Classlead Dec 2015

Sobriquet

What's the difference between the Shaman's snare ability and Jester using Hangedman? I've not been a Shaman but you description there indicates they are essentially the same.?

Atalkez

There's really not, but I don't thing Hangedman is exactly a good mechanic itself either!

Kiet

Atalkez said:

Magi is a prep class. Shutting down a momentum class does not shut down Magi offense in the slightest.

Yeah,same reason BM had to lose evade. What's reflection eq like these days?

Dochitha

Alaskar said:

Spamming reflection completely stalls magi offense too. Reflection already nerfed enough. Also, I've spammed reflection against serpents and it made little difference.

Serpent is quick. Magi can effectively halt momentum classes' offense with reflection-spam without punishment, hence it has to be balanced. It is meant to be a breather, but it's been used as a spammable skill to totally reset/negate enemy's buildup.

Atalkez said:

Magi is a prep class. Shutting down a momentum class does not shut down Magi offense in the slightest.

@Atalkez is right. 

At this point, prep classes have abilities that can stop momentum class pretty easily, and can be timing-insensitive, while momentum classes have little to handle prep class during their prep, and when they are finally pulling their kill sequence, the defense window often within 200ms, and much less spammable. Though if you survive they have to lolreprep.

Yae

Report #11
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Submitted
Skill       : Metamorphosis  Ability     : Bind
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
With Hydra specifically, the triple balance allows a single Druid to undeaf, prone, and entangle a target 
simultaneously. This requires no preparation and puts an unmatched level of hinder on a target. With any 
followup in groups it's incredibly powerful and needs to be toned back significantly. Given that it's also a 
web entangle as opposed to a rope entangle, it also stacks hinder unlike any other attack in the game (web 
bomb requires a timer and the target to not have simple triggers to store them and web tattoo is stopped by 
buckawns).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Disallow Bind being used with other attacks. Require all three heads to be on balance and put the other two 
off-balance for 2-3s when using Bind. It's more powerful than other similar effects considering it's web 
instead of rope and can stack with rope, and has no need of additional attacks tied to it
Solution #2:
In addition to solution 1, change Hydra Bind to a rope effect as opposed to a web effect, disallowing stacking 
of entangles as easily
Solution #3:
In addition to solution 1, change web and rope entangles to no longer be separate, instead having a single 
writhe clear any web/rope effects on you at once. Keep them separate from impale still.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:frown: I feel like there are generally only nerfs hitting my class when it comes to classleads. 

Hydra bind is already a ropes affliction. It was originally considered web, but due to combining it with reclamation constrict (which was also ropes), it was changed last classlead to ropes. It has a minimum of 12 seconds before it can be used again, which means that it can't be spammed endlessly on someone, though it makes a good starter. We can use the third head again after 3 seconds for other abilities, but the bind stays on its own cooldown. We can't morph into anything else until it's clear, which leaves us to only limb prepping and bite/snapping or roaring.

Dochitha

Yae said:

Report #11
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Submitted
Skill       : Metamorphosis  Ability     : Bind
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
With Hydra specifically, the triple balance allows a single Druid to undeaf, prone, and entangle a target 
simultaneously. This requires no preparation and puts an unmatched level of hinder on a target. With any 
followup in groups it's incredibly powerful and needs to be toned back significantly. Given that it's also a 
web entangle as opposed to a rope entangle, it also stacks hinder unlike any other attack in the game (web 
bomb requires a timer and the target to not have simple triggers to store them and web tattoo is stopped by 
buckawns).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Disallow Bind being used with other attacks. Require all three heads to be on balance and put the other two 
off-balance for 2-3s when using Bind. It's more powerful than other similar effects considering it's web 
instead of rope and can stack with rope, and has no need of additional attacks tied to it
Solution #2:
In addition to solution 1, change Hydra Bind to a rope effect as opposed to a web effect, disallowing stacking 
of entangles as easily
Solution #3:
In addition to solution 1, change web and rope entangles to no longer be separate, instead having a single 
writhe clear any web/rope effects on you at once. Keep them separate from impale still.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:frown: I feel like there are generally only nerfs hitting my class when it comes to classleads. 

Hydra bind is already a ropes affliction. It was originally considered web, but due to combining it with reclamation constrict (which was also ropes), it was changed last classlead to ropes. It has a minimum of 12 seconds before it can be used again, which means that it can't be spammed endlessly on someone, though it makes a good starter. We can use the third head again after 3 seconds for other abilities, but the bind stays on its own cooldown. We can't morph into anything else until it's clear, which leaves us to only limb prepping and bite/snapping or roaring.

I do not understand the class well, but based on what's stated as a problem, I don't think it needs a change. It already requires using 3 head balances to entangle, cooldown and limitations, and it's not that sick comparing to hangedman and spiritlore tarnel. It also looks like the report comes from group combat perspective, well...the right group pairing is always OP anyway, that's the fun.

Kiet

It doesn't take 3 head balances to entangle, that's the problem. The cooldown is irrelevant when you're group-ganking someone because they'll probably die from it.

"Every class is op in groups" is a bad argument, too. Otherwise we'd still have enfeeble/absolve and the like. Not really any worse than hangedman, though.

Amranu

Tarnel already has a hard cooldown. Just because you don't chase me when I leave and let me get tarnel back up doesn't mean it needs changes.

Alrena

Hydra bind has a cooldown. Tarnel has a pretty high chance of losing the spirit bind, meaning you must tether the spirit (3 second balance) before you can do it again. I do think Hangedman needs a cooldown similar to Hydra bind or Tarnel, it's the only one that can be spammed again and again. 

Aegoth

Just because hydra bind has a cooldown doesn't mean it isnt a problem. Bring on the nerf hammer

Atalkez

Amranu said:

Tarnel already has a hard cooldown. Just because you don't chase me when I leave and let me get tarnel back up doesn't mean it needs changes.

If you think binding ability with next to no cost "doesn't need changes", then we have to disagree there!

Amranu

Tarnel has a significant cost - whether you want to use it to gain fashions or just for hinder.

If the latter, you're tethering. You get one use of it then have to re-tether which takes 3 seconds eq as Alrena mentioned.

If the former, you bind it. This takes up a binding slot which itself is a huge cost, and on use has a 50% chance of losing that binding. Re-binding requires being prone and channeling for awhile during which time we do nothing. This form does have the added advantage of having a faster balance though (about equivalent to vodun bind).

Rangor

Aegoth said:

Just because hydra bind has a cooldown doesn't mean it isnt a problem. Bring on the nerf hammer

Druid has a whole host of problems, bind being the least of them. Bring the "buff" hammer!

It could be argued that combo'ing stampede with head balances is OP though, I'd find that hard to defend against. :P

Jovolo

The main issue the classlead has with Hydra Bind is that it isn't a Ropes affliction, but Yae has already stated that it is. So  how do you balance it for groups without affecting 1v1 combat? Also what makes it so overpowered exactly? 

Aerek

Yeah, it doesn't seem any worse than Hangedman, just in that more people actually play Druid than Jester, so it's more noticeable when fighting Eleusis. (There's not really a city full of Jesters, or I'm sure we'd weep about that all day) Not defending Hangedman, it's pretty obnoxious, but it would be weird to nerf things like Tarnel and Bind, that actually do have cooldowns/drawbacks, without bringing the hammer down on Hangedman, which has 1v1 imbalances as well as groups.

Yae said:

:frown: I feel like there are generally only nerfs hitting my class when it comes to classleads.

To be fair, this is partially because Makarios and Co is pretty good about giving us all awesome toys when we get overhauled, and then we work to iron out the cases where it's just too much or (rarely) still isn't enough. Just kinda the system we've settled into.

Exelethril

Seragorn showed me the true meaning of hangedman spam yesterday, pretty OP for groups and for destroying 1 vs 1 momentum to heal up.

Xinna

I don't think Tarnel is bad on its own, but the combination of it and bind (essentially you can -sometimes- bind without wasting fashions, and worst case you can still bind but lose two fashions) is problematic.

That being said, until Maligus becomes usable it's basically necessary if you want to use Vodun. Fashion = 0 hinder, and in today's momentum offense world going a few attacks without any hinder means you -need- stupid hinder to catch back up and survive. If not bind, it'll be shield spam, running/escape abilities, or just dying for trying to use fashion.

Is it fun? No. Buff Maligus, nerf bind/Tarnel!

Amranu

Endorse classlead 62 for a framework for Maligus that's both able to be balanced and provides counterplay for both sides.

Xinna

Daeir said:

You say buff maligus, and he'll increase it to like 16 fashions or something with manaleech.

People still probably wouldn't use it.

Maintaining the exact same functioning is not what I meant! Doesn't address the issue. There are classleads that do.