The Renaissance

Aodfionn

Okay. Can we come to some sort of consensus through thoughtful discourse, here? I'm finding myself unreasonably annoyed that there seem to be such wildly different views on this from solid RPers in various cities. I know @Jukilian has mentioned that it's a breach of OOC, while @Tael recently wrote up what I thought was a really thoughtful reason as to why the Renaissance was appropriate to mention IC.

So. What do you think? How should this be viewed IG, in your opinion?

Klendathu

Whereas the term "renaissance" is OOC, the process itself is something that could be discovered IG - there's been enough cities now that have had the re-org that information about it would have filtered through the populace.

Shirszae

I think at this point it really just depends on the exact way you mention it. I mean, two cities have done with the old ways and embraced a new one, both within relatively scarce years from each other. You can argue your character is noticing a pattern and expects other cities to follow suit.

More realistically, though, the problem is that people take the announcements board as if it was not blatantly ooc, when it is meant to be taken as such. Also, people kept mentioning it icly until it sort of became an awkward mesh of in-character and out-of-character information, but it is so widespread that at this point just pretending you don't know what the hell the person is talking about is ineffective at best

Sarathai

I see no problem with saying IG that there is a renaissance sweeping through the cities. Yes, in some cases it's taking decades for particular cities to reach it, and the cause differs from city to city, but it is happening.

Atalkez

I think you shouldn't make a mountain out of an anthill here. Come up with a reasonable RP for you to tell your newbies and go with it.

We all know this is a game that is going to change, no one should be locked into something.

Mishgul

For each city, what happens to the old houses to create new ones is completely different. Obviously things have happened, and it makes sense to use the process of deductive reasoning to assume that things may continue to happen where it hasn't because modernisation and keeping up with modern philosophies is an important aspect to any civilisation, especially when rival cities are adapting and changing to try and "become better".

How I tried to pass it off in Mhaldor was that "Targossas have changed their structure to try and keep ahead of us in terms of structure and how they can grow and expand, and we must do one better." You don't need to get complicated with your reasoning and when people asked too many questions i could always default to "Sartan said so."

But this is one of those situations where we treat IC far too much like we treat OOC. Having meta information is fine if it makes the game easier to play. Refer to it as the renaissance. No one will die, no ones immersion will be destroyed. If people ask where you got the information from it's easy to say that you've heard the term passed around. There's no reason to be coy or stuck up unless you are purposefully playing a character that is coy or stuck up.

Jurixe

In an ideal world, it would be completely OOC and characters would just go about their lives until THE EVENT occurred that saw their Houses needing to be revamped. I imagine this is how it was originally planned, or at least that was the case in Mhaldor.

However, I guess it wasn't explicitly stated or people just don't care or whatever and the Renaissance is now assumed to be an IG thing, for better or for worse. Stubbornly trying to pretend you have no idea what the other party is talking about when they bring it up is a bit pointless when it will affect the way they RP in general anyway, so you can't really just shut it out until it happens. It's also natural that people might want to talk about impending changes, as people are naturally curious and/or worried about what these changes that they know are coming will mean for them.

Now that 4 out of the 6 cities have had their Renaissance, perhaps a middle ground approach as suggested by @Sarathai is the best solution. Leaders of these cities can simply say that they have observed the positive change in the cities that have taken the brave step to revamp their organisations, and in keeping with the times, they must change as well. Or something like that.

Instead of referring to the Renaissance with a capital R as though it was a singular event, take it as a natural cultural change instead, so renaissance without the capital R. Or, much like the Dark Ages are capitals, the Renaissance can simply be used to refer to this time period where all cities decided it was time to shed the old and embrace the new. This way, it makes RP-sense and doesn't break immersion while still allowing concerned people to have their say and discuss it without these arguments about IC vs OOC.

Jukilian

Klendathu said:

Whereas the term "renaissance" is OOC, the process itself is something that could be discovered IG - there's been enough cities now that have had the re-org that information about it would have filtered through the populace.

Ding. Spot on for my thoughts.

Never mention the word renaissance to me in character.

In an IC sense, the definition of the word Renaissance does not in any way fit the situation. How is the loss of centuries old Houses with rich histories a "Renaissance"? In an OOC way it can make sense.

But it is perfectly reasonable in game for your character to see that each city, for different reasons, has had the same outcome. Same outcome, different paths. Logic could then follow to think "Wait, what if that happens to MY city??"

If someone IC says things like "How are the new houses coming along?" "When is the renaissance coming?" "I'm looking forward to the renaissance" "I'm not going to bother doing anything for my House because the renaissance is coming"...

...I will prepare my pitchfork.

OOC is fine, though. Like on the forums.

Sarathai

Jukilian said:

In an IC sense, the definition of the word Renaissance does not in any way fit the situation. How is the loss of centuries old Houses with rich histories a "Renaissance"?

"Renaissance, n.; (lowercase) a renewal of life, vigor, interest, etc.; rebirth; revival: e.g. a moral renaissance."

Yanked off Dictionary.com just now. It's certainly not the only reason, but there's definitely tones of rebirth/revival/whatever where it's happening. It's not all from one singular cause, as each city has their own, but there are definitely events happening the cities, and these events are causing changes that lead to a renaissance for the Houses of that city.

Which is, I suppose, just a roundabout way of saying that there are ways that the word will fit the situation. Saying "the Renaissance" might be OOC-ish, but "a renaissance" doesn't have to be.

Aerek

Echo'ing the above. "Renaissance" is a word in the English language that means a thing, and that thing is happening IC, so it's a perfectly legitimate way to reference the political and structural upheavals that the cities have been experiencing. I considered it OOC until Cyrene's hit, but once it had actually started taking place, and especially now that 4 of the 6 cities have gone through it, it makes sense to acknowledge the trend, and even expect or advocate it, as characters.

Are there classless, OOC ways to talk about it? Sure, you shouldn't say things like "I wish the Renaissance would get here" or "When we get our new houses", but there are classless, OOC ways to talk about anything IC, like being an "old soul" or how much you like/dislike the recent "world event". That's got nothing to do with the Renaissance, and everything to do with people being disappointing.

Jukilian

This isn't revival. This isn't rebirth.

Centuries-old Houses are being destroyed. They're not being reborn. They're being completely replaced. I'd like to see how you can explain that as being a revival in-game to anyone who was invested deeply into their Houses.

If anything, the Guild to House transition could be called a renaissance, as that is much more of a revival or rebirth. This is the actual destruction of Houses, not remaking them.

OOCly I can see it as a revival/rebirth. But not in-character.

Sarathai

Jukilian said:

This isn't revival. This isn't rebirth.

Centuries-old Houses are being destroyed. They're not being reborn. They're being completely replaced. I'd like to see how you can explain that as being a revival in-game to anyone who was invested deeply into their Houses.

It's a revival/rebirth of city culture, tying Houses closer to cities. You can argue that it isn't a renaissance for the Houses, but it is a renaissance for the cities themselves, at least to my mind.

Jukilian

In-character, no. Out-of-character, yes.

Aerek

I'm not sure you understand the actual Renaissance, then. You know, the end of the old medieval political atmosphere and stratified social structure and the emergence of a new, modern era of cultural evolution and social dynamics?

It's not about Houses being reborn, it's about Achaea being reborn. The old, dysfunctional House system being dropped in favour of a new, modern approach to sectioning the cities into functional organizations.

That's a renaissance.

Tael

To reiterate what I said before, this is exactly a renaissance and it makes perfect sense to call it that or even to call it the Renaissance.

First, "renaissance" is a generic term that describes precisely what is going on - a clear and substantial reorganisation of the socioeconomic structure in related ways across many diverse geographic and philosophical areas. What is happening in-game right now is a quintessential example of a renaissance (and is certainly in-line with the historical, real-life, proper-known Renaissance, as @Aerek describes).

Insisting that there's something wrong with calling it a renaissance at all is flatly wrong. Calling that OOC is akin to saying that we shouldn't use the word "lingerie" in-game because its origin is OOC and its etymology is similarly French (to say nothing of the staggering amount of bare, non-loanword French already present in the game). The word "renaissance" certainly exists in the Achaean language, just like any other common noun.

Second, "Renaissance" the proper noun makes perfect sense too. Is it the same Renaissance? Of course not. In fact, insisting that characters shouldn't call it the Renaissance because that's a real-life thing is doing exactly the opposite of what the intention here seems to be - rather than avoiding an OOC reference, you are avoiding saying something that makes perfect sense ICly because it has an OOC referent, even though your character shouldn't know about that referent and should have no reason to avoid proper-nouning this "Renaissance".

So the common noun "renaissance" is be perfectly acceptable ICly, and there hasn't been a proper-noun Renaissance before now in Achaea, so the proper-noun Renaissance is wide open to be applied to something. Why would people in the world of Achaea avoid marking this particularly salient renaissance as their proper-noun Renaissance? The current situation is precisely the sort that lead to people coining a new proper noun from a common noun.

I feel like a lot of this thread, and the previous comments that spawned it, is the result of people who haven't thought very deeply about how people in the world of Achaea would actually use language and are, somewhat ironically, ending up supporting a decidedly OOC notion of IC language usage. I understand that it's tempting to say "the Renaissance is an OOC thing so you shouldn't use that term", but think a bit more deeply and it's pretty clear that the reasoning here is flawed - it isn't the word Renaissance that is OOC, but the real-life referent of that word. You should not refer to the real-life Renaissance in-game. There is, however, nothing wrong with using the term "Renaissance" to refer to something else in the world of Achaea - in fact it's very linguistically plausible that inhabitants of Achaea would do so. If anything, refusing to do so is letting your OOC knowledge determine your IC behaviour, which is precisely what it sounds like people are trying to avoid.

Additionally, I really, truly, honestly do not understand why people think the "ideal" scenario would be to pretend that none of this is happening in-game and avoid having words for it or talking about it. That's an OOC (non)reaction to it. As far as the people of the world are concerned, huge organisational shifts have been sweeping across the world, with clear parallels between them. Why on earth would you think that the best way to maintain consistent RP would be to treat this as a retcon rather than a historical event?

Vayne

I think people are hung up on the fact that this was announced ahead of time and OOC. Not only that but it was given a label by the admins: The Renaissance. Since initially it was a totally OOC affair, people had an aversion to using the prepackaged title for it, while others were still confused as to whether this was some IG decree of the Garden or supposed to be an "organic process". 

Yet, at some point after several cities have undergone similar but unique changes, it becomes logical that a ripple effect might occur, and a pattern might be recognized and labeled in game as some sort of cultural paradigm shift...or renaissance. As @Tael pointed out, I find it humourous that some will not use the word "renaissance" still because it is not a real word in Achaea, like we do not use any number of loanwords in "Achaean" in the first place, not to mention that we communicate in English while RPing that we are not speaking English.

Sybilla

(Arguably) Incorrect to say IC:

"Hey, when's the Renaissance coming?"

"Have you had your talks about the Renaissance?"

"The Renaissance will delete the old Houses."

etc.

The above makes "The Renaissance"(TM) sound like a circus rolling into town like it's a trade name, and it feels (to me) incredibly stilted and metagamey to refer/allude to what is essentially a mechanic. Akin to "guys when are we going to enter the Feudal Age? We built a Mill and a Mining camp and we stocked 500 food already" in Age of Empires.


(Arguably) Better to say IC:

"A renaissance appears to be sweeping through Achaea, I wonder what these changes will mean for us."

"Mhaldor has undergone a renaissance of sorts... Those bloody wankers, we'll show them!"

"We ought to prepare for our own cultural renaissance, and think of ways we can rejuvenate our organisations."

etc.

This sounds more organic, like something you would be more likely to read a character say in a novel. What would <beloved, well-written fantasy character> do, in this chapter of the story? Talk like that, and it sounds less ooc.

Orzaansyn

I agree with @Sybilla. To be a bloody wanker is arguably better ICly.

And sound smore organic.

Aoghinius

Since soon after Cyrene's Ren I've been asked IC such things as what our plans are for our Houses, whether we're going to get rid of them, what we'll replace them with, etc.. From my character's perspective, the idea that we were suddenly simply "getting rid" of things was ridiculous, that there were plans to destroy the Houses (or even the city), and the implication that we had any idea what they were talking about, reeked of some funky conspiracy theory.

I agree that now there is a pattern to be noticed, and a conversation could be had on what these changes for others may mean for our city, and the sweeping changes have been widely enough referred to as a renaissance that it should really be understood what people are talking about when using that word, especially within the cities that have already gone through it. (Though the meaning should come more from what has happened, than from what we expect due to reading announce posts or forums.)

I'd care less about the usage of the word than about the foreknowledge the questions require coming out of thin air.

Jukilian

99% of all usage of the word renaissance in reference to "the Renaissance" in-game so far that I have experienced have been entirely with OOC connotations or referencing directly the announce post. Being blatantly OOC. This includes whole news posts talking about it.

I know OOCly that this is a Renaissance. That doesn't mean I will acknowledge or accept that it is a Renaissance in-character.

Edit: moral of the story, if you're going to talk about it in character, keep it in character. Do not reference the news post or ask when it is happening etc. People doing that is where my issue lies, personally.

Tael

Jukilian said:

99% of all usage of the word renaissance in reference to "the Renaissance" in-game so far that I have experienced have been entirely with OOC connotations or referencing directly the announce post. Being blatantly OOC. This includes whole news posts talking about it.

I know OOCly that this is a Renaissance. That doesn't mean I will acknowledge or accept that it is a Renaissance in-character.

Edit: moral of the story, if you're going to talk about it in character, keep it in character. Do not reference the news post or ask when it is happening etc. People doing that is where my issue lies, personally.

I think you're right that a lot of people are referencing the posts, but someone saying "when will the Renaissance come to Hashan" makes perfect sense ICly too - big changes have swept across the world and it would be pretty unsurprising for people to wonder if the winds of change weren't going to reach their city eventually too. If you see most of the world significantly reforming their basic social organisations, in parallel ways, it seems ICly sensible to ask "Are we going to see the same reforms? It seems inevitable - I wonder when that's going to happen." or to say "I know the Regents have seen the changes sweeping across the city-states, we need to keep up with the times! When are we going to see similar reforms?".

All of that makes perfect sense ICly. There are people discussing it in a way that's OOC, and that's not cool, but refusing to acknowledge or accept this as a Renaissance in-character is like refusing to acknowledge or accept an animal as a dog in-character because sometimes people talk about their OOC pets.

Jukilian

Uh. It's called RP. That's why my character won't really acknowledge it or want it to happen.

I hardly see anything wrong with my character not wanting to call these happenings a Renaissance.

Jacen

Jukilian said:

Uh. It's called RP. That's why my character won't really acknowledge it or want it to happen.

I hardly see anything wrong with my character not wanting to call these happenings a Renaissance.

You're still letting your OOC knowledge affect your IC response, just in the opposite way than usually gets discussed.

I always find it interesting that people can be so adamant about some IC/OOC information transferral, but things like classleads and bugfixes and the new bashing system and the new talisman market and the pebble portal moving and the blademaster/alchemist tutor change among hordes of other ANNOUNCE posts migrate ICly without any resistance or second thought.

Jukilian

OOC knowledge always affects IC stuff, whether people like it or not or even realize it.

Though I'd like to hear how the OOC knowledge affects my IC response.

Whereas with the things you've mentioned regarding announce posts - things like that have an immediate and observable change in-game that anyone could find out. But announcing the Renaissance was not like that at all.

Tael

Jukilian said:

Though I'd like to hear how the OOC knowledge affects my IC response.

I'm not really sure what to tell you. A number of people have explained it, at length. You just seem not to want to hear it because you just don't like the term having originated OOCly. That's fine and you're right that OOC knowledge always affects IC stuff, but it seems pretty clear how this is an instance of your OOC knowledge affecting your IC reaction.

The thing going on in-game is a renaissance, just by the definition of the word. Since it's a particularly salient one, it's perfectly plausible that people would call it the Renaissance - since that proper noun is untaken in the world of Achaea. So when someone does that, a person in the world of Achaea wouldn't be surprised or ignore them or resist their terminology. From an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense, even if OOCly you know it had an OOC origin. The fact that you're allowing your OOC knowledge to dissuade you from accepting what is, ICly, very linguistically plausible, would be OOC knowledge affecting your IC response.

Jukilian

What exactly is my IC reaction that my OOC knowledge is affecting?

I'm not disagreeing at all that what is happening in-game is a renaissance, I don't get why people keep reiterating that. You're not understanding the point I'm putting across here, so I'm not going to bother trying to explain my behaviour any further.