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rapiers, weapons, et al.

KalvonKalvon
edited October 2012 in The Matsuhama Arena
Is the variance in forged weapons an enjoyable feature for the game? Should we balance combat around amazing weapons? There is no doubt that this randomness is a gambling feature that, combined with a hammer of forging and time, can end up being a very profitable venture for those who undertake it.

If it is an issue, how do we address it? Would static weapon stats improve or worsen the quality of combat? How can we keep Phaestus happy?

Also feel free to discuss Salik's rapiers here.
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Comments

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    edited October 2012

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    ..1.1s later ..

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

     

     

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • GaraoGarao
    Tecton: We've got plans for a full audit and rework of weapons in the post-trait world, so these aspects should be addressed

    Whatever that means.

  • NellaundraNellaundra
    I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to any weaponized combat (Blademaster/Monk ho!) but I'd suggest a bit more of a 'baseline' for weapons?  Hammer of Forging would increase it or make the randomness factor a bit more positive, but altogether you shouldn't NEED to sit there and forge for two weeks and burn through three hundred thousand gold to get a set of combat-ready rapiers.

    Feel free to spear the hell out of this if I'm wrong/mis-informed/idiotic/whatever.  Like I said, weaponry is not a very familiar topic with me.
    image
  • SalikSalik
    Nellaundra, that is nothing, I've forged around 60k rapiers, that is without smelting in 27300000 gold, gold and in forging time around 90 days of played time. So that small amount your talking about and that small amount of time is nothing and if you want combat-ready rapiers you talk about 235+ speed? Cause those I get a few every week.
  • TvistorTvistor
    Oh my god that sounds boring. I can only assume you remain entertained by autoforging playing Achaea from atop your horses whilst galloping through some form of battlefield.
  • KalvonKalvon
    There is no question that there will always be individuals who enjoy gambling for amazing rapiers and even more who don't but are willing to fork out even more money by paying the gamblers. I believe the market for quality forged goods is lucrative enough to sustain and profit forgers, so taking that away removes diversity in Achaean economy and that wouldn't be a good idea.

    On the other hand, combat has always been about speed. This places an unbalanced bias towards the fastest forged weapon useable by the classes which depend on them for combat. Offering alternatives is sketchy because in the world of pvp, 2nd best is not viable. An alternative for rapiers needs to be viable without obsoleting them.
  • SynbiosSynbios
    Mishgul said:

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    ..1.1s later ..

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

    Salik viciously jabs an ornate steel rapier into you.

    A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

     

     


    Obviously, that's just above-average, definitely not exceptional. 

  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    When you get to 10 paralysis the mercy rule kicks in and you explode.
    image
  • VaehlVaehl
    paralyses*
  • ExelethrilExelethril
    Salik said:
    Nellaundra, that is nothing, I've forged around 60k rapiers, that is without smelting in 27300000 gold, gold and in forging time around 90 days of played time. So that small amount your talking about and that small amount of time is nothing and if you want combat-ready rapiers you talk about 235+ speed? Cause those I get a few every week.
    Are you sure about that number, Salik? As a heads up, that's 4550 credits.

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  • SenaSena
    edited October 2012
    Exelethril said:
    Salik said:
    Nellaundra, that is nothing, I've forged around 60k rapiers, that is without smelting in 27300000 gold, gold and in forging time around 90 days of played time. So that small amount your talking about and that small amount of time is nothing and if you want combat-ready rapiers you talk about 235+ speed? Cause those I get a few every week.
    Are you sure about that number, Salik? As a heads up, that's 4550 credits.
    That's 91 gold per steel, which sounds about right.

    Although smelting gives back 2/5 of the cost.
  • SalikSalik

    yeah I know, but then add that you smelt rapiers for 2 steel per and reforge so it's allot less, then add in all credits I've spent on steel, all rapiers I've sold for over 100-300 credits per to just buy steel with. Add in every gold I earned IG going towards steel. so I know how much that is

  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    static weapons would be pretty bad.  Look how unuseable a level 1 rapier is.

    Blackened rapier            83      182     209     350 credits

    Paladins and Infernals can't stack anything with that speed against rebounding.  
    image
  • PeakPeak
    no one gives a shit; close thread
  • SynbiosSynbios
    Tirac said:
    Kids these days.

    Back in my day, Bulvai was RSLing for 40% of my max health through old putrefaction (45% cutting resist) and Slok was one-shotting me with a double hugalaz on Logosian battleaxes. This was real DSL damage. I spent the majority of every fight with these guys at hovering between 200 health and whatever my sip/moss/vigour added, and praying hugalaz didn't trigger. Health in yellow was a sigh of relief, green was unheard of.

    That being said, I have nothing to contribute to the topic.




    I remember an old quote from the old forums, paraphrased: "How to win: Go troll, get double hugalaz axes, tape down F1 key, win in Achaea."

  • AradorArador
    The other way was:
    1. Go Troll
    2. Go Monk
    3.Go Ashura
    4. AXK
    5. Win

    There is a Sapience Today issue that has all these Achaean cheat codes in them.

    On topic, the randomness is actually a complete screwup. Because of it Forging is not really profitable and also because of it, hideously overpowered weapons can emerge. Now while you should be rewarded for spending 4600 credits on forging godly rapiers, I think the short term solution would be to hard cap the speed stat on rapiers. Say 240. That would include the speed rune. So if you rune a 230 you would get 240, but if you rune a 235, you would still get a 240.

    However if you forge a 245, you get a 245. So if you want to spend half your childhood and enough gold to buy Ashtan you can have weapons over 240. Runes just won't end up making them even more insane.

  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    both forged and artefact weapons are outdated.  Most artefact weapons are useless, especially the level 1s and 2s.  And you can forge comparable (even superior in some cases) ones given enough time.  If they standardized all forged weapons to the level 2 weapons then added the equivalent of knuckles/band/collar/dirks for knights then it would make sense.
    image
  • TreyTrey
    Tirac said:
    Kids these days.

    Back in my day, Bulvai was RSLing for 40% of my max health through old putrefaction (45% cutting resist) and Slok was one-shotting me with a double hugalaz on Logosian battleaxes. This was real DSL damage. I spent the majority of every fight with these guys at hovering between 200 health and whatever my sip/moss/vigour added, and praying hugalaz didn't trigger. Health in yellow was a sigh of relief, green was unheard of.

    That being said, I have nothing to contribute to the topic.


    Unrelated, back in the day I sold Bulvai a 243 speed rapier, along with a 212 damage battleaxe.




    .....please don't HDF me.

  • TvistorTvistor
    Trey is like Achaea's version of Stark Industries.
  • RangorRangor
    Trey, Peak, Salik, [list of other forgers] must all suffer from the same disorders.


    image
  • SalikSalik
    What? I don't got a disorder.... I am perfectly normal, I got tons of people who can vouch for that, all are inside of my head, but still tons.
  • MizikMizik
    This whole topic is a waste of time. You're burning down a forest to prevent kittens from being stuck in trees.

    Remember that weaponry across the board has remained the same, and suddenly problems arose. Standardizing weaponry across the board fails to address the problem that was created alongside the Trait system. Previously, our fastest knights had the balancing factor of having 10/11 strength as base.

    With the Trait system, our fastest knights received +5 and +6 strength (Rajamala/Mhun) at no loss (and yes, our strongest Knights received +2 balance +1/2 str (Troll/Xoran)). Consider the value of Logosian Gauntlets. Compare.

    Downgrading weapons across the boar for all classes is a large, unnecessary overcorrection. No other classes have weaponry output issues.

    The problem now becomes Chivalry, its base damage, particularly the strength modifier. This is how you minimize collateral: you identify the problem and target it directly.
    image
  • MizikMizik
    Also: Fury
    image
  • ChryenthChryenth
    Mizik said:
    This whole topic is a waste of time. You're burning down a forest to prevent kittens from being stuck in trees.




    This sounds like an incredibly Mhaldorian solution.
    I am the description ninja.

  • KalvonKalvon
    edited October 2012
    @Mizik your argument would be valid except we're (or maybe just me) talking about speed not damage. The increase in damage from traits as you've explained is largely counteracted by the elimination of sip penalties and higher base health across the board.


    Edit: yes, speed plays a part in damage let's not be pedantic

    Edit2: I will address your other points later
  • SalikSalik
    People do not complain about my speed much but the high damage on my rapiers with that speed Kalvon, so I think it's about the damage with that speed.
  • KalvonKalvon
    @Salik I know I mentioned your name at the start of this thread but that was tongue in cheek. My intention was never about specifics but to pick the minds of Achaeans to find a solution or perhaps a comprehensive rebuttal to the topic at hand. Now we know that the admin have already planned for an overhaul of weaponry in general, and I hope they have a good representation of the current situation via this thread from which to make their decisions.
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