A look at Satyrs...

Drot

First of all, Satyr is my favorite race by far hands down. What's not to love? ....until you look at the stats.

Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Unspecialised       13          12          11          12
Brute               15          12          11          11
Knave               13          14          10          12
Gallant             13          11          13          12
Chanter             12          12          11          14

Merrymaker
- Regenerate ENDURANCE at an increased rate.
- Have the ability to HEADSTOMP.

The racials are cool, endurance regen is decently useful, and headstomp is fun albeit probably not practically useful. As is, though, there is absolutely no reason to play a satyr. It's statistics are just categorically worse than every race. It's the same as a Tsol'aa if you want dex though, but really, who speccs dex with only 14?

Suggestions: Add one strength to all besides Brute specialization, or add one CON to all specializations. Make it on par with Xoran at least.

Any input? Or am I missing something?

Deladan

Drot said:

First of all, Satyr is my favorite race by far hands down. What's not to love? ....until you look at the stats.

Specialisation      Str.        Dex.        Con.        Int.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Unspecialised       13          12          11          12
Brute               15          12          11          11
Knave               13          14          10          12
Gallant             13          11          13          12
Chanter             12          12          11          14

Merrymaker
- Regenerate ENDURANCE at an increased rate.
- Have the ability to HEADSTOMP.

The racials are cool, endurance regen is decently useful, and headstomp is fun albeit probably not practically useful. As is, though, there is absolutely no reason to play a satyr. It's statistics are just categorically worse than every race. It's the same as a Tsol'aa if you want dex though, but really, who speccs dex with only 14?

Suggestions: Add one strength to all besides Brute specialization, or add one CON to all specializations. Make it on par with Xoran at least.

Any input? Or am I missing something?

I like that route... 

Kafziel

Every race starts with 12 across the board, then all but human get -one stat and +another. It makes -con races unappealing imo but xoran already has +str -dex and troll has +str -int so unless they double up like siren and grook there's not much to be done

Edit damn autocorrect 

P.s. if any race needs buffs it's dwarf. Terrible stats terrible racials people only pick dwarf for the rp these days

Kiet

They should really just divorce stats from races entirely at this point. I'm not sure how this is any less min-maxy than we had before, except the penalty is slightly less.

Drot

Kafziel said:

Every race starts with 12 across the board, then all but human get -one stat and +another. It makes -con races unappealing imo but xoran already has +str -dex and troll has +str -int so unless they double up like siren and grook there's not much to be done

Edit damn autocorrect 

I understand that, but I don't mind doubling up. Having -con for +strength is just....awful. Any class that would benefit from the strength needs that con.

Antonius

Leave my race the hell alone, the stats are fine as they are. You can't get something for nothing, that's simply not how the racial stats are structured.

Drot

Kiet said:

They should really just divorce stats from races entirely at this point. I'm not sure how this is any less min-maxy than we had before, except the penalty is slightly less.

Exactly. I want to be satyr, but gimping myself Is not fun.

Kafziel

Any class that benefits from any stat also wants con though that's not specific to str

Drot

Antonius said:

Leave my race the hell alone, the stats are fine as they are. You can't get something for nothing, that's simply not how the racial stats are structured.

Except only the -con races have to sacrifice anything, no matter their class. Intelligence and dexterity do absolutely nothing for a lot of classes.

Antonius

Intelligence doesn't "do absolutely nothing" for anybody, regardless of their class. I'd be fine with Kiet's suggestion of divorcing stats from races entirely, but I would not be okay with changing the stats on Satyr. That point of dexterity does a hell of a lot for me (most notably saves me 450 credits OR allows me to spec constitution if I upgrade my dirk to level 3) since I also have Serpent as one of my classes.

Aerek

Not sure how it's categorically worse? All races use a base of 12, with one "strong" stat at 13 and one "weak" stat at 11. Admittedly, any race with a CON penalty might feel that more than they might feel a STR, DEX, or INT penalty depending on their class, but Satyrs' 15 STR is particularly attractive to knights, where it can approach 19 or 20 after traits and class skills, and that toes the line of guaranteed kills on Disembowel.

Kasya

It is kind of weird that satyrs have the same base con as mhuns, which are smaller humans. But then again, con is the cheapest of the stats arties, so... 

Krypton

Wouldn't mind 12/11/12/13 for Satyr to remove the subtle insinuation from Sirens that women are smarter than men

Nakari

Honestly, I wish they'd remove the stat penalties and give human something to make up for it, or just fully divorce race stats or something. 

@kiet is right, this current system, while probably better then the old since balance mods were put into traits, still heavily penalizes choosing one's race for rp. While I like the idea of races having mechanical bonuses/penalties, it seems like with race already suffering from poorly coalesced roleplay, creating a system where people are rewarded for choosing a race for primarily mechanical reasons is only another step back. 

Removing the stat penalties would be a middle route option that would make it not suck to play a race that penalizes the main stat they need, and would bring the -con races (who are pretty frustrating to play when not artifacted) back in line. 

Aerek

I like the stat differences, myself. They're enough to give the feeling that races are different instead of bland an homogeneous, but not so large that you're required to go one race or other to be effective as a given class. 1 point of STR or INT does not invalidate you from being effective as most any class. I'm not Troll, Satyr, or Xoran as Knight and don't think I or anyone else would say I'm handicapped by my race.

Kiet

2 points of str, int, con, or dex (which is the worst case scenario for some races vs the 'optimal) does definitely make your life a lot harder though in some classes. I wouldn't even bother fighting as some classes with that. Also, last I knew you were artied, the issue is much bigger for unartied people.

Aerek

Where are you getting 2 points from? Every race comes within 1 point of each other with specialization and trait selection. and except for Serpent's DEX, I don't think 1 point in anything would make-or-break a class. And I have no stat-altering, health-boosting, or offensive artefacts. Just utility things, really. It's why I'm always fighting for combat balance for the little guys, because in some ways I still am one.

Edit: I lied, I have a level 1 health regen ring.

Edit2: I see, you mean if you wanted to roll Grook Knight, trying to compete on the stat that your race has a penalty in. Yes, I'd call that unwise, but I think that adds to the world a little. Grooks don't make good Knights. Trolls don't make good Magi. If you want to compete professionally in combat, you wouldn't do those things, but if combat wasn't someone's prime interest and they wanted to RP an odball combo like that, they could still do it with reasonable effectiveness, without being completely gimped like old races would have been. (insert anecdote about Troll Magi's Stonefist punches.)

Kiet

High stats go to 13, low stats go to 11. 13 - 11 = 2. If you're only 1 stat point behind that's not as big of a deal, but 2 is a lot.

Nakari

Personally, I don't think that disincentivizing any given race/class combo gives much of a positive for the game world. Any time we're creating a divide between the best choice for someone's rp or the best choice for combat I think we only end up with people who don't care much about the rp of their race (bad for race rp) or people who feel like it's harder for them to compete/get into fighting (bad for encouraging combat interest). 

I think that removing the penalty part of stats could be a good solution, as it would actually put all races within one point of each other, would preserve races being better at certain things, and would make it not suck to try to get into combat with a suboptimal choice. It would also handily solve the problem of -con races being a little terrible without artifacts. I think that if we want things like grook knights to be "oddball" choices, it's far better to make that a thing through rp, rather then just reducing disembowel damage.

And lastly, some penalties are just hard to justify, especially since some races ended up having penalties to things they were good at and vice-versa after the last batch of changes. Like, why should atavians make poor knights? Arcadia has far more warrior-types then dexterity using types. Why are satyrs less hearty then humans, anyways? And it's not like anyone rp's that they have less constitution then the next guy outside of a mechanical context. I just don't see how things seriously benefit for discouraging certain combinations, or certain races outright when it comes to con races.

Atalkez

Aerek said:

Where are you getting 2 points from? Every race comes within 1 point of each other with specialization and trait selection. and except for Serpent's DEX, I don't think 1 point in anything would make-or-break a class. And I have no stat-altering, health-boosting, or offensive artefacts. Just utility things, really. It's why I'm always fighting for combat balance for the little guys, because in some ways I still am one.

Edit: I lied, I have a level 1 health regen ring.

Edit2: I see, you mean if you wanted to roll Grook Knight, trying to compete on the stat that your race has a penalty in. Yes, I'd call that unwise, but I think that adds to the world a little. Grooks don't make good Knights. Trolls don't make good Magi. If you want to compete professionally in combat, you wouldn't do those things, but if combat wasn't someone's prime interest and they wanted to RP an odball combo like that, they could still do it with reasonable effectiveness, without being completely gimped like old races would have been. (insert anecdote about Troll Magi's Stonefist punches.)

Racist.

I think your race should have minimal impact on your actual stats, and possibly have classes have "statistic altering packs" so to speak.

So if you pick a Knight spec, you're automatically given +2 str from the baseline (12).
If you pick Magi, you're automatically given +2 Int from the baseline.

I don't know how viable that would be, or if it would be fair at all down the line with traits and whatnot. Just a random idea I had. Discuss.

Basileios

Wait a second...

IS SOMEONE WANTING TO MAKE SATYR NOT MAKE ME CRY AT NIGHT?!

Sweet.  Honestly, I don't see how a race who is known for 'being hardy' and partiers and a ton of other things... Have a tie for the worst con in the game.  Their stats put them directly geared towards a brawler type character, or even a glass cannon.  The lack of health really messes up their hunting (( I'm full con spec'd because I simply can't afford to have 3.2k~ hp at level 83 )).  Dwarf keeps seeming like a much better choice day in and day out because of the CON bonus to high hell, alongside the resistance to a good number of things that would make hunting less awful.

Why do I stay a satyr?  It isn't because I have art of my character or anything.  I stay a satyr because I like the RP.  Animalistic, but still humane.  Partiers, revelers, etc.  Fuzzy legs and sort of cute fluffy goat tails.  I stay it for the RP standpoint because I know I will never get into PVP in any sense of the word.  I can't keep up with it.  If races simply got to hand craft their stats a bit, I'd definitely be more happy.  Basil isn't a smart goat, but apparently he's smarter than he is dexterous AND smarter than he is sturdy without my specs.  A class shouldn't be hindered by race, or not nearly as much.  Allow a little bit of min-maxing.. or just generic swapping around.  I want to be a dumb goat who can actually survive a hit.

Drot

I think your race should have minimal impact on your actual stats, and possibly have classes have "statistic altering packs" so to speak.

So if you pick a Knight spec, you're automatically given +2 str from the baseline (12).
If you pick Magi, you're automatically given +2 Int from the baseline.

I don't know how viable that would be, or if it would be fair at all down the line with traits and whatnot. Just a random idea I had. Discuss.

I think that is a great Idea.

Basileios said:

Wait a second...

IS SOMEONE WANTING TO MAKE SATYR NOT MAKE ME CRY AT NIGHT?!

Yes, yes I am

Nakari

@Atalkez

While it sounds like it could be good, I'm a little unsure of how your idea works, and how it might interact with people wanting to choose, say, a tanky spec over a damage oriented one or what. It certainly sounds better then the current system though, imo.

Valkyn

If I could be atavian serpent with 12 con and 11 int or Str that'd be amazing. 

Atalkez

I'm sort of torn on the entire thing, really. It seems that the stance of the administration is that players can't pick their stat-packs (3 points added to your baseline of 12/12/12/12 as you choose) and are forced into pre-aligned packs.

Obviously the best-case is just let people add their 3 points however they like. While the overall majority of people talk about race RP and stuff, race is still picked for min-maxxing more often than anything else. Artefacts reduce the need for that, but anyone unartied that wants to be play Knight basically has to choose PK-relevance(STR), and not dying (CON). Without a way to mitigate anything, your base selections play a huge role in how realistic your chances are going forward.

About my other idea though:
Knights - STR or CON
Magi - INT or CON
Monk - INT or STR
Shaman - INT or CON
Serpent - DEX or CON

Maybe something like that, where you got a choice between two paths. I think this is a better option than it being tied to race the way that it is (and keeps the ability for traits to affect stats).

Although, realistically I think it would be easier to code and more effective overall if you were just given the ability to assign points to a stat at your choice. Maybe you get 2 points to add from base (lvl 0), a third upon reaching level 80, coupled with your traits.

Basileios

That sounds pretty good @Atalkez maybe have it with a 'cap' for those stat points so you don't have something like 15(+2 for spec) in a stat.  Gives it +1, hell.  Even allow for people to take negatives to get more points so long as they don't go too far down.

Kiet

Don't allow negatives, everyone will just dump as much dex/str as possible depending on class and break everything.

Drot

Kiet said:

Don't allow negatives, everyone will just dump as much dex/str as possible depending on class and break everything.

Agreed. I would go like 25 con 25 strength nothing else.

Basileios

Okay.  Maybe have people be able to take a point (or even two!) of negative to get 1 point elsewhere.  It makes a 'dump' stat of sorts, but also allows for people to specialize in things, and SUCK at others.

Kiet

The problem is there's nothing to suck at most of the time. The only stat that is always bad to lose is con. If you're a mage you don't care about dex or str at all. There is no sucking, because it doesn't matter.

The statpacks as is already make you do something similar, anyway. All it would take is offer the current array of stat arrangements as independent options.

Basileios

Mmn.  Well, then just giving 3 stats, I guess.  I'd just like to stop sobbing to myself over how bad Satyrs are compared to their lore of "WE'RE PARTIERS!  Good lord do we have a weak constitution and alcohol screws us up so bad."