New Gold Sinks

Nim

Sarapis said:

I love collectible card games (am a casual Heartstone addict), and even started a company four years ago to build a CCG after getting hooked on the WoW CCG, which was the predecessor to Hearthstone. (They used a bunch of the same art for Hearthstone, though simplified the ruleset some.)  For irrelevant reasons, I shut it down before we even got to alpha.

I'll say this: Building what I'd consider a 'real' CCG - ie something engaging in its own right (has real depth and longevity) and not just a soon-to-be-boring minigame - is a much larger project than you probably think from looking at it. It's well beyond the realm of feasible for creating in Achaea.

That's the brilliance of Triple Triad.

The traditional CCG emphasizes rule exceptions per card to maximize strategy, complexity, metagame, etc. to increase the value of each card.

Triple Triad, on the other hand, has basically the same rules for every card. Each card is just a set of statistics that alter its tactical usefulness in a very normalized way.

The latter would be... not easy per se, but definitely feasible, since most of the work would be creating the actual items. It'd still be a lot of work, but it would be linear effort rather than require careful balancing with each new card. Yes, giving a card max stats will always be unbalancing, and you'd need some balancing effort, but you could easily just use a cheat sheet for that, assign cards internal values that correspond with their actual in-game rarity or difficulty to obtain based on their overall stats, etc. without needing to balance it against a horde of perhaps thousands of existing cards.

Sarapis

Interesting. I'm not familiar with Triple Triad. Will have to check it out.

The CCG I and some others were developing 4 years ago started with that premise: Saving a lot of money and time by developing a very standard and limited scope for what cards can do. Unfortunately, the game ended up being boring as a result, with few interesting non-obvious strategies, and we couldn't afford to expand into building out a more full-fleshed CCG. 

Nim

I won't say Triple Triad has the same depth as the typical CCG. It's not meant to - it's a minigame within a larger game.

It adds depth to that larger game, of course, much like having chess or freeze tag currently do to Achaea.

But chess and freeze tag are not exactly gold sinks right now.

Sarapis

Checked it out. I've read the rules and seen the game played, but it doesn't seem very compelling as a CCG. Maybe I'm missing something though.

• The design space for cards is very small, which makes it easy to implement, pretty easy to have decent NPC A.I. for, and suitable for a mini-game within another game as a result (for other readers, it was a minigame in one of the Final Fantasies).

• Unlike in most CCGs, the cards are highly unbalanced by design. The difference between a level 1 and level 10 card is giant and objective, whereas in games like Magic or Hearthstone, the difference between common and ultra rare cards that cost the same to play is typically much less and using them to full effect on depends on having other cards that work with it in your deck.
  
  
• As a result of the two factors above, isn't someone who has put together a deck of higher level cards going to win most of the time against someone with a deck of lower level cards? Figuring out somewhat optimal play strategy turn-to-turn doesn't seem that hard, so it seems like it's mainly about the cards in your deck.
  
  
• So it feels like the collectible factor is not that big because there's not a whole lot of reason to go after a wide range of cards - you really just want cards that are higher level.

Now I only checked out the basic game, not the elemental version. I gather the elemental version tries to extend the basic game by assigning an elemental type to a card though, and then squares on the battlefield can give a bonus to cards of a particular element type though, which doesn't really add any depth, but does give you the potential to create elemental versions of every card type if you wanted.

I guess I don't see it as very compelling to collect long-term, particularly given that there'd be no art (obviously) in an Achaea version, and not a lot of room for expansion of the game either.

With the lack of art in any CCG within Achaea, and the complexity of PvP that Achaea players appreciate, plus the need for the game itself to accommodate effectively endless new card development, I don't think anything barring a game approaching Heartstone's level would be that interesting to people long-term.

On the other hand, Triple Triad is so basic that cloning it in Achaea wouldn't be too hard, aside from figuring out the display issue. Just not sure it'd be worth it given the million other things we could be spending that time on.

Cooper

Sarapis, Triple Triad was a mini game in Final Fantasy 8. You started off with a few lesser cards, and the people in the starting area also had weaker cards. You got stronger cards gradually throughout the game. It was never meant to be a stand alone game.

It seems someone developed it into an online game. Sort of interesting.

Nim

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend a straight clone or even a clone of the rules with adjustments. It's definitely a JRPG minigame, and therefore builds up just as one would. I just referred to it as an example of a CCG with normalized rules.

I imagine the Achaean equivalent would be more subtle in differences. For example, instead of having cards with stats averaging anywhere from like 3 to 8, you'd probably normalize them a bit more. You might have cards with 5/5/5/5, or cards with 3/3/7/7/, or etc. to give them different tactical worths, while having approximately the same strength.

And then you might limit people to having more difficult to get cards which have maybe a few points above the average - beatable by weaker cards and strong play, but indisputably better enough to justify the rarity. Cheap cards might be a few points below, on the other hand.

As far as image and collectibles go, I think you're vastly underestimating the Achaean playerbase when it comes to collecting things. If the descriptions are half-decent, and the items represent Achaean lore, I think that'd be enough to collect them even without a minigame around it.

Sarapis

Nim said:

. If the descriptions are half-decent, and the items represent Achaean lore, I think that'd be enough to collect them even without a minigame around it.

Stamp collecting basically, in that case, except you'd get the 'stamps' in random packs ala CCGs to create rarity.

I could see that being attractive to some Achaeans, but without something to use the collectibles for it just doesn't feel too satisfying to me. Maybe that could be as simple as some of them being able to be used as statues or items-in-display-cases in your houses though. I shall ponder, as I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by multiple people that CCG-style acquisition of assets could be a great gold drain.

Blujixapug

And then when people are paying 2k credits for a limited edition polychromatic Raclawice's Gambit card, you can delete veils because their income stream will have been supplanted.

Grandue

Blujixapug said:

And then when people are paying 2k credits worth of gold for a limited edition polychromatic Raclawice's Gambit card, you can delete veils because their income stream will have been supplanted.

Ftfy

Sena

Sarapis said:

Nim said:

. If the descriptions are half-decent, and the items represent Achaean lore, I think that'd be enough to collect them even without a minigame around it.

I could see that being attractive to some Achaeans, but without something to use the collectibles for it just doesn't feel too satisfying to me.

Occasional NPC-run tournaments (with NPC competitors to fill it out if necessary) and 1v1 games against NPCs with minigame-ish non-gold prizes should make it a bit better, and doesn't seem too hard to implement if the AI is simple.

You could also make it figures instead of cards (same rules, just a cosmetic change), which would allow for things like more customisation as an additional gold sink and way of keeping interest.

Jurixe

Sarapis said:

Nim said:

. If the descriptions are half-decent, and the items represent Achaean lore, I think that'd be enough to collect them even without a minigame around it.

Stamp collecting basically, in that case, except you'd get the 'stamps' in random packs ala CCGs to create rarity.

I could see that being attractive to some Achaeans, but without something to use the collectibles for it just doesn't feel too satisfying to me. Maybe that could be as simple as some of them being able to be used as statues or items-in-display-cases in your houses though.

Anything that adds (cool) stuff to houses is good with me. It does remind me of talismans, though, unless I'm misunderstanding the concept.

Grandue

Also, legitimate artefacts would be pretty cool. An archeological organization could set up auctions to sell prized pieces of history that they've found, like a few of the polished shields the Horkvals used in the Clash of the Titans or the skull of some other big name from history or a unicorn skull that was dug up and identified as one of the unicorns Proteus led. Or the personal journal that belonged to Belladona in the months leading up to and after she became a vampire. You get the idea. Basically one of a kind (or just a few of a kind) pieces of history that you would normally see in a museum. They could be put in display cases (that could be purchased with gold) and used for rituals and such. Obviously they wouldn't have any magical power or abilities tied to them like the Staff of Nicator, they would purely be for role playing/collecting. 

I have a few items that are historical and they are some of my most prized possession. I know people would be throwing money at bone identified as the big toe of Clementius or the axe that felled the first tree in the building of Hashan. 

Prythe

I've been hoping for Poker forever, but that is much more difficult to program than Blackjack or Roulette.

Sena

We have poker.

Tahquil

Lusternua figurine battles! An initial down payment to buy the figure, the figure decays if not regularly used, you can buy limited use/time items to equip to said figurines.

Aetolia has a rather good system of paying gold for temporary level 1 Arti boon items

Riashain

Sena said:

We have poker.

It's still bugged so as to not really be playable though, no?

Tesha

It's not very usable, because it's factionally tied to Ashtan by being in Thera (ignoring the fact that you're completely vulnerable to being jumped while you're out in Thera), and we can't have it as an option in city casinos currently (I asked for it for Targossas, was a no-go). I made a thread about it and submitted an idea but haven't heard much about it. 

Rangor

Stick it to the little man. Add denizen purchased regents to venoms and elixirs. 10 gp pr, at least 4 needed in each venom and elixir.

40 gold pr vial = good gold sink

Grandue

Rangor said:

Stick it to the little man. Add denizen purchased regents to venoms and elixirs. 10 gp pr, at least 4 needed in each venom and elixir.

40 gold pr vial = good gold sink

The problem with a gold sink like this is that EVERYONE would be affected by it. This would drive the price of venoms and elixirs up, which would also make this a gold sink for novices which defeats the whole purpose. This would not be a gold sink people would willingly put gold into, it would be tax and wouldn't be any different than just decreasing gold drops. 

Seftin

gold for experience.

Synbios

Sarapis said:

I love collectible card games (am a casual Heartstone addict), and even started a company four years ago to build a CCG after getting hooked on the WoW CCG, which was the predecessor to Hearthstone. (They used a bunch of the same art for Hearthstone, though simplified the ruleset some.)  For irrelevant reasons, I shut it down before we even got to alpha.

I'll say this: Building what I'd consider a 'real' CCG - ie something engaging in its own right (has real depth and longevity) and not just a soon-to-be-boring minigame - is a much larger project than you probably think from looking at it. It's well beyond the realm of feasible for creating in Achaea.

Lusternia actually has something similar to an ingame TCG. It's called Ikon Battles(officially called Psychodrama):

-Players form Gestalts(think of them as decks) using Character, Prop, and Scene ikons gathered either through questing or through ikon packages purchased by credits(think booster decks in Magic: The Gathering).
-Players can challenge other people's gestalts in matches that can range from friendly games to matches where the loser gives one of his own 'gestalted' ikons to the winner.
-Oh, and like any TCG, ikons can be traded.

Aktillum

Some simple short term gold sink ideas::

• Humgii racing tickets for gold. Yeah, they're a credit purchase promo, but it'd likely be a decent short-term gold sink if it was opened up to gold betting. Everyone loves to gamble.
  
  
• Short artefact rentals. Sarapis is probably giving me the deathstare from hell through his monitor, but I think if you could rent bashing artefacts for a short time (1 hour) and they were actually a little expensive to rent, people would be sinking all the gold they make from bashing into renting more artefacts. And I can feel Sarapis' laser-like deathstare burning a hole in my soul, so I'll go a step further and say that there should be a limit on how many artefacts you can rent per month, so actually buying and owning artefacts is still the ideal way to go. It'd be limited, of course, to hunting artes like sip rings and con belts and the like. And yes, Rangor would show up to raid your city with a legion of arte-rental clad midbies, but thats just more gold sunk into the system.
  
  
• A subdivision in Delos. Great gold-sink potential there, since plot sales wouldn't go to any city. Delos is practically a mini-city anyways, with player shops and 2 rogue Houses having estates there.

Razzlo

Aktillum said:

Some simple short term gold sink ideas::

• Humgii racing tickets for gold. Yeah, they're a credit purchase promo, but it'd likely be a decent short-term gold sink if it was opened up to gold betting. Everyone loves to gamble.
  
  

I think it would be kinda cool to see them add humgii racing as a city improvement purchase where you can bet gold to win gold. I know it is not much of a sink, but I like the humgii racing. It is funny.

The one in Thera is supposed to be the 'premiere' circuit.

So this would let that one keep it's promoness and IC awesomeness, while letting the sport migrate out to the cities like roulette wheels and blackjack tables can be found in other place. 

Tharvis

for the artefact rental thing, I'd actually move against any combat-related artefacts being put for rent, and more the RP-themed artefacts like dice (though those are pretty cheap as is)

Bluef

Gold for humgii tickets...maybe a special racing season with prizes other than credits too. That'd be awesome.

Aktillum

Tharvis said:

for the artefact rental thing, I'd actually move against any combat-related artefacts being put for rent, and more the RP-themed artefacts like dice (though those are pretty cheap as is)

Yes, I can imagine the line stretching for miles from the rental shop, Merentesh raking gold hand over fist as he sits back smugly and says to each customer "That'll be 10,000 gold, enjoy your ivory dice/top-hat/flower pot for the next hour", the customer skinny and starving from not being able to balance food shopping with their top-hat rental addiction. They would take out loans, mortgage their homes and eventually resort to breaking into their neighbor's home to pawn valuables just so they can rent sweet, sweet ivory dice one last time.

Venomous dripping sarcasm aside (you know I you @Tharvis) I did specify it should be limited to hunting artefacts like sip rings and con belts, which may have dual-purpose for both hunting and PvP, but it definitely wouldn't be level 3 weapons and strength guantlets.

Cooper

I really doubt renting artefacts will be something that will ever be done. It makes no business sense. 

Silas

I would play the piss out of Achaean Triple Triad. I've bought several copies of FF8 just to play that game again.

See also: chocobo racing, etc.

Kresslack

If think if official clans which serve a real, IC purpose as an organization started making use of the Dues option, it would help a lot. I don't know of very many clans which make use it. Maybe it wouldn't be a gold sink, per say, but it would work towards consolidating a good bit of it to be used for things like out of sub plots and the like.

Jacen

That's a tax tho. You want something fun and exciting, like OMG Jimmy got a holographic charizard and I'm gonna offer him 100k for it!!!