whatever the Eleusis equivalent is (wildgrowth?), and possibly a lot of other things I haven't had a chance to test yet (walls and blocking being the likely ones). Not quite the same as old earrings.

Exelethril

The only thing that stops it from that list are walls. Unless you plan on walling all plausible exits, it's still quite similar.

Tesha

You can also be boomeranged while prone and hindered. I am pretty sure it goes through piety. 

Exelethril

Yeah, nothing stops boomerang except mass/walls.

Edit : If removing/re-wearing restrictions for shackle were put into place, that should balance that artefact imo instead of making the new meta shackles + boomerang.

Morthif

Not blocking?

Antonius

Exelethril said:

Yeah, nothing stops boomerang except mass + walls.

Somebody should tell whoever is responsible for updating HELP files then:

the same things that prevent a yank will prevent a boomerang from
     succeeding (impaled, massed, stand firm, rooted, clinging) plus
     grounding vibes, being at a dock, restrained by tentacles or grave
     hands, or a rite of piety.