City Guards

Jarrod

Atalkez said:

Jarrod said:

You talk as if you're the only one that knows guard mechanics, and how they work. Sure, it's not common knowledge, but you're also not the only one in the game that understands them.

We all know about lyre, flying, evading and how to adjust the guards to be better situation for our group. That doesn't make dealing with guards fun, just because you know how to counter them. I prefer countering skills, not a mechanic that anyone can mash an alias if they don't have Silence in the room. 

Based on responses in this thread, I might be the only one. Maybe if people started listing the ways I've countered guards most effectively I'll start thinking otherwise, but until then it's kind of funny seeing you reiterate the same things others have said like it's they're only things possible.

You're not the only one wanting to keep a few tricks to yourself bud!

Ok, but I've literally never seen a trick from you to counter guards, and I've used them in the past to counter guards.

Rip

@Jarrod...no offense. SHUT UP!

Tharvis

I'm not even interested anymore in even considering anything that comes out of this thread as valid with the continious mudslinging and breaking down eachothers arguments purely from the standpoint of "I don't think this is how x should be used, we don't have fun when -you- use x this way, but when we use x this way it's fine"

and @Rip. You may want to read forum rules. Specifically number one.

Jonathin

I don't want to play your way. If you don't like guards, kill them, learn to avoid them, or don't raid. It's that simple. You can argue that guards are not intended to be used in one way or another, but when it comes down to it: guards are meant to be used to guard the city which includes expelling intruders. That's pretty much the definition of a guard. Don't any of you dare sit there and tell me that I have to play a certain way because it suits you better. No, I won't go out of my way to make your life miserable, but I'm not going to play in such a way that leads to nothing but frustration and hopelessness for myself.

What is the point of raiding if the entire city just ignores you because they can't use guards? What are you going to do? Go through uprooting totems just to be griefy because that city doesn't want to feed you kills and lose yet another room? Yeah, let's make those citizens spend hours implanting new totems. That'll teach them.

Find someone that wants to play your game with you, rather than trying to force your game on unwilling participants. I've posted positive things about the raids thus far because with guards it's been about 50/50 on the win/loss ratio. Take that away from us and Hashan makes a 180 in the progress department and goes straight back to dormancy. Just because your city has people willing to step up doesn't mean mine does too.

Jhui

I think most people will agree with you @Jonathin .  What you are talking about are exactly the reasons city defenses are already so strong. Definitely a good thing.

What I am trying to emphasize is that they will be used in every raid situation, not just the obnoxious ones.  It's already beginning.  Every raid pretty much follows with <blah> has stationed a guard x20 on the logs.  Then the next city does it because the first city did it to them, and it's a vicious cycle.  A very unfun one.

Whether this result is worse than having to give up a room every now and then or not being able to reliably eject raiders, I am not sure.  That's definitely up for discussion.

Now, we don't want this game to become Raid-chaea, but from what I can tell, there are pretty much only 3 people that start any form of offensive raiding on a regular basis:  myself, austere, and xinna.  Offensive raiding is already a pretty tough task, and that could be the reason not many people do it.  A lot of people give up on trying to lead after the first situation where they try to raid and it's not fun because the defending city makes it not fun.  That is the defending city's choice, for sure, but whether it should be as simple as moving guards, I'm not so sure.

Rip

@Jarrod, @Tharvis and everyone else.... - So so sorry about that rude comment...my bad, and it won't happen again.  Thanks for the heads up!

Draekar

Actually just reading back through the previous I feel a mechanic that needs to be fixed is offensive shrines, either you can't raise them on enemy territory, or if you can they don't worldburn. That shit is obnoxious as F.

 

Tharvis

Draekar said:

Actually just reading back through the previous I feel a mechanic that needs to be fixed is offensive shrines, either you can't raise them on enemy territory, or if you can they don't worldburn. That shit is obnoxious as F.

 

shrines in general just need to be looked at, both offensively and defensively. Though I recall Sarapis saying that was on the list

Anedhel

Daeir said:

Just remove the dumb 5 stack in every room thing and have small groups (2-3) guards patrol the city at regular intervals, so that raids can be timed around intercepting the patrol for a particular area, handling said patrol, and then settling in for the raid.

Reduce their overall lethality to make the patrols dangerous for single people and smaller groups, but not enough to completely curbstomp a full group of raiders. Leave 5 stacked guard rooms for the Guardian and other "vital" areas marked by the city government up to a maximum cap depending on the number of barracks the city has. Maybe like, one 5 stacked room per barracks.

All attempts to reposition guards during a sanctioned raid will fail due to an increased state of military awareness, speeding up patrols in other parts of the city. CFH will pull the nearest patrol into the crier's room posthaste.

Alternatively, lock guard locations when a sanction's declared, and give people the ability to get guards to follow them depending on their army rank (Everyone AR 5 (maybe 4, but there are a lot of AR 4's) gets to ask one group of five guards to follow them once per sanction, AR 6 gets to do it twice, maybe? I mean once per City if there's no AR 6 around, not once per AR 5). Shouldn't totally discard guards as a method of ejection, but it seems to me like a strong enough weapon that it should be a fire-once kind of deal. That way, if the enemy's really determined, they can come in and hunker down somewhere else, away from the guards that were moved, or they can bugger off.

ETA: Could also, instead of having a follow command, be based around an order you give at your City's barracks (or a similarly significant room) where you issue an order for the guards to go to a specific room and they start moving there, and give you a warning when they're two rooms out, one room out, and in the room on CT. This would also be the once-per-sanction thing.

Kakotas

Tharvis said:

Draekar said:

Actually just reading back through the previous I feel a mechanic that needs to be fixed is offensive shrines, either you can't raise them on enemy territory, or if you can they don't worldburn. That shit is obnoxious as F.

 

shrines in general just need to be looked at, both offensively and defensively. Though I recall Sarapis saying that was on the list

As I recall that's been on the list since @Pentharian became one with the force... But your right they did need to be looked at. Offensive shrines probably shouldn't be an option (something about sanctifying ground) Or should require a minimum level of corpses vs just raising it with straight up gold.

Tharvis

@Kakotas raising it with corpses would require a massive increase in requirement, let a dragon clear Istarion and you have enough corpses for two, three shrines, four if you're lucky and can clear the spiderweb too before your corpses start decaying

Trey

Rip said:

City guards, make them "roam about", at the very least...I am not sure about this raiding/guard stuff...seems bleak.

All I know is 90% of you SIT on guards and sit there FOREVER...Which to me is just not what they were meant for.

"Guard Hugging" ...GO!

       

Kez

How bloody hard do guards hit now?

Last I knew (admittedly a very long time ago) they were comparable to goblins and I know they got stronger after begging from all sides, but no idea how much.

Can five guards actually wipe out a group of 10+ fully alert raiders?

Tharvis

Kez said:

How bloody hard do guards hit now?

Last I knew (admittedly a very long time ago) they were comparable to goblins and I know they got stronger after begging from all sides, but no idea how much.

Can five guards actually wipe out a group of 10+ fully alert raiders?

constables can't, unless they get backup from defenders.

Rip

@Trey, I have not idea what you even mean but I am going to take it as an Insalt...<-see what I did there!

I don't know, dashing into Totems/Guards is completely the most embarrassing moment...

Isn't this whole thread about getting rid of "city guards" all together??

Xinna

Jhui said:

I think most people will agree with you @Jonathin .  What you are talking about are exactly the reasons city defenses are already so strong. Definitely a good thing.

What I am trying to emphasize is that they will be used in every raid situation, not just the obnoxious ones.  It's already beginning.  Every raid pretty much follows with <blah> has stationed a guard x20 on the logs.  Then the next city does it because the first city did it to them, and it's a vicious cycle.  A very unfun one.

Whether this result is worse than having to give up a room every now and then or not being able to reliably eject raiders, I am not sure.  That's definitely up for discussion.

Now, we don't want this game to become Raid-chaea, but from what I can tell, there are pretty much only 3 people that start any form of offensive raiding on a regular basis:  myself, austere, and xinna.  Offensive raiding is already a pretty tough task, and that could be the reason not many people do it.  A lot of people give up on trying to lead after the first situation where they try to raid and it's not fun because the defending city makes it not fun.  That is the defending city's choice, for sure, but whether it should be as simple as moving guards, I'm not so sure.

I'm genuinely not trying to disparage particular factions or anything here, but honestly, everytime I try to raid Ashtan we're so outnumbered/outmatched due to Ashtan's city population that whether or not guards are used is irrelevant. They are just overkill. I think, what is, in your opinion, "fixing" guard mechanics will only really help Ashtan raid without guards getting in the way. This makes you quite a bit biased. As Jarrod said, we don't really have a problem messing with Targossas even when they try to use guards, and as I said, we have a problem messing with Ashtan regardless of whether guards are used. So from a purely empirical standpoint, looking at how things actually are and how guard changes would actually impact things - they'd help -you- raid Mhaldor better. You keep pointing out how guards keep getting in your way there. But that's all it'd really do.

I suppose my point is that city population sizes and the gross disparities of number of citizens repel raids a lot more than anything else. I don't think we've ever really held back a raid solely on the ground of "Oh, we won't be able to deal with guards." So, would I like it if we could raid more? Definitely, particularly if we could raid Ashtan effectively, without taking advantage of major down times. But to me guards aren't really an issue, and on the contrary, they help to balance things out for the smaller factions and allow us to at least defend our city sometimes, even if we can't always attack all of the other cities (mostly just Ashtan).

Both Ashtan and Targossas have managed to tank us despite guards, as well.

But yeah, in my opinion the reason out-of-city skirmishes are more fun than raids is because they aren't full city vs. full city and thus can be far more even in terms of numbers.

Kakotas

Tharvis said:

@Kakotas raising it with corpses would require a massive increase in requirement, let a dragon clear Istarion and you have enough corpses for two, three shrines, four if you're lucky and can clear the spiderweb too before your corpses start decaying

Well if it's not a massive increase in requirement then.. make it more expensive to raise inside enemy cities (should be an easy way to toggle that). I mean when I think about a deucalion shrine inside say Mhaldor it makes sense there would need to be extra there. Same for a sartani shrine inside targossas.

Jhui

Xinna said:

I'm genuinely not trying to disparage particular factions or anything here, but honestly, everytime I try to raid Ashtan we're so outnumbered/outmatched due to Ashtan's city population that whether or not guards are used is irrelevant. They are just overkill. I think, what is, in your opinion, "fixing" guard mechanics will only really help Ashtan raid without guards getting in the way. This makes you quite a bit biased. As Jarrod said, we don't really have a problem messing with Targossas even when they try to use guards, and as I said, we have a problem messing with Ashtan regardless of whether guards are used. So from a purely empirical standpoint, looking at how things actually are and how guard changes would actually impact things - they'd help -you- raid Mhaldor better. You keep pointing out how guards keep getting in your way there. But that's all it'd really do.

I suppose my point is that city population sizes and the gross disparities of number of citizens repel raids a lot more than anything else. I don't think we've ever really held back a raid solely on the ground of "Oh, we won't be able to deal with guards." So, would I like it if we could raid more? Definitely, particularly if we could raid Ashtan effectively, without taking advantage of major down times. But to me guards aren't really an issue, and on the contrary, they help to balance things out for the smaller factions and allow us to at least defend our city sometimes, even if we can't always attack all of the other cities (mostly just Ashtan).

Both Ashtan and Targossas have managed to tank us despite guards, as well.

But yeah, in my opinion the reason out-of-city skirmishes are more fun than raids is because they aren't full city vs. full city and thus can be far more even in terms of numbers.

You are painting an interesting picture on how you feel that I am thinking about the situation.  I am not worried about manipulating guard mechanics on the forums to make myself or Ashtan stronger.   I hope no one believes that..that would be pretty sad.  I have enough self confidence to try and be the best no matter what mechanics we're up against.

Outside of that first part, I see your point, definitely.  Won't argue anything about it and it's a fair one to have.  Downside is, it makes a city that's already hard to raid even harder.  Don't think anyone's wrong here.

Guess it's just a matter of what we think is worse.  Raiding becoming a bitter 'let's station guards' fest or raiders becoming tougher to move out of the back corners of cities.

either works for me, I just hope whichever direction is used responsibly so that everyone doesn't hate each other.

Xinna

I didn't say you were deliberately attempting to improve only your faction, only that you have a bias because your faction is likely stopped by guards more than other factions. It wasn't an accusation.

Siduri

I'd be all for guards being less deadly, but having more staying power, by the way. Make them help the defenders, not replace them.

Rangor

Xinna said:

I didn't say you were deliberately attempting to improve only your faction, only that you have a bias because your faction is likely stopped by guards more than other factions. It wasn't an accusation.

Have you tried raiding Ashtan when they have both competent defenders and use guards? It's no dance in the park!

Rangor

Rangor said:

Xinna said:

I didn't say you were deliberately attempting to improve only your faction, only that you have a bias because your faction is likely stopped by guards more than other factions. It wasn't an accusation.

Have you tried raiding Ashtan when they have both competent defenders and use guards? It's no dance in the park!

Raiding Mhaldor against guards+worldburn+decent defence group is pretty harsh too by the way!

Xinna

Factions in Achaea have gone without guards too. Shallam/Targossas when they didn't have a city and were stuck in New Hope, and Mhaldor when Shaitan/Apollyon killed all their guards and made them defend without them for a while. I'd love a guardless Achaea. Immovable guards aren't quite the same thing since what -I- hate about guards is the fact that only what, two classes?, really have any means at all of attacking people who are standing in well-guarded locations. But that's an entirely different matter.

Greys

@Siduri kindof like swashbucklers? They really cannot kill on their own but are enough to give an edge to defenders.

Caladbolg

Why not turn the call for help ability off when sanctions are put in.

Do cities need an auto eject button? Yes.. Yes they do. Does it need to be balanced with a long ass cooldown perhaps once a day or once a week? Yes.

@Rip I disagree with the guard situation I feel strongly about guards because sometimes you need a place to sit and be able to have conversations and interact with people with out the major fear of dying. Calling guards constantly and beckoning people into guards with lame ass tricks is pretty annoying though. Would like to see something changed with that.

Now the auto eject button on the other hand. I personally think that Cities need a way to basically say no. don't raid me right now every now and then. I also feel like this would be a useless ability because it's going to get spammed everytime it's off cooldown and someones raiding.

I would also like to suggest if call for help ability has to stay on during sanctions then remove the ability for guards to enter rooms with tanks in them.

tldr version. Why not turn the call for help ability off during sanctions.
Cities need a way to not get raided sometimes because getting raided 24/7 is annoying as fuck.
We need guards for afk purposes. 

Jarrod

Modifying guard mechanics based on sanction is a really poor idea imo. Sanction is not something difficult to achieve, and in many situations it can be gotten from border skirmishes or by a couple of novices/unaware people walking into the raiding group. Basing city defense capability on removing options when the situation becomes worse is a good way to discourage more people from engaging at all.

I think worldburn is a different beast (given required city theological focus, access to Order members, etc), so if it were to be looked at it should be separate from guards.

Siduri

Greys said:

@Siduri kindof like swashbucklers? They really cannot kill on their own but are enough to give an edge to defenders.

Yeah, exactly what I had in mind.

Greys

@Siduri only concern is a decrease in lethality does mean its easier to kill them during offpeak hours for the city.