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Classleads 2016 balloon/shackle combination

KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
I just wanted to open a thread to get some input and shed some light on shackle of garash artifact. Balloons keeps taking a pounding over it, but it's not really balloons that's the problem in the equation. It's 100% a shackle issue. As nothing stops shackle from being worn or removed at. Balloons in nature worked as intended and always have, even before the last nerf. It was a superior to fly skill that allowed for some interesting manuevers allowing jesters to fly into cities over guards and the works, which isn't that different than phase/astral/etc except you still get hit by archers.  It also meant it was hard as hell to get one down. The real issue wasn't really that since if they are up, they aren't doing anything to you either. Especially for limb prep classes, you break legs and prone.. can't inflate. Get locked, can't inflate. However, the shackle is pretty much unstoppable which lead to shackle/inflate/fashion/unshackle. I admittedly did it a bunch myself, and why not? It was available.. but it's abused so hard a skill is getting reduced to water over it. So, sorry.. shackle holders. Give it up.

It'd just be better to nerf shackle instead by making it so you can't wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyzed, broken limbs, off balance/eq, the works.  There isn't really a legitimate instance where that's not an acceptable that I can think of.

Ideally i'd like to see balloons reverted and shackle nerfed. The whole setup was ridiculous and is pretty much responsible for balloons creating near invicibility.

Feedback?
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Comments

  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    MorthifDochitha
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2016
    Aegoth is worried about losing his adduction shackle bullshit.
  • KandraKandra Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Shackle doesn't work on adduction.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    And I'm the only one who doesn't care lol. 



  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    That's pretty terrible logic. Shackle + balloon is the most ridiculous defensive moves in the game, and is OP. Balloon by itself is not. It's solely the ability to have and remove mass at will that makes balloon a problem.

    His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
    That's pretty wrong. Not being able to remove shackle while prone, etc is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone. It's Jester that's the problem, not everyone else. You're proposing a change that would kill shackle for a lot of people who have no way of abusing it in the same way Jester does. So no, it's balloon that's the problem. Sorry
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kandra said:
    Shackle doesn't work on adduction.
    Shackle gives mass, mass prevents adduction from dragging someone into the room.

    What mass doesn't prevent is destabilise adduction, which acts equivalently to angel/demon beckon and does not respect mass.
    ExelethrilDochitha
  • KandraKandra Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2016
    Mass does prevent adduction, but adduction was made an exception to mass-by-shackle shortly after the shackle was introduced. If that's changed, I apologise.

    Admittedly I never tested it. I just remember Maya saying it at the time.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,528 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    That's pretty terrible logic. Shackle + balloon is the most ridiculous defensive moves in the game, and is OP. Balloon by itself is not. It's solely the ability to have and remove mass at will that makes balloon a problem.

    His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
    That's pretty wrong. Not being able to remove shackle while prone, etc is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone. It's Jester that's the problem, not everyone else. You're proposing a change that would kill shackle for a lot of people who have no way of abusing it in the same way Jester does. So no, it's balloon that's the problem. Sorry
    Can you provide specific (non abuse) examples where shackle while prone is necessary that outlines how it is a "pretty huge change for pretty much everyone"?

  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    That's pretty terrible logic. Shackle + balloon is the most ridiculous defensive moves in the game, and is OP. Balloon by itself is not. It's solely the ability to have and remove mass at will that makes balloon a problem.

    His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
    That's pretty wrong. Not being able to remove shackle while prone, etc is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone. It's Jester that's the problem, not everyone else. You're proposing a change that would kill shackle for a lot of people who have no way of abusing it in the same way Jester does. So no, it's balloon that's the problem. Sorry
    Can you provide specific (non abuse) examples where shackle while prone is necessary that outlines how it is a "pretty huge change for pretty much everyone"?
    It's not I only ever remove mine if I'm like automaprunningawayfrom everyone.



  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not sure if I agree with being prone+broken, then suddenly flying. With the way a ton of limb classes work, if you throw off the timing well enough you kill their entire sequence. Having to tentacle someone after you've already broken/prone'd them really kills the timing of a lot of prep situations,


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    ExelethrilElowin
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    That's pretty terrible logic. Shackle + balloon is the most ridiculous defensive moves in the game, and is OP. Balloon by itself is not. It's solely the ability to have and remove mass at will that makes balloon a problem.

    His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
    That's pretty wrong. Not being able to remove shackle while prone, etc is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone. It's Jester that's the problem, not everyone else. You're proposing a change that would kill shackle for a lot of people who have no way of abusing it in the same way Jester does. So no, it's balloon that's the problem. Sorry
    Can you provide specific (non abuse) examples where shackle while prone is necessary that outlines how it is a "pretty huge change for pretty much everyone"?


    The only thing I can think of is remove shackle/get yanked/boomeranged, in group, which to me is fair. But that's also not completely destroyed by prohibiting remove shackle while prone.

    Balloon/shackle and adduction/shackle are both broken.

    Other uses of shackle don't generally involve being prone.

    ExelethrilAnedhel
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,415 @ - Epic Achaean
    You can't inflate while prone, but you can keep a few inflated balloons in your inventory, and handsoff when you are prone.

    The problem isn't balloon. The problem isn't Shackle. The problem is being able to handsoff while prone. Not sure tho.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not hard to have an inflated balloon that is going to bring you from broken/prone to broken/flying. That's not an issue with shackle.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    AegothDochitha
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2016
    @Dochitha You can't handoff while prone and can't handoff to yourself. You can't inflate one period while prone. I'm not sure what you've been experiencing, but it's likely just someone using mass/shackle with a preinflated balloon. You can't even give an already inflated balloon to another or you just get this "The string on the balloon gets tangled in your hands as you try to get rid of it."

    It seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding of how this even works. The issue was keeping an inflated balloon, and then being able to remove shackle and go from nearly finished to flying safely. Not to mention you can do it off balance, which means you can initiate tumble before removing it and then you're both flying and relocated while broken+prone. Nearly nothing at all stops this. This is something you cannot do (reliably) with mass salve, and cannot do without a shackle. Thereby stands to reason the issue is entirely with how shackle operates in conjunction with certain skills namely balloons.

    @Cooper has mentioned, there's really not even a legitimate case where nerfing shackle instead would drastically impact the way any class is intended to function and he's spot on about it. I can't think of anything that's not borderline artifact abuse that would be negatively impacted.

    My suggestion would simply be revert balloons back to how they were (not popping due to elevation change), nerf shackle, and forget this whole thing ever happened. This way, there's no issues with preinflation and escaping death, and we're not looking at taking skill that's already been nerfed into obsoletion (chariot is better now), and applying yet another bandaid fix. The last nerf to it killed how balloons were even designed to function, and was intended to fix the issue with shackle... as we can see, the issue is still there and it's because the problem wasn't really balloons to begin with.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    If you can have an inflated balloon, with no mass up (shackle or not) and go from broken/prone to flying, that is not an issue with Shackle alone.

    That's how I've seen it work, unless I've misunderstood something.

    Also the being able to complete somersault while flying is ridiculous.

    Edit: I'm not opposed to nerfing Shackle in the slightest. It's just worth noting the issues with Balloons as well.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    Cooper said:
    Aegoth said:
    uhh no. It's definitely balloon. Need to nerf the skill, not the artie. Shackle is balanced for every class -except- jester, so therefore it's the balloon skill that's the problem. You can't make a broad, sweeping change for all classes just because your singular class is broken as all hell.
    That's pretty terrible logic. Shackle + balloon is the most ridiculous defensive moves in the game, and is OP. Balloon by itself is not. It's solely the ability to have and remove mass at will that makes balloon a problem.

    His suggestion of making you not able to wear/remove shackle while prone, paralyse, or off bal/eq would not change shackle for anyone except Jester, and isn't a broad, sweeping change.
    That's pretty wrong. Not being able to remove shackle while prone, etc is a pretty huge change for pretty much everyone. It's Jester that's the problem, not everyone else. You're proposing a change that would kill shackle for a lot of people who have no way of abusing it in the same way Jester does. So no, it's balloon that's the problem. Sorry
    Can you provide specific (non abuse) examples where shackle while prone is necessary that outlines how it is a "pretty huge change for pretty much everyone"?
    Sometimes I'm prone, off balance/eq, transfixed, whatever and want to check that I have mass up; to do that I hit my alias to wear/remove shackle, and if I remove it, hit it again to re-wear. No longer being able to do that may not be a "pretty huge change", but it is a change that's 100% unnecessary because there's nothing unbalanced about it. Making broad changes to an artefact because there's an issue with it when combined with a single ability of a single class shouldn't be the solution, in my opinion.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    By the same token:

    I'm transfixed, off balance/eq, prone and at 50% health - remove shackle, ally boomerangs you out of safety unless someone is blocking.

    Not exactly balanced, but that's not the point of discussion here. Although, it's not that much different than say Deliver or Puppet Summon. Everything has their own counterplay.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    If the issue is specifically with balloon (it is), then it's balloon that needs to change. Jesters need some heavy reworking anyway, and this is a good place to start. It's not a coincidence that Jester is still the most potent PK class in the game, bar none (well, maybe priest)
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,924 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kandra said:
    Mass does prevent adduction, but adduction was made an exception to mass-by-shackle shortly after the shackle was introduced. If that's changed, I apologise.

    Admittedly I never tested it. I just remember Maya saying it at the time.
    Shackle should stop adduction and if it doesn't, bug the shackles.

    Mine worked and randomly stopped working, and I bugged them to get them fixed. And they were fixed, so it should stop adduction.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,415 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Kaie The issue was keeping an inflated balloon, and then being able to remove shackle and go from nearly finished to flying safely. Not to mention you can do it off balance, which means you can initiate tumble before removing it and then you're both flying and relocated while broken+prone. Nearly nothing at all stops this.

    That's the issue, not the shackle. Jester shouldn't be able to fly/tumble+fly with a balloon while prone/off-balance, handsoff or not I don't know which skill you use to accomplish that, which is the one needing the fix.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You guys are weirdly blaming the balloon in that case.

    The only reason a Jester can even have a balloon inflated while prone is because shackle keeps them from being lifted. Without shackle balloon has zero impact on that situation.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Jarrod

    Being proned pops the balloon? I was under the impression that once you inflated it, it was ready for use whenever you needed it. Assuming they have an inflated balloon, no shackle, and no mass - when does the balloon work and when will it pop (other than by random RNG or being tentacled)?


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,415 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2016
    Jarrod said:
    You guys are weirdly blaming the balloon in that case.

    The only reason a Jester can even have a balloon inflated while prone is because shackle keeps them from being lifted. Without shackle balloon has zero impact on that situation.
    Oh..now I get you. You mean the moment they remove shackle they autofly if they have an inflated balloon?

    Since shackle is hard to change, and removing or wearing stuffs can happen without balance or prone, could instead make status of flying<->ground change only if got balance and not prone. So they could still remove shackle while off balance and prone, but it wont fly them, until they are on balance and standing, they fly.

    Mami
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right, but that's why I'm asking how difficult it is to really have an inflated balloon while prone.

    If you never use mass to begin with, and you get proned with an inflated balloon, that's really the same thing as removing Shackle.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Balloons pop on elevation change. So it's really easy to have an inflated balloon on you whenever you're even remotely in trouble and remove shackle for instant fly regardless of situation. Then it pops but you're fine with RoF or something.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Dochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    Edit: Okay, figured out where I was messing up.

    Definitely an issue with Shackle, not balloon.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Austere
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    If you don't have mass, inflate balloon is essentially the same as FLY isn't it? At the very least it's a really short delay with a little RNG whether it's 0-2s. Balloon itself isn't problematic, the ability to control the mass defence at your whim is the issue in conjuction with Balloon. Apart, they're fine. Together, they're not. That's why it's so hard to balance. 

    Two solutions come to mind for me. 

    #1 - You make inflate balloon essentially "FLY". It's permanent, until you want to land in which case you "POP BALLOON". Mass has no effect on it. This means Balloon handoff also forces others to fly unstoppably, which could be a problem. 

    #2 - Exactly the same solution as the above, but as Jesters have mastered the art of flying ala Balloon while Massed, they are the only ones that can do it! Balloon handoff still requires the target to not have Mass up for it to work.

    The ability to fly while prone is just generally not okay. Is there a problem just removing it from their kit? Seems like that solves the problem. 
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Easiest solution is probably keep everything as is, just make balloons pop within 2s or so when inflated. You can still hand them off to force fly in that time frame, if you're not massed you get the fly effect and the balloon pops, if you are massed it pops soon.

    You can still try to inflate before they go for the kill, but that actually requires some amount of skill, and if you see them inflate you can just not go for the finish until a short time passes.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Dochitha
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2016
    Yep, that works too. Couldn't you technically inflate balloon/fashion/inflate balloon etc? Reminds me of the old butterfly bomb/inflate balloon/fashion strategy. Was pretty funny

    for those we have never seen it: butterfly bomb knocks people in the sky to the ground periodically on a quick timer while having an inflated balloon instantly makes you fly again. So you'd fashion whenever the balloon knocked you down and then immediately fly before your target could do anything. Hue
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