You're hot, then you're cold

Khaibit

She is wearing:

   a short, military jacket of ivory, a short dress of ivory wool, a tattered golden wrist sash, a 

delicate belt of golden chains, a pair of ivory military boots, Gloves of Harvesting, ivory robes, a 

Ceylonese bracelet, a flame-toned ribbon, a red admiral butterfly haircomb, and a gold locket 

containing a portrait of Seftin.

(socks and underwear also being worn)

The air temperature around you is measured at 95 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 95 F.

The relative humidity is at 16%.

The winds around you blow to the northwest at 13 mph.

| Warmth  : under-dressed   

I'm don't think I'm underdressed for that heat!
Overdressed maybe.. 

Sarathai

The air temperature around you is measured at 115 F.
The apparent temperature is at a steady 115 F.
The relative humidity is at 0%.
The winds around you blow to the southwest at 11 mph.

The Istar Jungle ("hot and humid" got at least one part right). Had to take off my robes (was down to shirt, pants and sandals).

Speaking of robes, do robes of the magi have any effect on/as clothing? Or armour?

Shirszae

I am curious. I know there are a lot of messages for being over-dressed in a hot area, but what about being under-dressed in cold climates? I've yet to see any message about being freezing or cold or anything such.

Arditi

Shirszae said:

I am curious. I know there are a lot of messages for being over-dressed in a hot area, but what about being under-dressed in cold climates? I've yet to see any message about being freezing or cold or anything such.

You might have had weathering up. If its effects in hot weather are any indication, it should prevent most forms of being cold.

Shirszae

Hmm, that is sort of disappointing. I mean, its nice that skills can have an effect, but I want to feel cold too

Basileios

Weathering OP.  It makes you be able to be nude in the Tundra AND gives +1 CON.  #GiveDruidsSomethingSimilar
#PayForTheTransitionBackToMonk

Shirszae

Basileios said:

Weathering OP.  It makes you be able to be nude in the Tundra AND gives +1 CON.  #GiveDruidsSomethingSimilar
#PayForTheTransitionBackToMonk

Does the Tundra actually have a weather now? Last I checked Kamleikan, it was imperceptible still.

Basileios

I-It was a Joke Shirszae...

Shirszae

Basileios said:

I-It was a Joke Shirszae...

Oh. Oops. 

Basileios

The air temperature around you is measured at 26 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 11 F.

The relative humidity is at 8%.

The winds around you blow to the southwest at 12 mph.

My grove.  2 rooms away it is 70 F.  WHY IS THE WESTERN ITHMIA SO FRIGGIN COLD? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.  TWO ROOMS TO THE NORTH, ONTO THE ROAD IS 70

PS: This was during the day in the mid-summer.

Trevize

Basileios said:

The air temperature around you is measured at 26 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 11 F.

The relative humidity is at 8%.

The winds around you blow to the southwest at 12 mph.

My grove.  2 rooms away it is 70 F.  WHY IS THE WESTERN ITHMIA SO FRIGGIN COLD? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.  TWO ROOMS TO THE NORTH, ONTO THE ROAD IS 70

PS: This was during the day in the mid-summer.

Shade.

Cut down the trees. It'll help.

Vayne

Basileios said:

The air temperature around you is measured at 26 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 11 F.

The relative humidity is at 8%.

The winds around you blow to the southwest at 12 mph.

My grove.  2 rooms away it is 70 F.  WHY IS THE WESTERN ITHMIA SO FRIGGIN COLD? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.  TWO ROOMS TO THE NORTH, ONTO THE ROAD IS 70

PS: This was during the day in the mid-summer.

Trees actually cool of an area very well and decrease the temperature in their shade by a considerable margin. All that photosynthesizing and stuff.

Tibitha

I freaking love the weather so much. 

Yesterday six random people ended up in the frozen room below the barracks instead of Rally because it was so bloody hot outside :awesome: 

That being said, the wind is a little on the ridiculous side. I regularly find myself in 30mph - 60mph winds. That's like gale force man... how am I still standing? HOW IS IT SO WINDY

Tharvis

Tibitha said:

HOW IS IT SO WINDY

sorry

Tibitha

Tharvis said:

Tibitha said:

HOW IS IT SO WINDY

sorry

:eh: 

Shirszae

So. even without weathering, wearing only shirt and trousers, and on the coldest place I've managed to find (Caer Witrin) I've yet to see any cold-related message, which makes me a sad panda.

Trey

Khaibit said:

She is wearing:

   a short, military jacket of ivory, a short dress of ivory wool, a tattered golden wrist sash, a 

delicate belt of golden chains, a pair of ivory military boots, Gloves of Harvesting, ivory robes, a 

Ceylonese bracelet, a flame-toned ribbon, a red admiral butterfly haircomb, and a gold locket 

containing a portrait of Seftin.

(socks and underwear also being worn)

The air temperature around you is measured at 95 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 95 F.

The relative humidity is at 16%.

The winds around you blow to the northwest at 13 mph.

| Warmth  : under-dressed   

I'm don't think I'm underdressed for that heat!
Overdressed maybe.. 

Why the hell is there a comma there? It does not belong there.

Tael

Trey said:

Khaibit said:

She is wearing:

   a short, military jacket of ivory, a short dress of ivory wool, a tattered golden wrist sash, a 

delicate belt of golden chains, a pair of ivory military boots, Gloves of Harvesting, ivory robes, a 

Ceylonese bracelet, a flame-toned ribbon, a red admiral butterfly haircomb, and a gold locket 

containing a portrait of Seftin.

(socks and underwear also being worn)

The air temperature around you is measured at 95 F.

The apparent temperature is at a steady 95 F.

The relative humidity is at 16%.

The winds around you blow to the northwest at 13 mph.

| Warmth  : under-dressed   

I'm don't think I'm underdressed for that heat!
Overdressed maybe.. 

Why the hell is there a comma there? It does not belong there.

I don't know if the comma was in the original design or not, but I've had commas like that inserted into a lot of my designs over the years after I submitted them.

English comma usage with adjectives is fairly complicated and at least one of the reviewers seems to deal with the difficulty of knowing what to do by erring on the side of always having commas between adjectives.

Which comes across as strange since, if anything, English errs on the side of not having commas. In this instance, the "military" is part of a compound word, so the comma is unconventional. And you also don't get them with "cumulative" adjectives, nor with a number of other, somewhat-random "coordinate" adjectives: both "wide red barn" and "wide, red barn" are conventional punctuations for instance, and "little black dress" is far more conventional than "little, black dress" even though "a dress that is little and black" sounds more or less fine in a way that is clearly distinct from "a jacket that is short and military").

Sena

The comma also depends as much on what sounds good (with people often putting more of a pause between words when there's a comma) as what's technically correct. With the "little black dress" example, you'll rarely find it with a comma, but if you replace "little" with "small" it would usually be written with a comma.

Trevize

Sena said:

The comma also depends as much on what sounds good (with people often putting more of a pause between words when there's a comma) as what's technically correct. With the "little black dress" example, you'll rarely find it with a comma, but if you replace "little" with "small" it would usually be written with a comma.

To expand on what Sena said, two good rules. If you can both switch the adjectives, and insert and 'and' without it sounding weird, it could use a comma. If not, don't.

A black, little dress.
A little and black dress.

Awkward.

A military, short jacket.
A short and military jacket.

Awkward.

A small and black dress.
A black, small dress.

Not awkward!

edit: to clarify! A lot of combinations can be used with and without. Rarely is it actually wrong to do either. What you're implying changes, however.

By not adding a comma, you're treating what's ahead as one item.

A small black dress says: a black dress that is small.
A small, black dress says: a dress that is black and small.

Antonius

Uhh... "A black, small dress." seems incredibly awkward to me, so I don't see why that would be a valid starting point. "A black and small dress" is similarly bad. It's definitely no less awkward than any of the other examples from your post.

Trevize

Antonius said:

Uhh... "A black, small dress." seems incredibly awkward to me, so I don't see why that would be a valid starting point. "A black and small dress" is similarly bad. It's definitely no less awkward than any of the other examples from your post.

I'd probably not include a comma, honestly, but I do feel it's much less awkward than the rest. That said, I just used that example as it was the last thing Sena listed.

Some better examples:
a small lightweight sword or a small, lightweight sword?

a small and lightweight sword - ok
a lightweight, small sword - ok

thus: a small, lightweight sword

a blank recipe sketch or a blank, recipe sketch?

a blank and recipe sketch - wtf no
a recipe, blank sketch - definitely no!

thus: a blank recipe sketch

edit: fixed some typos. I shouldn't be talking grammar when I'm this tired

Tael

Trevize said:

Sena said:

The comma also depends as much on what sounds good (with people often putting more of a pause between words when there's a comma) as what's technically correct. With the "little black dress" example, you'll rarely find it with a comma, but if you replace "little" with "small" it would usually be written with a comma.

To expand on what Sena said, two good rules. If you can both switch the adjectives, and insert and 'and' without it sounding weird, it could use a comma. If not, don't.

A black, little dress.
A little and black dress.

Awkward.

A military, short jacket.
A short and military jacket.

Awkward.

A small and black dress.
A black, small dress.

Not awkward!

edit: to clarify! A lot of combinations can be used with and without. Rarely is it actually wrong to do either. What you're implying changes, however.

By not adding a comma, you're treating what's ahead as one item.

A small black dress says: a black dress that is small.
A small, black dress says: a dress that is black and small.

There are a number of complicating issues here.

"a black, little dress" is awkward because it doesn't follow normal English adjective-ordering conventions. English grammar classes often fail to recognize that English has fairly complicated constraints on the ordering of many adjectives - and it sounds very odd when people order them in ways that don't accord with those conventions.

Regarding "a black, small dress", there's a similar complication. "a small, black dress" would be thoroughly unconventional, there shouldn't be a comma there - the reason a comma seems acceptable in "a black, small dress" is that commas are also sometimes used to signal that ordering conventions aren't being followed, or more generally just as a marker that you're doing something linguistically weird (I think there's a pretty clear intonational difference between the spoken forms of "a small black dress" and "a black, small dress" too).

Then you have the totally separate issue of noun-noun compounds like "military jacket", where "military" isn't an adjective at all (your "recipe sketch" is also a noun-noun compound). There's no question of how to order the adjectives in "a short military jacket" because there's only one adjective! Writing "a military, short jacket" is exactly akin to writing "a black, full board" to mean "a full blackboard" (some people are erroneously taught that if there's a space, it can't be a compound, but that's demonstrably false - "military jacket" is as much a compound as "blackboard").

To make matters worse, there are also adjective-noun compounds like "soft drink". So even though you would say "a soft black drink" if you were following normal adjective ordering with the two, it has to be "a black soft drink" because that "soft" is actually part of the compound, not a normal modifying adjective.

In the end, the "cumulative" and "coordinate" thing most people are taught is actually a terrible analysis. "a black dress that is small" and "a dress that is black and small" are synonymous: ∃x[dress'(x) ^ small'(x) ^ black'(x)]. You're tricking yourself into believing that the pragmatic difference that arises from which adjectives you're making predicative in "a black dress that is small" and "a dress that is black and small" corresponds to a pragmatic difference between "a small, black dress" and "a small black dress", but there isn't the same pragmatic convention without the predication - "a small, black dress" doesn't have a conventional meaning distinct from "a small black dress", it's just an unconventional punctuation (though, again, sometimes people use commas in English to just signal "I mean something unconventional" here, so it's not abnormal that you would feel like there's some difference in meaning - there just isn't any convention as to what that difference would be here). The "and" test can thus fail you for a number of reasons.

The actual reason commas end up between adjectives in English isn't that their semantics are somehow "cumulative" or not - it's not anything semantic at all - you get a comma when you have multiple adjectives that belong to the same ordering category such that there's no convention for what order they should go in (this is why "black little dress" sounds weird and "little black dress" sounds fine, whereas "flowery, striped dress" sounds about as good as "striped, flowery dress"). If you really care and you don't want to just trust your intuitions for comma usage with adjectives, you can look up an English grammar (might I recommend Huddleston and Pullum 2002?) and find a list of ordering categories that will be a better guide for you than the "and" test. But most of the time, intuitions are fine and comma usage with adjectives is so variable in practice anyway that, unless you're writing to a specific style manual, there's not much use worrying about it.

Trevize

Tael said:

There are a number of complicating issues here.

"a black, little dress" is awkward because it doesn't follow normal English adjective-ordering conventions. English grammar classes often fail to recognize that English has fairly complicated constraints on the ordering of many adjectives - and it sounds very odd when people order them in ways that don't accord with those conventions.

Regarding "a black, small dress", there's a similar complication. "a small, black dress" would be thoroughly unconventional, there shouldn't be a comma there - the reason a comma seems acceptable in "a black, small dress" is that commas are also sometimes used to signal that ordering conventions aren't being followed, or more generally just as a marker that you're doing something linguistically weird (I think there's a pretty clear intonational difference between the spoken forms of "a small black dress" and "a black, small dress" too).

Then you have the totally separate issue of noun-noun compounds like "military jacket", where "military" isn't an adjective at all (your "recipe sketch" is also a noun-noun compound). There's no question of how to order the adjectives in "a short military jacket" because there's only one adjective! Writing "a military, short jacket" is exactly akin to writing "a black, full board" to mean "a full blackboard" (some people are erroneously taught that if there's a space, it can't be a compound, but that's demonstrably false - "military jacket" is as much a compound as "blackboard").

To make matters worse, there are also adjective-noun compounds like "soft drink". So even though you would say "a soft black drink" if you were following normal adjective ordering with the two, it has to be "a black soft drink" because that "soft" is actually part of the compound, not a normal modifying adjective.

In the end, the "cumulative" and "coordinate" thing most people are taught is actually a terrible analysis. "a black dress that is small" and "a dress that is black and small" are synonymous: ∃x[dress'(x) ^ small'(x) ^ black'(x)]. You're tricking yourself into believing that the pragmatic difference that arises from which adjectives you're making predicative in "a black dress that is small" and "a dress that is black and small" corresponds to a pragmatic difference between "a small, black dress" and "a small black dress", but there isn't the same pragmatic convention without the predication - "a small, black dress" doesn't have a conventional meaning distinct from "a small black dress", it's just an unconventional punctuation (though, again, sometimes people use commas in English to just signal "I mean something unconventional" here, so it's not abnormal that you would feel like there's some difference in meaning - there just isn't any convention as to what that difference would be here). The "and" test can thus fail you for a number of reasons.

The actual reason commas end up between adjectives in English isn't that their semantics are somehow "cumulative" or not - it's not anything semantic at all - you get a comma when you have multiple adjectives that belong to the same ordering category such that there's no convention for what order they should go in (this is why "black little dress" sounds weird and "little black dress" sounds fine, whereas "flowery, striped dress" sounds about as good as "striped, flowery dress"). If you really care and you don't want to just trust your intuitions for comma usage with adjectives, you can look up an English grammar (might I recommend Huddleston and Pullum 2002?) and find a list of ordering categories that will be a better guide for you than the "and" test. But most of the time, intuitions are fine and comma usage with adjectives is so variable in practice anyway that, unless you're writing to a specific style manual, there's not much use worrying about it.

Yo're 100% correct on cumulative and ordering - though I've always heard it called the 'royal order' for adjectives. From experience, many people intuitively know which is correct usage and when people do struggle, trying to explain cumulative vs coordinating and ordering usually works far worse than using 'and, switch.'

But then, I often forget this is Achaea, where most of the players are a far higher caliber than most other places I'm used to.

 A small correction - military is an adjective in use there, not a noun. Recipe is a good example, though, for what you were describing - noun adjuncts. Race horse is the most common one I see.

Tael

Trevize said:

 A small correction - military is an adjective in use there, not a noun. Recipe is a good example, though, for what you were describing - noun adjuncts. Race horse is the most common one I see.

Huh, I definitely have a compound "military jacket". The intonation pretty clearly marks it as a compound. That could very plausibly be a dialectal thing though. And I suppose it could plausibly be an adjective-noun compound.

I've also never heard the term "noun adjunct", is that a traditional English grammar term? I've never come across it in any syntax or morphology paper or any formal grammar that I can think of - I assume it just means something like "the modifier in a noun-noun compound"?

I've also never heard of the "royal order" - is there some particular reason it's called that? Some sort of mnemonic or something? (It's also mildly horrifying that googling the "royal order" has a number of sources listing determiners as adjectives.)

Trevize

Tael said:

Trevize said:

 A small correction - military is an adjective in use there, not a noun. Recipe is a good example, though, for what you were describing - noun adjuncts. Race horse is the most common one I see.

Huh, I definitely have a compound "military jacket". The intonation pretty clearly marks it as a compound. That could very plausibly be a dialectal thing though. And I suppose it could plausibly be an adjective-noun compound.

I've also never heard the term "noun adjunct", is that a traditional English grammar term? I've never come across it in any syntax or morphology paper or any formal grammar that I can think of - I assume it just means something like "the modifier in a noun-noun compound"?

I've also never heard of the "royal order" - is there some particular reason it's called that? Some sort of mnemonic or something? (It's also mildly horrifying that googling the "royal order" has a number of sources listing determiners as adjectives.)

Military: just going off my dictionary showing adjective. Thinking it over, It's possibly been added in that capcity due to widespread use as a noun adjunct

As for noun adjunct, dunno where I first heard it, was ages ago. We're just using different words for the same concept - that a noun is being used as as a cumulative adjective/noun-noun om (there's no doubt dozens of ways to put that too!) Example though: http://english.stackexchange.com/tags/noun-adjuncts/info

I'll admit I like the phrasing noun-noun compound. Definitely explains it better.

Royal order could just be a local thing, I don't have a lot of people I can discuss English with in depth.

English having several words and phrases to describe the same parts of English is fitting, come to think of it!

Now that this poor thread has been thoroughly derailed...


Not that there's much on-topic to discuss! I haven't seen a single hot/cold thing happen since the changes to make it more lenient.

Tornadoes, please. Then we can start this thread up again.

Jacen

I'm getting so confused because the cold/lack of heat discussion isn't happening in this thread...

Trevize

Jacen said:

I'm getting so confused because the cold/lack of heat discussion isn't happening in this thread...

We're waiting on something interesting to happen with the weather.

Achimrst

I am neither hot nor cold
Warmth  : dressed normally 

Sarathai

Silver cascade.
Sunset falls upon the arid landscape, the reddish light filtering across the horizon. Leaping out from the glistening, black rocky cliff edge many tens of feet overhead, an immense waterfall crashes into this dark, deep pool. Clouds of thick, pale white mist obscure vision in all directions, dripping from the vibrant green leaves and wide, soft petals of the exotic flowers draping the jagged rock face bordering the silver cascade. Extending northward to be devoured by the jungle's subtropical depths, the stream trickles away beneath interlocking shelves of exposed rock and the twisted arches of crownwood tree roots. A kelp plant waves in the currents. A long, thin segment of weathered marble lies face-down here.
You see a single exit leading up.

Beads of sweat drip down your face, blurring your vision.

| Warmth  : under-dressed

You remove a man's white silk shirt.

Beads of sweat drip down your face, blurring your vision.

The argent radiance of the moon seeps into the sky, waking the stars as darkness descends over the land.

Beads of sweat drip down your face, blurring your vision.

The heat beats relentlessly against you, straining your movements.

You stagger slightly as the heat bows your head, desperate for a cool breeze.

<forecast>

The air temperature around you is measured at 115 F.
The apparent temperature is at a steady 115 F.
The relative humidity is at 0%.
The winds around you blow to the east at 14 mph.

<look me>

<stuff>
He is wearing:
   a pair of smartly tailored men's trousers, sturdy brown leather sandals, and a sword-shaped ring.
Misc:
   wings of shifting mist and a brooch of Thoth.

I'm sitting under a waterfall. I'm bare-chested and wearing nothing but pants and sandals, plus a pair of wings made of mist. I am practically doing the zen monk thing. It's also night and I'm supposedly under-dressed. If I take anything else off I'll be down to literally sandals. There is a breeze blowing as well, and the mist should be at least relatively cool-ish. Apparently not.

It seems like it's been nothing but a massive Achaea heat wave for a while now. The middle of winter in Eleusis is also at 95 degrees with 0% humidity.