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New Gold Sinks
In other threads the topic of credit prices vs. gold drops vs. gold sinks has been brought up. This is a place to flesh that topic out more and offer suggestions. There are differing schools of thought about how to better balance the relationship between these three things and here are some of the biggest concerns raised:
Lowering the IG credit price:
1. This could piss off the players who buy credits with USD solely to sell them IG so that they don't have to bash for gold.
2. This would give power bashers a huge stack of credits because they generate so much gold income through bashing.
Increasing the IG credit price:
1. Further separates those who buy credits IG from those who buy credits with USD.
2. Devalues gold, making bashing/questing for gold less productive in advancing your character.
Lowering the gold drops:
1. Makes gold more valuable, but doesn't necessarily lower the price of credits (as we've experienced thus far) which results in #2 and #3.
2. This makes it more difficult for younger players to keep themselves supplied.
3. This makes it more difficult for newbies to get artifacts (assuming credit prices stay the same)
Increasing the gold drops:
1. Devalues gold. As gold becomes easier and quicker to get, credit prices will rise to accommodate the abundance. (See * at the end)
Lowering gold sinks:
1. The value of gold will plummet and the supply of gold increases.
2. There will be a higher demand for credits as people's purses get fat with gold, driving the IG credit price up.
Increasing gold sinks:
1. The value of gold will go up as people will want more of it.
2. The price of credits will go down as people will want to sell more in order to have gold to invest in gold sinks.
3. Could see an increase in bashing/questing, which could make it difficult to find an area that hasn't been cleared.
4. Could see an increase in USD credit purchases to sell in order to sink gold into something.
I believe that making more gold sinks is the best solution, but I think it has to be done in certain ways.
The long term gold sinks can be frustrating and seem to only work for a little while. People can be hesitant to purchase something they know they'll need to continue to sink gold into as long as they own it. Ships for example, start as an initial gold sink, but after people have gotten tired of sinking gold into something they only want to do every once in a while they'll sell their ship (usually for credits) which counteracts the initial gold sink.
Limited Use Items/Boosts
I suggest making limited use gold sinks, such as the Elixir of Lucky vials and stat boosting things that last x amount of hours, move those items from being SoW items and instead have them cost gold. Paying a denizen to give you a blessing that boosts your health by x% or gives you increased mobility for x days would be something that is available to everyone, would provide benefits to both combatants and bashers, and wouldn't necessarily be reserved for only the "elite" players who can afford them.
Pay To Hunt Areas
Another idea would be a pay-IG-to-play hunting areas. Game reserves or hunting leases that you must pay however many thousand gold in order to be given access to hunt those areas for a limited amount of time. There would need to be a benefit to hunting those areas, such as increased XP or the chance to capture an elusive mount or have your armor splattered with the acid blood of a whatever monster, thus changing the short description of your armor, or being able to collect the fangs/antlers/horns/hides of certain monsters which can be traded in for some other kind of souvenir or ego booster. Or perhaps the reward could be some type of artefact that could only be received by hunting a certain type of monster in the area and slaying it an obscene amount of times (so that the gold paid to hunt the area and the time spend hunting would be equal to spending 500-1,000+ credits on the artefact if it was available for sale in the credit shop) For instance in some jungle area that is terrorized by some deadly monster, you must pay 20,000g to purchase the ceremonial deer/infant/whatever to sacrifice in order to be anointed as a sacred hunter by the jungle villagers. Once anointed you could hunt the monster for the next moon phase, which could allow you to kill the monster however many times. Depending on how efficient you are and how many times you must be re-anointed you would end up spending 2mil on sacrifices and 20-30 hours of hunting and as a result would be crowned a Champion of Whatever by the villagers and given an artifact that would be worth 2mil + 20-30hrs of bashing. This would make it so you actually have to work for this particular set of artifacts and there would be a shitload of gold sunk into it. I would probably further add that there are no gold drops in the area or a decreased drop rate at minimum, so that it is a true gold sink.
Association Dues
Another idea would be to add dues to being a Champion or Assassin. This would sink gold in two ways, first it would suck up gold from the marks themselves. Those marks who just remain marks for the appearance would be weeded out if it cost them a lot of gold to upkeep, which would in turn lower the number of marks. This could also end up raising the price of hiring a mark. If marks had to invest 20k a year to be a mark, they more than likely would charge more for the contracts. Perhaps make it so each contract costs a minimum of 5k gold which gets eaten up by the organization and anything above that gets paid to the assassin/champion.
These could be absolutely terrible ideas or pure works of genious, you can help me flesh out better ideas I'm sure, so lets hear em!
* There have been talks about how there is a price ceiling for credits purchased IG, that they've hovered around 6k for so long and people would be unwilling to spend more. Some have even stated they've decided on a fixed number in their heads and absolutely will not pay any more than that. This is a temporary conviction. If prices suddenly skyrocketed to 10k, people would hold out for a while hoping they would come back down but eventually their bank account would get into the multi-millions and with nothing else of value to spend the gold on eventually they would start purchasing credits. You can either horde an item (gold) that you don't need or trade it for something that you could use, even if it was more expensive than what you paid in the past. History and economic principles do not allow for a ceiling of this nature to exist.
Lowering the IG credit price:
1. This could piss off the players who buy credits with USD solely to sell them IG so that they don't have to bash for gold.
2. This would give power bashers a huge stack of credits because they generate so much gold income through bashing.
Increasing the IG credit price:
1. Further separates those who buy credits IG from those who buy credits with USD.
2. Devalues gold, making bashing/questing for gold less productive in advancing your character.
Lowering the gold drops:
1. Makes gold more valuable, but doesn't necessarily lower the price of credits (as we've experienced thus far) which results in #2 and #3.
2. This makes it more difficult for younger players to keep themselves supplied.
3. This makes it more difficult for newbies to get artifacts (assuming credit prices stay the same)
Increasing the gold drops:
1. Devalues gold. As gold becomes easier and quicker to get, credit prices will rise to accommodate the abundance. (See * at the end)
Lowering gold sinks:
1. The value of gold will plummet and the supply of gold increases.
2. There will be a higher demand for credits as people's purses get fat with gold, driving the IG credit price up.
Increasing gold sinks:
1. The value of gold will go up as people will want more of it.
2. The price of credits will go down as people will want to sell more in order to have gold to invest in gold sinks.
3. Could see an increase in bashing/questing, which could make it difficult to find an area that hasn't been cleared.
4. Could see an increase in USD credit purchases to sell in order to sink gold into something.
I believe that making more gold sinks is the best solution, but I think it has to be done in certain ways.
The long term gold sinks can be frustrating and seem to only work for a little while. People can be hesitant to purchase something they know they'll need to continue to sink gold into as long as they own it. Ships for example, start as an initial gold sink, but after people have gotten tired of sinking gold into something they only want to do every once in a while they'll sell their ship (usually for credits) which counteracts the initial gold sink.
Limited Use Items/Boosts
I suggest making limited use gold sinks, such as the Elixir of Lucky vials and stat boosting things that last x amount of hours, move those items from being SoW items and instead have them cost gold. Paying a denizen to give you a blessing that boosts your health by x% or gives you increased mobility for x days would be something that is available to everyone, would provide benefits to both combatants and bashers, and wouldn't necessarily be reserved for only the "elite" players who can afford them.
Pay To Hunt Areas
Another idea would be a pay-IG-to-play hunting areas. Game reserves or hunting leases that you must pay however many thousand gold in order to be given access to hunt those areas for a limited amount of time. There would need to be a benefit to hunting those areas, such as increased XP or the chance to capture an elusive mount or have your armor splattered with the acid blood of a whatever monster, thus changing the short description of your armor, or being able to collect the fangs/antlers/horns/hides of certain monsters which can be traded in for some other kind of souvenir or ego booster. Or perhaps the reward could be some type of artefact that could only be received by hunting a certain type of monster in the area and slaying it an obscene amount of times (so that the gold paid to hunt the area and the time spend hunting would be equal to spending 500-1,000+ credits on the artefact if it was available for sale in the credit shop) For instance in some jungle area that is terrorized by some deadly monster, you must pay 20,000g to purchase the ceremonial deer/infant/whatever to sacrifice in order to be anointed as a sacred hunter by the jungle villagers. Once anointed you could hunt the monster for the next moon phase, which could allow you to kill the monster however many times. Depending on how efficient you are and how many times you must be re-anointed you would end up spending 2mil on sacrifices and 20-30 hours of hunting and as a result would be crowned a Champion of Whatever by the villagers and given an artifact that would be worth 2mil + 20-30hrs of bashing. This would make it so you actually have to work for this particular set of artifacts and there would be a shitload of gold sunk into it. I would probably further add that there are no gold drops in the area or a decreased drop rate at minimum, so that it is a true gold sink.
Association Dues
Another idea would be to add dues to being a Champion or Assassin. This would sink gold in two ways, first it would suck up gold from the marks themselves. Those marks who just remain marks for the appearance would be weeded out if it cost them a lot of gold to upkeep, which would in turn lower the number of marks. This could also end up raising the price of hiring a mark. If marks had to invest 20k a year to be a mark, they more than likely would charge more for the contracts. Perhaps make it so each contract costs a minimum of 5k gold which gets eaten up by the organization and anything above that gets paid to the assassin/champion.
These could be absolutely terrible ideas or pure works of genious, you can help me flesh out better ideas I'm sure, so lets hear em!
* There have been talks about how there is a price ceiling for credits purchased IG, that they've hovered around 6k for so long and people would be unwilling to spend more. Some have even stated they've decided on a fixed number in their heads and absolutely will not pay any more than that. This is a temporary conviction. If prices suddenly skyrocketed to 10k, people would hold out for a while hoping they would come back down but eventually their bank account would get into the multi-millions and with nothing else of value to spend the gold on eventually they would start purchasing credits. You can either horde an item (gold) that you don't need or trade it for something that you could use, even if it was more expensive than what you paid in the past. History and economic principles do not allow for a ceiling of this nature to exist.
8
Comments
That being said, furniture is only an extension of general customisable things, which people love - see the new armour/weaponry, crafting-related items, so on and so forth. If any area in particular is being looked at for a gold sink, a greater variety of items and range of customisation in my eyes is the way to go.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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The Gauntlet
A team of five must fork over x amount of gold to participate in a gauntlet type team event that could include puzzle solving, fighting strong or many mobs, building something, etc. Think of it like trying to complete an easter egg on Black Ops Zombies where you have to figure things out, communicate, search for things, and time things right as a group all while being chased by aggro mobs that aren't super deadly just very numerous. It would need to be difficult enough that it would require several different classes and people filling different roles and they could compete for time. They could perhaps unlock certain things that would make it easier as they go forward, unlocking more abilities and such.
This could actually be extremely fun if you had to start off with no class abilities/armor/artefacts and after the first few waves of bashing things with weapons you're barely proficient in or newbie kicking things you unlock your class abilities and on wave 10 you unlock your armor and wave 15 the whole team can choose between an armor boost or a damage boost and later waves they keep getting boons as the enemies become more difficult and more numerous to the point where if you are actually able to get to wave 50 you're basically a demigod and if you complete the gauntlet your time gets recorded and you gain a 2 day XP bonus or something similar to a divine favor. Perhaps you get an even bigger reward if your team does it with no artifacts or something.
At the end of the season (which could be 1 RL month to 3 RL months, basically however frequently the Garden wants to change up the Gauntlet so that it remains interesting and balanced even if you've run it 50 times before), the team with the fastest score or highest wave level wins some other kind of reward.
I just think of the re-playability of Zombies on CoD and imagine it would function similarly here.
Isn't that already a fairly big gold sink though? Do you think people would spend more than they currently are right now if more items and customizations were available? For example, if I'm going to furnish a room with a bookshelf, I'm going to buy a bookshelf whether it is a choice between 3 bookshelves or 30 bookshelves, just because there are more to choose from doesn't mean I'm going to buy a higher quantity of bookshelves, I may buy a more expensive one if it were offered and I loved it, but probably wouldn't spend 500,000 more on one bookshelf just because it has a better description than one that costs 20,000.
Or were you suggesting that there be more types of furniture, like vases and sliding doors and windows and fireplaces and such? If this were the case I think there could be some merit to this idea. I can see players spending 200,000+ in order to have a fireplace that opens up to reveal a secret room when they pull a certain book on the bookshelf or push a torch hanging on the wall, or have traps in their homes that shoot poison darts at those who don't say the magic word.
I think there's a huge problem with the introduction of crafting skills that make things people need but used to only be able to get from Rurin. Ink is a thing that everybody reasonably needs and it's important for Rurin to have monopolies if you want gold to continue leaving the players' purses. Compared to cooking, denizen food is still vastly superior to crafted food, so buying from a crafting cook is simply for the RP, but denizen food can both last longer and be more filling for a lower price/effort. Rurin's ink, on the other hand, is in no way superior to player-manufactured ink, which has zero gold sink associated with it. One obvious way to hand monopolies back to Rurin is to take skills that manufacture things everybody needs without costing any gold at all away from the players and putting the production of those items solely in Rurin's hands. Such skills include gathering, synthesis, harvesting, and inkmilling. The skills wouldn't need to be wholly taken away from players, since I'm confident that would incite a riot, but Rurin could at least sell primes in the case of synthesis, and similarly, drying cloths could be re-introduced for the preparation of herbs.
Gold costs for all trade skills:
Weaponsmithing, Armoursmithing, Conjuration, and Augmentation already cost commodities.
Tailoring and Jewellery cost both commodities and crafting fees.
Cooking costs crafting fees and ingredients produced by other players.
Remedies, Toxicology, and Inkmilling cost in reagents produced by other players.
Gathering, Harvesting, and Synthesis are pure production and cost nothing.
- Require the use of protective gloves in order to gather/harvest/extract. The cleaver and gloves each have a number of uses before they break and must be replaced. Maybe 100 gold for 100 uses. Gloves of harvesting/extraction would have to count as protective gloves but not break.
- Give Rurin a contract with Moghedu so he can sell primes, or have the alchemists in each city sell primes, to those who would rather pay than extract. In order to remain competitive with harvesting, primes would have to cost about 3-5 gold per (cures tend to go for 5-10 gold per). In most cases, 2 primes = 5 minerals, but some of them take up to 4 primes.
Other things that changed without being equalised:The reason I'm pointing out things that cost nothing to produce, or things that cost far less than I remember, is that my character's costs in achaea are practically null at this point.
I carry 1/4 of the vials I used to, have artefact pipes so pipes/tinderbox are out, the commodities for my own armour and clothing are more than covered by my satchel, I don't need to eat, I don't often pay crew wages because they don't need to be fanatical to sit in a harbour, which, let's be honest, is exactly what most ships are being used for, and don't need to buy ink or dust for tattoos and remedies because gathering/inkmilling.
My only anticipated costs are shop taxes(23.5k/achaean year), a small number of vials(5k/achaean decade), a small number of sigils (let's say 2k/achaean decade), commodities for trade skills to stock shops(varies!), and the occasional pot to boil in (50gp/achaean decade). Additional but unnecessary costs are related to crafting submissions, for fun. If not for those things, I'd probably never spend gold on anything but credits and those elusive auctions.
Features that are free but could reasonably cost gold:
I think one of the things we need to avoid doing is essentially taxing the necessities. Raising prices on commodities, vials, sigils, food, etc. Adding a production cost to turning herbs into concoctions or anything similar is just going to make it feel like an even bigger grind and not really help with the price of credits. At that point people are spending a higher percentage of what they make bashing on just keeping their character afloat with the necessities which means less can go toward credits.
Instead of raising the price of gas or bread, add an amusement park that people WANT to spend money on.
Houses are nifty, but I don't know that I'll use one outside of my cabin expansion because I tend to spend most time on a ship or in the orchard in Cyrene when I'm not doing stuff.
I like @Grandue's gauntlet idea, I'd definitely go for that if it involved some non-combat things occasionally (puzzle solving, etc.). Honestly more out-of-arena games would be neat - something like pub trivia could be a cool addition to the casino games. That wouldn't necessarily have to be a gold sink though.
Buy cards. Trade them. Form decks, and card-battle other players. Collect rare crystal cards. Like Hearthstone or whatever. I actually anticipate this causing a gold defecit. There may be too little gold left in the economy after implementation and inevitable wild success of such a thing. Those still willing to go out and bash and quest for gold, with the phenomenal willpower necessary to hold at bay their card-duel addiction, will be a precious elite.
1 million gold each
OK, so I guess that is basically Sarapis or Tecton pimping out the Pools. I'd still be game.
The reason why I don't generally have furniture is because the customisation options for them just don't make them worth it right now - though it's neat that you can choose your own options in terms of material, shape and such, the phrasing is awkward and just not really nice overall to shell out 50-80k for. With the advent of the posing system, you can now just 'pretend' you have furniture too. However, the reason why furniture would still be popular is because most people don't really go to that much effort, and there have been certain functional improvements made to furniture over the last few years (LIE ON, SAY TO SEATED etc) which cannot be replicated with simple poses and emotes.
People will and do spend a lot just to get that 'perfect' description - a wood bookshelf may hold the same number of tomes as a crystal bookcase, but I have known people and organisations to shell out that 2 million gold price difference just for the different theme.
In general, people will pay through the nose for customised crafted things such as clothes, jewellery, food and what have you. The new forging is already proof of that. Imagine now if you added in drinkmaking, woodworking, paintings, leatherworking, all that kind of stuff - that's where my gold would go, anyway. However, with how the crafting system works now, there probably simply isn't enough admin time to oversee and approve all designs like these and so, unfortunately, it's probably going to remain a pipe dream for now.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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"Oh my god you lost 20 million gold!"
"I DON'T CARE I GOT MY LITTLE PONY!"
The card game thing I like. I love card minigames in other games. Triple Triad probably the best. The Xenosaga I was good, too.
Seriously, if you do card games, with booster packs for gold, rarer cards for serious gold in remote shops, gambling for rare cards, that'd be a really deep gold sink for people like me. Then you can do stuff like getting rare cards for difficult feats (honours quests, maybe?), cards you can only find on the sea floor rarely, cards from talismans. Just no cards in the SoW or for credits, because that'd ruin the whole point of it being a gold sink. It needs to just be for gold. Make them transferable/sellable for gold.
Actually, this could become a serious problem for me.
Edit to add/change stuff.
No scarcity, no hard numbers.
Like in the past, the number of harvestable herbs per room was -real-. The max was 60, and you couldn't harvest below 10. Now, everything is randomized and created out of thin air.
Though, I admit, this was probably also not so much a good idea. There was a time when bloodroot/moss/ginseng was 200 gold each. But the over-abundancy isn't what I like to see either.
I believe, that only those who actively search/visit undisturbed areas/are lucky should be the ones rewarded for tradeskills. For the most part, five people can extract primes from Moghedu and walk out with the same amount.
So many supplies, and not enough gets used up.
Sometimes, I wonder how many plants/minerals get "eaten" everyday, as opposed to "generated."
Wish Rurin had monopolies on inks/diamond dust again. I think they were fine gold sinks.
Although I wish inkmilling never existed, I suppose it's too late to complain about that.
I'm just against commodities becoming player harvest-able. Just triple the production of NPC commshops. Increase the base price of commodities by a little in return.
I think a simple introduction of scarcity would be great. Things that need to be hit are... regeants, primes, herbs.
Though these are just theories. I don't have any proof or numbers.
Sometimes, I wonder what it would be like if this happened:
1) If Rurin began selling credits at 5,000 gold each. Unlimited supply. Just like going into a supermarket and buying a bottle of coke. What if CFS was for people who needs gold and the only way to get it is to sell credits cheaper than Rurin?
Though, I'm pretty sure everybody has too much right now, so a change in scarcity won't affect us for a while. If the admins suddenly took away half of everything we all own, maybe the effect will be instant. But that won't be happening.
Some of the ideas are extreme but I'm interested in what other people think.
Or try to kill the troll, depending on immortality or lack thereof.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
I'd love to be able to use furnishings rather than descriptions for most things, but honestly if I'm basically having to buy expensive furnishings and wait on them to decay (instead of having a carpentry/masonry option of repairing) just so I could spend such a ridiculously large amount of gold on them all over again, I'm not going to do it. It's not cost efficient =/
On my part, I for one think that crafting abilities (as in the licences for tailoring/cooking/jewellery making) should be paid for in gold. At the very least so it gives some thin veneer of ICness to what's come to function as a mostly OOC thing given the heavy dependence on admin time to see it working.
However, I do understand that furniture's comparatively long decay times at present don't make it a very efficient or viable gold sink - it's high cost but infrequent, so probably not enough to make as big of a dent in the gold supply as we would need.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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This has been discussed pretty heavily elsewhere so I don't want to derail this thread with the argument of "Is there a problem or isn't there?". This thread is obviously to discuss solutions to the problem (if there is one).
But to give you a context into why there is a belief that things need to be better balanced, I'll explain. I would be pretty confident in saying that one of the goals of the Admin is to grow the player base. They've said before that they aren't really worried about keeping the players they have because the nature of the game already does that efficiently. So since we're not looking at the retention of the established player base and instead the retention of those who are just starting we have to examine the things that would make Achaea look TOO overwhelming and unattractive. It has been pointed out that the high price of credits, especially when it comes to newbie hunting makes it seem unrealistic for a novice to both trans his skills and earn enough gold to buy the artifacts he desires without sinking 5-10 years into the game and thousands of hours grinding away at mobs, or spending thousands of USDs.
Now obviously, telling a novice that he would realistically have to spend $1,000 eventually to get the artifacts he wants, even if it is over the course of a year or so, would likely be a deal breaker. Telling the same thing to someone who is already established, not so much since they see the value of those items compared to the $1,000. For a new player to bash for 2-4 hours and then find out that after replacing the curatives he used he has enough gold left over to buy 1 credit and then notice that the artefact he wants is 300 credits...and that eventually he would like to have 20,000 credits worth of items... people start doing math. If this happens before they REALLY get hooked on the game and make friends and understand the way things work, they'll say, "Yeah, this game is DEFINITELY not free to play...see ya!"
So, we're looking for a way to make credits easier for people to attain in-game without devaluing the credit. By making gold more easily accessible, it would actually raise the credit price which wouldn't really solve the problem. Making credits cheaper through some hardcode mechanic would just devalue the credit. So we need to make gold more valuable so people will want to sell more credits to have gold. The more credits that are for sale, the cheaper they will be, but we need to do this in a way that people will WANT to sell credits to get gold instead of HAVE to sell credits to get gold. If we make it so they HAVE to sell credits to just maintain their character (inks, curatives, production fees, tolls, etc), then it is a tax and everyone will hate it and the novices would have to pay these as well which would leave us in the same place we started. So creating a way that people can CHOOSE to sink gold into willingly because they want the luxury item/entertainment will lower the credit prices while also keeping character maintenance the same while also providing more entertainment/fun/value to players using the gold sink which would increase RL credit sales from established players that would in turn be invested in the gold sink instead of more artifacts.
+---------------------------------+
| ELITE MHUN KEEPER |
+---------------------------------+
| Abilities: charge |
| Mana cost: 6 |
| |
| |
| (attack: 8) (defense:5) |
+---------------------------------+
Edit- cant get formatting right on ipad...but yeah you get it
I'll say this: Building what I'd consider a 'real' CCG - ie something engaging in its own right (has real depth and longevity) and not just a soon-to-be-boring minigame - is a much larger project than you probably think from looking at it. It's well beyond the realm of feasible for creating in Achaea.
The card game would inarguable be a huge gold sink, but just the thought of it makes me laugh. That is some crazy immersive RP right there. It would almost be like creating a RP game our characters can play IG... like imagine Targossas and Ashtan having a conference where they sit at a table and RP miniature raids on the tabletop using little figurines they've "leveled up" and such.
Achaeaception.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
I'd love to see more things for player houses as gold sinks. Plaques that work like shop signs (you can write on them), mirrors that can either show your description or that can be upgraded to give cool custom messages about ethereal and creepy stuff, new housing servants with more expensive and amazing reactions, and, my personal want, the ability to rent pushable Carts for traveling the realm and peddling your wares (like the denizens in Delos have), etc. Current carts are just so...limited, plus they don't last very long. One-time rented carts could do the same thing but be PUSHed in a direction maybe so people could -actively- sell their wares instead of just setting them up and leaving them.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea