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Why is this still a thing?

AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/fe40b0c1

Now, I screwed up because I have several forms of hard hinder I could've used between the impaleslash and Atalkez mangling my legs, but Shaman is likely the exception here, most classes simply aren't capable of hindering within that period of time. Furthermore, most classes don't even have the option of using an attack with a low enough balance to prevent prone impale whenever Blademaster feels like it.

This seems like a basically inescapable death for a class with one of the quickest prep in the game, why is this a thing?
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Comments

  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841 @ - Epic Achaean
    You shouldn't have continued to fight when you realized your legs were prepped. His prep goes away in minutes, yours doesn't.

    Run off, let them reset, continue the fight.

  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,343 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't see any rebounding in there. It won't save you, but it will slow his prep down if you are smart about letting it stay up. I am having trouble thinking of a class that cannot stop his kill strat, at least for a few seconds, to preapply. 
    Exelethril
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mmm, looks legit to me.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Nylian
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2015
    I clearly had a few options I didn't use there, the most obvious being vodun bind. There's a few other classes that can manage that with active hinder: Occultists and Jesters, although Occultists is a maybe since they may or may not regain balance before the BM writhes out of hangedman. Non-2h knights, Sylvans, Apostate, Magi, Serpent and probably others also don't have any realistic option here, unless they have prep to blow which could save them in the ~1 second between standing and the prep being blown.

    That's a big if, considering how quickly BM preps compared to most classes. It's even worse when you consider that stopping BM from mangling the legs doesn't prevent them trying again immediately after these classes use a balance longer than 1.5 seconds, which is pretty much as soon as those classes start trying to have any kind of offense.

    I think the biggest problem here is the ability for Blademasters to prone impale without using prep, the other method of using paralysis to obtain pre-impaleslash seems fine, as it's relatively easy to prevent that from happening while the BM maintains hamstring, and it doesn't mean even attempting trying to kill Blademasters means you risk dying to this.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Plenty of options for every class. Nearly all classes have some sort of passive way to hinder as well. You just got rekt because you didn't use your skillset wisely. 

    Nothing imbalanced there.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Nylian
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,343 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Magi is full of hinder against Bm. No magi should ever lose to him.  Apostate and serpent are both momentum based so they should already have some hinder going. I don't know knight or sylvan well enough to comment.  

    Again: pre-apply.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2015
    Pre-apply won't solve that Austere, because he still has more than enough time to impale and bladetwist twice while you're prone.

    Serpent and Apostate having momentum going is a big if, considering he can leave at any time, come back in and do this on their first or second attack before they have a chance to get any hinder going.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,343 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    You also had two sips while prone, only one of which being mana.

    Edit: Stop adding to your argument with edit.  Damn.  Apostate has a mana regain ability.  Is it usable prone?  Serpent? Who cares. They deserve death anyway (though if it was me, I would snap (cause panic in some) and start slinging illusions(can you even prone illusion? Who knows!)
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    One more sip would not have been enough to clot 200 more bleeding than he needs to brokenstar.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,343 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    One more sip would not have been enough to clot 200 more bleeding than he needs to brokenstar.
    Pre-apply = less bladetwist.  Sip mana > health if you're prone = more clot and greater chance to be standing to hinder before bstar.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2015
    Pre-apply would not have reduced the number of bladetwists in that log. Pre-apply would've allowed me to escape after a third bladetwist, but even with one mangle on the impale he would've had time for the two bladetwists into brokenstar.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Two bladetwists is not enough to brokenstar.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Elowin
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    You also had two sips while prone, only one of which being mana.

    Edit: Stop adding to your argument with edit.  Damn.  Apostate has a mana regain ability.  Is it usable prone?  Serpent? Who cares. They deserve death anyway (though if it was me, I would snap (cause panic in some) and start slinging illusions(can you even prone illusion? Who knows!)
    It is. 20% mana regain for 1.5% essence used. Takes about 3 to 3.2 seconds of EQ with a diadem (not quick-witted though, I'm nimble).
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    Austere
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Likely not viable then, considering it will buy time for more bladetwists and possibly a second impale.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    Likely not viable then, considering it will buy time for more bladetwists and possibly a second impale.
    I'm not sure what you're looking at for "viability" here.

    Are you wanting to be able to take an Impaleslash and four bladetwists and not die? Buy Robes of the Magi.

    Otherwise, that's like bitching that letting a SnB Runie break your torso>leg and one shot you with a disembowel is somehow a mechanical issue.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2015
    Me dying to pre-impaleslash isn't the problem, the problem is Blademaster being able to obtain pre-impaleslash off of any remotely long balance and how getting out of that is not realistic for most classes.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It is escapable. You stand before I have balance back 100% of the time.

    You let me hamstring, time my pommel/prone perfectly, impale perfectly and slash perfectly.

    Hamstring was going to drop in 1 second after you stood up. Any type of slowing me down would have given you the ability to run away with no issue. You couldn't get away because you still had hamstring. 

    Anyone who reacts and does something perfectly, is going to win. That's how combat works. You messed up, you died because of it. I'm not sure what you're missing here. You had skills to use, and you didn't use them. You attempted to leave instead of hinder me enough to allow you to leave, and it backfired.

    Entirely escapable. That death was your fault 100%.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What's the balance time on fashion? How long between balance recovery/standing and the leg breaks?
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2015
    Being unable to attack anytime you use hamstring for fear of dying to that is not balanced, especially considering you can re-apply that timer at anytime. For any momentum class, this essentially means that once they are prepped they either need to have considerable hinder on you by the time you hamstring (extremely difficult considering how quickly it can be applied and how easy it is for you to leave room), or simply stop their offense to avoid dying.

    I really don't see any realistic argument for the ability for Blademasters to get an impale off on someone else using balance still being in the game, considering how it can very easily lead to nearly inescapable situations for a large amount of classes, based only on them attempting any kind of offense.
  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841 @ - Epic Achaean


    I'm not sure what you're actually arguing about here any more.

    If you want to have a "Delete Blademasters" thread, I'd say let's just go ahead and move this over to Rants.

  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Balance time on fashion is 1.8 seconds, balance time between the prone and impale looks to be 1.1, which means realistically with decent timing this can be done whenever any class uses any offensive ability outside of a few corner cases.

    There were 1.2 seconds between stand the leg breaks according to my timestamps.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    What's the balance time on fashion? How long between balance recovery/standing and the leg breaks?
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/b00545cd

    From the log his balance was 1.4-1.5 if you account for latency.

    He stood at 54:36.95 in my log, I legslash/proned at 54:38.28 -- so essentially a little over one second before I got balance back and sent my alias.

    I hamstring at 54:30.28 - which means hamstring was .75 or so seconds away from dropping. If he had used bind on standing, he would have gotten away 100%.

    Use your abilities wisely before complaining about game mechanics. 


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,297 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Could've tumbled off the break, could have tarnel/vodun bound when you stood up, could have tether-projected (you do always have projection tethered/bound, RIGHT??). Pre-impaleslash sucks nuts when it happens, but it will happen against any BM worth their salt as it's sort of an unofficial prereq to a brokenstar.

    You're basically playing with seconds when in the middle of a high lethality sequence like that. I'd probably die there too, BM is ridiculously lethal in melee since it's what they were chiefly made for, especially if you just sit there and let him double prep uncontested by spamming fashions. Get you some teraile attunement swiftcurse in your life, stack some ginseng and put the pressure on HIM. If you let him go full offense uncontested, he will win every single time. It's just how BM do. If you're not padding those fashions with some actual offense, you're going to get shit on.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Slain: Amranu
     Players: 135
      [   135] Amranu

     Denizens: 0

     By: 94
      [    94] Amranu

    Gotta pad these stats.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    People telling me that I could've escaped that clearly have reading comprehension issues, I stated that in my original post.

    The problem is many classes do not have the options available to them to prevent this. Tumble is perhaps the best in this scenario, but it's also extremely risky as well, and could be easily countered by Atalkez ending his impale before you tumble out and re-applying the impale before you get balance back from tumble to stand.
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    hrm not sure if the point got skewed but....

    BM pommel/prone into impale is like the ultimate momentum stopper.  Don't care about it for the pre-impale slash, but it's probably a problem for anyone that's primary attack is longer than pommel balance + .2 sec or so.

    Mounting turns it into 3 strikes, hammy, dismount, then prone, but if they keep hamstring up, pretty much guarantees it as an option at any point in time.

    Ez fix:  don't let hamstring refresh the hamstring timer.

    Not sure it's a big enough issue to change though.  People just generally don't see mounting as a required defense these days.


    image
    ExelethrilKasa
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Atalkez : What's your Exelethril stats?

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lol at anyone trying to justify this log. Whatever you can argue Amranu could have done in this situation can be countered by Atalkez doing a smarter execution.

    Blademaster having refreshable hamstring to permanently prevent mounting and walking, into 100% success rate of pre impaleslash by proning after the opponent uses any ability in their skillset, into a setup that is unavoidable if you go through it while under the effects of impaleslash = unfun, unbalanced kit with little to no counterplay.

    I still don't get why they can recover balance before the target writhes off impale without any legs being broken.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Jovolo said:
    Lol at anyone trying to justify this log. Whatever you can argue Amranu could have done in this situation can be countered by Atalkez doing a smarter execution.

    Blademaster having refreshable hamstring to permanently prevent mounting and walking, into 100% success rate of pre impaleslash by proning after the opponent uses any ability in their skillset, into a setup that is unavoidable if you go through it while under the effects of impaleslash = unfun, unbalanced kit with little to no counterplay.

    I still don't get why they can recover balance before the target writhes off impale without any legs being broken.
    SnB can do it as well.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
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