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Classleads 2016 balloon/shackle combination
I just wanted to open a thread to get some input and shed some light on shackle of garash artifact. Balloons keeps taking a pounding over it, but it's not really balloons that's the problem in the equation. It's 100% a shackle issue. As nothing stops shackle from being worn or removed at. Balloons in nature worked as intended and always have, even before the last nerf. It was a superior to fly skill that allowed for some interesting manuevers allowing jesters to fly into cities over guards and the works, which isn't that different than phase/astral/etc except you still get hit by archers. It also meant it was hard as hell to get one down. The real issue wasn't really that since if they are up, they aren't doing anything to you either. Especially for limb prep classes, you break legs and prone.. can't inflate. Get locked, can't inflate. However, the shackle is pretty much unstoppable which lead to shackle/inflate/fashion/unshackle. I admittedly did it a bunch myself, and why not? It was available.. but it's abused so hard a skill is getting reduced to water over it. So, sorry.. shackle holders. Give it up.
It'd just be better to nerf shackle instead by making it so you can't wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyzed, broken limbs, off balance/eq, the works. There isn't really a legitimate instance where that's not an acceptable that I can think of.
Ideally i'd like to see balloons reverted and shackle nerfed. The whole setup was ridiculous and is pretty much responsible for balloons creating near invicibility.
Feedback?
It'd just be better to nerf shackle instead by making it so you can't wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyzed, broken limbs, off balance/eq, the works. There isn't really a legitimate instance where that's not an acceptable that I can think of.
Ideally i'd like to see balloons reverted and shackle nerfed. The whole setup was ridiculous and is pretty much responsible for balloons creating near invicibility.
Feedback?
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Comments
His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
What mass doesn't prevent is destabilise adduction, which acts equivalently to angel/demon beckon and does not respect mass.
Admittedly I never tested it. I just remember Maya saying it at the time.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
The only thing I can think of is remove shackle/get yanked/boomeranged, in group, which to me is fair. But that's also not completely destroyed by prohibiting remove shackle while prone.
Balloon/shackle and adduction/shackle are both broken.
Other uses of shackle don't generally involve being prone.
The problem isn't balloon. The problem isn't Shackle. The problem is being able to handsoff while prone. Not sure tho.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
It seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding of how this even works. The issue was keeping an inflated balloon, and then being able to remove shackle and go from nearly finished to flying safely. Not to mention you can do it off balance, which means you can initiate tumble before removing it and then you're both flying and relocated while broken+prone. Nearly nothing at all stops this. This is something you cannot do (reliably) with mass salve, and cannot do without a shackle. Thereby stands to reason the issue is entirely with how shackle operates in conjunction with certain skills namely balloons.
@Cooper has mentioned, there's really not even a legitimate case where nerfing shackle instead would drastically impact the way any class is intended to function and he's spot on about it. I can't think of anything that's not borderline artifact abuse that would be negatively impacted.
My suggestion would simply be revert balloons back to how they were (not popping due to elevation change), nerf shackle, and forget this whole thing ever happened. This way, there's no issues with preinflation and escaping death, and we're not looking at taking skill that's already been nerfed into obsoletion (chariot is better now), and applying yet another bandaid fix. The last nerf to it killed how balloons were even designed to function, and was intended to fix the issue with shackle... as we can see, the issue is still there and it's because the problem wasn't really balloons to begin with.
That's how I've seen it work, unless I've misunderstood something.
Also the being able to complete somersault while flying is ridiculous.
Edit: I'm not opposed to nerfing Shackle in the slightest. It's just worth noting the issues with Balloons as well.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
I'm transfixed, off balance/eq, prone and at 50% health - remove shackle, ally boomerangs you out of safety unless someone is blocking.
Not exactly balanced, but that's not the point of discussion here. Although, it's not that much different than say Deliver or Puppet Summon. Everything has their own counterplay.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Mine worked and randomly stopped working, and I bugged them to get them fixed. And they were fixed, so it should stop adduction.
That's the issue, not the shackle. Jester shouldn't be able to fly/tumble+fly with a balloon while prone/off-balance, handsoff or not I don't know which skill you use to accomplish that, which is the one needing the fix.
The only reason a Jester can even have a balloon inflated while prone is because shackle keeps them from being lifted. Without shackle balloon has zero impact on that situation.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Being proned pops the balloon? I was under the impression that once you inflated it, it was ready for use whenever you needed it. Assuming they have an inflated balloon, no shackle, and no mass - when does the balloon work and when will it pop (other than by random RNG or being tentacled)?
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Since shackle is hard to change, and removing or wearing stuffs can happen without balance or prone, could instead make status of flying<->ground change only if got balance and not prone. So they could still remove shackle while off balance and prone, but it wont fly them, until they are on balance and standing, they fly.
If you never use mass to begin with, and you get proned with an inflated balloon, that's really the same thing as removing Shackle.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Definitely an issue with Shackle, not balloon.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Two solutions come to mind for me.
#1 - You make inflate balloon essentially "FLY". It's permanent, until you want to land in which case you "POP BALLOON". Mass has no effect on it. This means Balloon handoff also forces others to fly unstoppably, which could be a problem.
#2 - Exactly the same solution as the above, but as Jesters have mastered the art of flying ala Balloon while Massed, they are the only ones that can do it! Balloon handoff still requires the target to not have Mass up for it to work.
The ability to fly while prone is just generally not okay. Is there a problem just removing it from their kit? Seems like that solves the problem.
You can still try to inflate before they go for the kill, but that actually requires some amount of skill, and if you see them inflate you can just not go for the finish until a short time passes.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
for those we have never seen it: butterfly bomb knocks people in the sky to the ground periodically on a quick timer while having an inflated balloon instantly makes you fly again. So you'd fashion whenever the balloon knocked you down and then immediately fly before your target could do anything. Hue