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Twoarts Aesthetic suggestion

Trey
Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
Just as a visual preference, it would be kind of neat to allow the scabbard the blademaster is drawing from to be wielded in the off-hand. As a secondary idea, if that is allowed, changing the messages on most of the offensive striking abilities to use the scabbard instead of the hand. Example -

With a smooth lunge to the right, you draw Bestsword Ever from its scabbard and deliver a powerful slash across Tecton's legs.
Sweeping out with your scabbard, you strike at the back of Tecton's knee.

It's kind of stupid and obviously not high priority, but @Synbios drew a blademaster like that once with his sketch of brokenstar and the image stuck with me. Obviously the idea command would be the best venue for this, but I thought I'd get an opinion or two on if anyone would even use it.

Tagged:
NaverreSena[Deleted User]SynbiosShirszaeMetzger
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Comments

  • Naverre
    Naverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    We were supposed to have gotten different DrawSlash messages for each stance like, a year ago. It was confirmed and everything. Good luck trying to get more Blademaster flavor in there.
    TreyJakarana
  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Holding the scabbard with the offhand...maybe; I've always pictured holding the scabbard while drawing and sheathing, but the scabbard still being attached to the hip, like you see in Iaido (and as implied by needing your scabbard to be positioned).
    Striking should use the hands. Fits better with the whole "precise manipulation of pressure points" thing, IMO.
  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Naverre said:
    We were supposed to have gotten different DrawSlash messages for each stance like, a year ago. It was confirmed and everything. Good luck trying to get more Blademaster flavor in there.
    Assuming you're referring to Synbios's classlead, it was "approved for consideration", which is certainly not a definite "it's going to happen". Unless there was more explicit confirmation elsewhere that I missed?
  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:
    Holding the scabbard with the offhand...maybe; I've always pictured holding the scabbard while drawing and sheathing, but the scabbard still being attached to the hip, like you see in Iaido (and as implied by needing your scabbard to be positioned).
    Striking should use the hands. Fits better with the whole "precise manipulation of pressure points" thing, IMO.
    That's why I said 'most' of the offensive abilities. Ankle/foot obviously wouldn't make sense with a scabbard.

  • Naverre
    Naverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Eld said:

    Naverre said:
    We were supposed to have gotten different DrawSlash messages for each stance like, a year ago. It was confirmed and everything. Good luck trying to get more Blademaster flavor in there.
    Assuming you're referring to Synbios's classlead, it was "approved for consideration", which is certainly not a definite "it's going to happen". Unless there was more explicit confirmation elsewhere that I missed?
    I thought I saw somewhere on the forums they said they were going to do it. @Synbios would know for sure.
  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Eld said:
    Holding the scabbard with the offhand...maybe; I've always pictured holding the scabbard while drawing and sheathing, but the scabbard still being attached to the hip, like you see in Iaido (and as implied by needing your scabbard to be positioned).
    Striking should use the hands. Fits better with the whole "precise manipulation of pressure points" thing, IMO.
    That's why I said 'most' of the offensive abilities. Ankle/foot obviously wouldn't make sense with a scabbard.
    And my argument is that most, if not all, work better with the hands, even the ones that seem most plausible for the scabbard (temple, throat, and neck are the only ones that come immediately to mind). Any newbie with a stick can smack you in the temple or the neck and make it hurt. The art comes in not only knowing the subtleties of exactly where, how hard, for how long, etc, but also the skill to strike with just the right part of the hand so that it's not too hard or too soft, to hold just the right amount of rigidity in the fingers, to use just slightly more pressure with this finger than with that one, etc; there's a level of flexibility and nuance that you just can't get out of a scabbard, or any other instrument that's not actually a part of you.
  • Synbios
    Synbios Member Posts: 4,634 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!

    NimTreyEld
  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
    I take it you've never used a tool to assist in leveraging pressure points, have you?

  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Given that you can strike with both of your arms broken, I'm not fully convinced you need hand and arm dexterity specifically.
  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    Given that you can strike with both of your arms broken, I'm not fully convinced you need hand and arm dexterity specifically.
    Didn't know you could, actually, but regardless, I don't think the realism of the mechanics should be much of a consideration in pure flavor discussion, since combat balance and game design will always trump realism in questions of mechanics.

  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Eld said:
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
    I take it you've never used a tool to assist in leveraging pressure points, have you?
    Hey now, no need to bring our personal lives into this. 

    Seriously, though, I could see some cases where a tool would be preferable, but I can't think of many of the strikes as they stand for which that would be the case. Do you have specific ones in mind?

    I'm not trying to be super negative or anything, just laying out why it doesn't really fit with my mental image of the skill, which is clearly not universal. I'm all for improved flavor and such, and appreciate the discussion even if I don't agree with the specific suggestion.
  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    This could be a good aesthetic preference, but I do not think it should replace the standard method of Striking, which uses various forms of open, close, and spearhand delivery. These are what make Striking sensible as an source of afflictions (see: Dim Mak). Having the scabbard always in the offhand also weakens the practical performance of TwoArts, around which Blademasters seem to have been modeled after the art of Shinkendo. If that's the case, this would seem to me to sacrifice sensible functionality for an aesthetic variance, as Shinkendo relies largely on utilizing both hands with the sword (while offering the ability to, briefly, disengage one hand in order to strike your opponent).

    Trey said:
    Eld said:
    Holding the scabbard with the offhand...maybe; I've always pictured holding the scabbard while drawing and sheathing, but the scabbard still being attached to the hip, like you see in Iaido (and as implied by needing your scabbard to be positioned).
    Striking should use the hands. Fits better with the whole "precise manipulation of pressure points" thing, IMO.
    That's why I said 'most' of the offensive abilities. Ankle/foot obviously wouldn't make sense with a scabbard.
    I would argue that lashing out to certain areas, such as the knees, maybe the temple, and maybe even the chin would make a lot of sense. That would require some of a loose scabbard setup, rather than a scabbard affixed to a belt which is then worn on your person. The Japanese would often have a sash-like belt and simply slide their scabbards into that, so something like that would certainly work in some capacity. (I realize I may be stating the obvious here, but indulge me).

    Eld said:
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
    -cough-pommel strike-cough-



  • Eld
    Eld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kresslack said:

    Eld said:
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
    -cough-pommel strike-cough-

    Pommelstrike isn't a striking ability. It's a straightforward "hit them with a hard thing so it hurts" ability, rather than a "do something subtle to a pressure point to cause a specific effect" ability, which is pretty much exactly the contrast I was trying to make; a sword or a scabbard is fine for the former, but the latter (at least usually) requires a more nuanced approach.
  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:

    Seriously, though, I could see some cases where a tool would be preferable, but I can't think of many of the strikes as they stand for which that would be the case. Do you have specific ones in mind?

    I'm not trying to be super negative or anything, just laying out why it doesn't really fit with my mental image of the skill, which is clearly not universal. I'm all for improved flavor and such, and appreciate the discussion even if I don't agree with the specific suggestion.
    Abilities within Striking that make sense to me with the scabbard (not necessarily superior or inferior to the hand, just 'they work':

    Sternum
    Shoulder
    Hands
    Ears
    Nose
    Knees
    Neck
    Kidney
    Eyes
    Temple
    Chin
    Groin
    Chest
    Throat
    Stomach
    Underarm

    Feet obviously requires the use of an open hand, and the others are more or less either obvious or irrelevant (the elemental fists, for example, which are done outside of combos anyhow).


  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    If you sheath the sword again, you could probably throw someone off by their foot using the side of the scabbard.

    And you technically sort of do sheath it again, given that it's not exactly in your hands at the time of performing the strike.
  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    If you sheath the sword again, you could probably throw someone off by their foot using the side of the scabbard.

    And you technically sort of do sheath it again, given that it's not exactly in your hands at the time of performing the strike.
    I don't know. Typically in the saddle you're secure enough that you'd need a good solid hook around the foot to get someone down (by the foot). I definitely concede that that doesn't make too much sense.

    @Eld: A point I'd like to bring up is that just because something doesn't seem like it makes sense doesn't necessarily exclude it from the game (or from being cool-looking!). I'd love for someone to point out any instance of dual flails/morningstars in history, for example.

    Kresslack
  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:
    Kresslack said:

    Eld said:
    Synbios said:
    @Eld: Alternative viewpoint - precise striking with the scabbard(limited to a logical set of pressure points) can be considered a 'higher' level of attainment in striking. The wielder and his weapon have been so attuned through intense training that the scabbard is now as much of an extension of his hand/foot/uvula as his sword. 

    Also, happy to see another person bring up blademaster aesthetic ideas again. Thanks @Trey!
    I did consider that, but the way I envision it, you don't use your scabbard for striking for the same reason you don't use your sword or your ... nose - it's not the appropriate tool for the job. Sure, a true master could probably learn to do some, or most, of it with his scabbard, but he would be making it more difficult in doing so, and there would be no reason to do it that way except to show off. Extension of himself or not, the scabbard will never have the flexibility/adaptability/whatever that the arm and hand do.
    -cough-pommel strike-cough-

    Pommelstrike isn't a striking ability. It's a straightforward "hit them with a hard thing so it hurts" ability, rather than a "do something subtle to a pressure point to cause a specific effect" ability, which is pretty much exactly the contrast I was trying to make; a sword or a scabbard is fine for the former, but the latter (at least usually) requires a more nuanced approach.
    Yes, I know that Pommelstrike isn't a striking ability, which is why I bolded the part of your response which referred to not using the sword for strike. It is, however, a form of a strike which uses the sword, which was my point.


  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sigh...because I missed the edit time, excuse the double-post:
    Trey said:

    Abilities within Striking that make sense to me with the scabbard (not necessarily superior or inferior to the hand, just 'they work':

    Sternum - Spearhand
    Shoulder - Spearhand
    Hands - Rap
    Ears - Blunt Force
    Nose - Blunt Force
    Knees - Spearhand
    Neck - Spearhand/Rap
    Kidney - Spearhand
    Eyes - Spearhand
    Temple - Blunt Force
    Chin - Rap
    Groin - Spearhand
    Chest - Spearhand
    Throat - Spearhand/Rap
    Stomach - Spearhant
    Underarm - Spearhand

    Feet obviously requires the use of an open hand, and the others are more or less either obvious or irrelevant (the elemental fists, for example, which are done outside of combos anyhow).



    I've try to associated each one of those with the Striking version of delivery, in order to compare possible scabbard alternatives for consideration and comparisson:

    - Spearhand would be converted into a jabbing motion using the end of the scabbard.
    - Rap would be a sharp slash using the edge of the scabbard (similar to how it is used in Swashbuckling).
    - Blunt Force would be a more forceful blow, but still using the edge of the scabbard.




    Trey
  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Nim said:
    If you sheath the sword again, you could probably throw someone off by their foot using the side of the scabbard.

    And you technically sort of do sheath it again, given that it's not exactly in your hands at the time of performing the strike.
    I don't know. Typically in the saddle you're secure enough that you'd need a good solid hook around the foot to get someone down (by the foot). I definitely concede that that doesn't make too much sense.
    I didn't mean like, strike someone's foot. I meant hook with the length of the scabbard rather than your hand.

    Admittedly, I don't know how saddles work, so maybe that's what you thought I meant, and I'm just being dumb.
  • Razzlo
    Razzlo Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Maybe Blademasters can get a cool change like knights and have two styles. One with a scabbard in your hands and one wearing it. Perhaps they don't have to be the same skill at all, just separate them to help you do two different things alongside Twoarts? I am not sure about the balancing issues and such, but giving classes more options within their class seems very interesting to me. 
  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    Trey said:
    Nim said:
    If you sheath the sword again, you could probably throw someone off by their foot using the side of the scabbard.

    And you technically sort of do sheath it again, given that it's not exactly in your hands at the time of performing the strike.
    I don't know. Typically in the saddle you're secure enough that you'd need a good solid hook around the foot to get someone down (by the foot). I definitely concede that that doesn't make too much sense.
    I didn't mean like, strike someone's foot. I meant hook with the length of the scabbard rather than your hand.

    Admittedly, I don't know how saddles work, so maybe that's what you thought I meant, and I'm just being dumb.
    As a general tripping ability, that would work, similar to how Sentinels use their spears/tridents, but as for disengaging someone from their saddle this would be largely unsuccessful. Saddles are accompanied by stirrups, in which the feet are placed in order to keep them firmly within the saddle. This would require grabbing the foot to pull it out of the stirrup, and then leveraging the person out of the saddle. The current message for this is a good representation of this, if someone could post it.


  • Synbios
    Synbios Member Posts: 4,634 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Razzlo said:
    Maybe Blademasters can get a cool change like knights and have two styles. One with a scabbard in your hands and one wearing it. Perhaps they don't have to be the same skill at all, just separate them to help you do two different things alongside Twoarts? I am not sure about the balancing issues and such, but giving classes more options within their class seems very interesting to me. 

    Strongly doubt that Blademasters will be considered for a skill split.


  • Katsuragi
    Katsuragi Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Trey said:
    ... @Synbios drew a blademaster like that once with his sketch of brokenstar and the image stuck with me...


    I remember that image! I couldn't find it, though. Could someone post it?
    I have 150 Lusternian credits that I'll trade over for Achaean ones. Let me know if you're interested!
  • Synbios
    Synbios Member Posts: 4,634 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Katsuragi: If I can't find it, I can probably draw and/or find my old sketch/es.

    Katsuragi
  • Jules
    Jules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Kresslack said:
    Nim said:
    Trey said:
    Nim said:
    If you sheath the sword again, you could probably throw someone off by their foot using the side of the scabbard.

    And you technically sort of do sheath it again, given that it's not exactly in your hands at the time of performing the strike.
    I don't know. Typically in the saddle you're secure enough that you'd need a good solid hook around the foot to get someone down (by the foot). I definitely concede that that doesn't make too much sense.
    I didn't mean like, strike someone's foot. I meant hook with the length of the scabbard rather than your hand.

    Admittedly, I don't know how saddles work, so maybe that's what you thought I meant, and I'm just being dumb.
    As a general tripping ability, that would work, similar to how Sentinels use their spears/tridents, but as for disengaging someone from their saddle this would be largely unsuccessful. Saddles are accompanied by stirrups, in which the feet are placed in order to keep them firmly within the saddle. This would require grabbing the foot to pull it out of the stirrup, and then leveraging the person out of the saddle. The current message for this is a good representation of this, if someone could post it.

    Was trying to click on another thread, but the word saddle always catches my attention ;)  The way we use mounts in Achaea is already pretty unrealistic (and they're sooooooo squishy compared to their masters), so really, I think you have artistic license to do almost whatever, as long as it doesn't look too silly.  

    I really wanted to find the scene from Seabiscuit where the horse at Pimlico drags Red (his foot still caught in a stirrup) through the breezeways of the barns.  They did a pretty good job of catching a nightmare every horse person would rather just not think about.  If you can somehow unbalance the rider, and he doesn't kick free of his stirrups (although hopefully he has a good chance of this if they are the right size for him), man is he screwed.  

    A rider against a single person (or small group of people) on foot is going to use at least a bit of speed (although not necessarily a dead gallop), because that's what creates incredible momentum (and power) with a 1000-2000 lb animal vs. puny human on foot.  Then, he's basically going to smoosh you with it (cut you down as he rides by/over you) if he's a heavier knight type, shoot you full of arrows if he's not.  If he's in a confined area, that's not too good for him, and he's a bit vulnerable.  He's more of a guy on a large beast instead of a freight train that can just steamroll you.  If his mount is well trained (which it will be), and he's a good rider (which we assume everyone in Achaea is), he's still got some tricks to maneuver that big animal, but hey, you're a Blademaster, or something, and Achaean combat seems to be balanced around A) dismounting people and B ) mounts that are either incredibly squishy or totally unkillable.  Imagine if people could make caltrops (I hope this doesn't happen, but if it does they should secretly look like Legos).  

    If you were quite good, you might slice their stirrup leathers as they ride by?  But a fair bet these should/would be quite sturdy and substantial (even more sturdy than a western roping saddle and those things are built like tanks - they're also like lifting tanks :( ).  

    So really, whatever people want is probably fine for Achaea.  
  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Was any of that about the OP, Jules?

    Kresslack
  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It was a very long and roundabout way of saying that there's not a whole lot of reason why you couldn't also use your scabbard to strike to dismount, I think.

    As far as the OP goes, it doesn't seem worthwhile if it's more than an absolutely trivial amount of coding work, but it would be interesting to have the extra option.
    TreyJules
  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    It was a very long and roundabout way of saying that there's not a whole lot of reason why you couldn't also use your scabbard to strike to dismount, I think.

    As far as the OP goes, it doesn't seem worthwhile if it's more than an absolutely trivial amount of coding work, but it would be interesting to have the extra option.
    Not sure she even bothered reading what I had just said about saddles and being mounted:

    As a general tripping ability, that would work, similar to how Sentinels use their spears/tridents, but as for disengaging someone from their saddle this would be largely unsuccessful. Saddles are accompanied by stirrups, in which the feet are placed in order to keep them firmly within the saddle. This would require grabbing the foot to pull it out of the stirrup, and then leveraging the person out of the saddle. The current message for this is a good representation of this, if someone could post it.



  • Trey
    Trey Member Posts: 4,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    It was a very long and roundabout way of saying that there's not a whole lot of reason why you couldn't also use your scabbard to strike to dismount, I think.

    As far as the OP goes, it doesn't seem worthwhile if it's more than an absolutely trivial amount of coding work, but it would be interesting to have the extra option.
    100% Agreed. As something that isn't directly contributing to combat balance, I would definitely put this in the category of low priority myself.

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