Impact of OOC clans on immersion

Tesha

I noticed lately, after being a member of two OOC clans for a while, that sometimes it seems like they come at the cost of immersion and roleplay. At first I thought this wasn't really the case because people would still ask questions and things still need to happen in-game sometimes, but over time, I realized that wasn't really what happened. I've noticed lately that when something in-game happens, the first place people react to it is in the OOC clan. "Why did X kill Y?" "What happened to Z?" "lol, this speech is taking too long". Often when something happens, people talk about it OOCly first. When considering fights and raids, people talk about it OOCly first. In-game conversations are secondary. 

I've been curious and just left or turned off OOC clans for a while due to how gossipy and clique-ish they can become, and the amount of in-game conversations that my character has overheard or participated in doesn't really change. People tend to sit in one room and just talk on clans, rarely interacting in-game outside of "events". It's not a personal thing, it's a communal thing. So I got curious about whether this happened all over the game and what other people thought. Obviously right now OOC clans aren't going anywhere, but I wonder what the game would be like without them. Sure, people like having clans to vent in and things like that, but what if instead of venting personal OOC frustration, people vented in-game? I imagine the loss of OOC clans would result in more interaction on every level, but it certainly isn't something that can be forced on the community.

What do other people think? Is this even an issue or are OOC clans healthy for the game?

Aodfionn

I decided to CLTOFF or quit all of my OOC clans yesterday, and the difference in immersion feels immediate and relieving. It really is used as a primary means of communication, which can be cool when we're all trying to figure out what the proper Canon is for something or just check availability to see if someone's gonna be online later. 

The downside of that comes with the countless instances where people threw bitch fits or were sincerely just trolling people to be assholes, because they didn't happen to like what was going on IG at the moment, but lacked the drive to address their concerns ICly. This happens constantly, and is the reason I finally snapped and said "deuces" to the whole thing. If I want to talk with people on an OOC level about shit (like @Havyn‌ and our friendly NFL rivalry), I can do that well enough without having to listen to some mouth-breather complain about the 10 minute break from mudsex they had to take to go defend or listen to a sermon. 

Melodie

I'm definitely at a point where I'm considering making a smaller OOC clan with people I generally enjoy shooting off a bit with (and who are generally more positive and not metagaming/gossiping), and then keeping that and one other (and the other is Aerek's tiny clan) and that's it. TMC, while it has given me many laughs, has gotten to where I tune it out more than enjoy it in recent weeks, and I definitely find myself prone to reacting OOC rather than IC first, which is a bad sign. I haven't quite gotten the motivation to save up 500k for it yet, but I'm getting there quickly.

The only reason I wouldn't 100% quit is because there are people I can't see IC as much who I genuinely enjoy speaking to.

Kayeil

I quit all my OOC clans minus a family clan and the small one I run (unless you want to count Beloved ooc clan, SVO, UUC, Gare, and shamans help clan), and Achaea has been a much more positive and less stressful game to play. My clan is generally just lots of joking around or helping each other out, and the rare rant here and there. Much better than the drama and hate clans that do nothing but gossip and constantly argue.

Kraal

I've noticed the OOC clans certainly hurt my RP, and frequently turn them off. The culture also seems to be to have a lot of insanity in party talks that are aren't focused on a specific task (raid, defense, etc.).  My involvement in both of these seems to come and go. (I find OOC clans amusing when I'm just trying to get a script working, or test and track down The Right Line for something.)

I have also noticed that lots of people talk IC or otherwise in TELLS.  I bucked this for a while, trying to force more public interaction and occasionally still call people out for it.  However, I feel it's like swimming upstream and likely a loosing battle. Those that do it will continue to, it's the culture. 

One thing I'm planning to do to mitigate a better immersion is to separate OOC clan chats to some hidden windows.  This will keep it there when I want it, but doesn't interfere with anything when I want to be fully IC. I know several people do this, and I imagine it's a common approach, but figured I'd mention it anyhow just in case some readers haven't considered it.

Klendathu

I gag all OOC clans in my main window, they're in a tab on in my chat window thingy, it means I can dip in and out depending on what I'm doing, and scroll back easily if there's an interesting topic. Most of it's just drivel, sadly.

Herenicus

If OOC clans are breaking your immersion (assuming that's important to you) turn them off and it gets better immediately. 

A trickier issue is breaking someone else out of the city's AFK/OOC chat room; it depends on the person and their circumstances. They might be designing something, reading/studying, at work, dealing with young children, or a hundred other things that preclude activities requiring constant attention. Instead of evangelising to them as a group, I'd suggest expressing private appreciation for ways individuals contribute or have contributed in-game and explore means of doing more of it more socially.

Nim

Slightly off-topic note to what @Herenicus said, but I'm often idle in stereotypical AFK places. I am almost never actually AFK though, I just play someone quiet and usually content to observe (for various definitions of content depending on what's being observed, Nim's mood, and the number of pixies bashed so far this year).

Tibitha

Hrm im torn on this.

On the one hand ive found it does break immersion during certain events especially. 

On the other im way too curious and I love getting to know the people behind the characters too much to turn them off. (Though it probably affects my impression of characters to some degree)

Feeding them to a seperate window is probably an amazing idea. Now just to find space for it on my UI  

Aerek

While I enjoy getting to know people OOC, I've never liked OOC clans. Especially the big ones, it feels like I start playing a schizophrenic, because suddenly there are these constant voices in my head, distracting me from the serious stuff going on around me. As has been said, I found myself logging in and just sitting for hours bullshitting instead of playing the game. Quitting them or turning them off has always increased my productivity and quality of my roleplay by multiples.

Adet

I'm in one OOC clan, at the moment - and it has one other person in it whom I'd consider to be active.  Since I came back in November, neither of us has said a thing on it - I don't even know whether the other person has CLT on.

Occasionally I miss being able to make a smart-arsed comment when someone says something which amuses me - but if I'm really feeling hilarious and can't contain myself any longer, I tend to send an OOC message to one lucky recipient instead.

I think small OOC clans, where everyone knows each other reasonably well, can be healthy: it reminds us that we're playing a game with other humans.  The difficulty comes with the sprawling, cross-organisation entities that a few people seem to be members of (and whose notoriety means I don't need to try and remember them).

Jules

OOC clans and interactions are great and get too much bad press.  It sounds like TMC and other huge clans that become difficult to police and are probably full of people who can't stand each other are the problem.  

Dracen

Honestly, I've had P9 cltoff'd like, twice in my entire time in it. Mostly, I troll in there while waiting for crap to happen. But, if it bothers you, cltoff/quit the clans. To me, (Maybe this is due to ADD or my MPD) I can handle the swapping without much issue. (Notice I said much)

Eigen

The two worst offenders for breaking immersion, to me, are OOC clans and the forums. I am not in any OOC clans and I try to keep my forum usage to a minimum. I do my best to be IC at all times with people; sometimes I can't, but I try.

I have found the overall experience much more enjoyable and noticeably quieter.

Mathonwy

I feel like there's this trend that's emerged where a reputation for good roleplay, or of being a good roleplayer, sort of gets conflated to participating in a certain attitude or set of beliefs. Probably the two easiest ways to get established as that sort of player are to talk about roleplay like it's this discrete bout or session or close-ended thing and talking about their characters like they're these wholly separate, wholly other entities, worlds unto themselves, and they, as players, are just passengers along for the ride. "I'm not having fun in City X, but I can't leave because that's not what my character would do, and I can't create an alt because I have so much money invested on this character that it's a waste" is a complaint I hear a lot, for instance. People lose sight of the fact that the game is made for the players, not the players for the game-- which, of course, is its own whole point against any sort of sweeping denunciation of OOC clans or consideration (but not the one I set out to make originally, ha).

Another one is sort of a disdain for anything OOC, like immersion is this really fragile thing constantly at risk of being shattered beyond repair. And maybe it is; maybe I'm in the minority in thinking this isn't the case. I really can't say. But every one of my sort of 'emotional highs' or most treasured moments in Achaea has been accompanied by some other form of out-of-character commentary, some avenue to participate in the hype of just how awesome that particular moment is, whether it's the Roads sermon, the Marvinogian, getting Archprelate, @Sothantos's conversion, etc. It becomes a shared experience instead of an isolated one. It's the difference between watching like Snakes on a Plane or Rocky Horror Picture Show in theaters with a bunch of people versus watching it in your living room alone on like TBS.

OOC, and OOC clans, can be a great thing. There are people that I've met through Achaea with whom I've enjoyed playing at various times, but also with whom I'd have no good in-character justification to speak now, and OOC clans let you maintain that connection to these people and to the game. I feel a lot more comfortable when I do have acrimonious interactions with people like @Jarrod or @Halos because I have a lot more freedom to be a vain, arrogant, and all-around self-centered asshole (or other socially detestable stripe of villain) as a character because these people can understand that I don't bear them any ill will on a personal level. And really, whenever I come back from bouts of dormancy, odds are that I can find someone in one of those OOC clans to keep me company while I weather whatever jarring changes have happened in the interim and try to find a familiar face.

Granted, it could just be that I've just been really blessed, but the OOC clans of which I am a part aren't exceptionally spammy or annoying or even negative. With the exception of one, they haven't even really affected my immersion, and that's just because that one clan in particular was so spammy and filled, at various times, with people who just hated each other so bitterly that it sort of became this hybrid between the Ranting Menace and Twitter.

But it's important to recognize that at the end of the day, an OOC clan isn't inherently good or bad. It's a reflection on the other person or group of people as individuals, and and the dynamic these people share. If you're in a clan that's generally good but maybe has its moments, I've found that asking people not to do w/e they're doing via messages usually puts an end to that sort of ass-hattery. If they're super cliquish or negative or hateful or metagamey, then maybe you need to do some housecleaning.

Jarrod

Some OOC clans are definitely 'immersion breaking' if you pay attention to them all the time. Some make the game better because you can talk about game or non-game stuff with people you've made a connection of some kind with while you're doing other things.

Some clans are notorious whiners/loud-mouth PKers who start into each other the second one sees the other say anything.

Others are @Mathonwy and me having a random ass conversation for 30 minutes where the topic changes instantly if someone references it to anything else.

Siduri

Aodfionn said:

I decided to CLTOFF or quit all of my OOC clans yesterday, and the difference in immersion feels immediate and relieving. It really is used as a primary means of communication, which can be cool when we're all trying to figure out what the proper Canon is for something or just check availability to see if someone's gonna be online later. 

The downside of that comes with the countless instances where people threw bitch fits or were sincerely just trolling people to be assholes, because they didn't happen to like what was going on IG at the moment, but lacked the drive to address their concerns ICly. This happens constantly, and is the reason I finally snapped and said "deuces" to the whole thing. If I want to talk with people on an OOC level about shit (like @Havyn‌ and our friendly NFL rivalry), I can do that well enough without having to listen to some mouth-breather complain about the 10 minute break from mudsex they had to take to go defend or listen to a sermon. 

To be fair, that sermon lasted a good 12 minutes.

Siduri

Adet said:

I'm in one OOC clan, at the moment - and it has one other person in it whom I'd consider to be active.  Since I came back in November, neither of us has said a thing on it - I don't even know whether the other person has CLT on.

Occasionally I miss being able to make a smart-arsed comment when someone says something which amuses me - but if I'm really feeling hilarious and can't contain myself any longer, I tend to send an OOC message to one lucky recipient instead.

I think small OOC clans, where everyone knows each other reasonably well, can be healthy: it reminds us that we're playing a game with other humans.  The difficulty comes with the sprawling, cross-organisation entities that a few people seem to be members of (and whose notoriety means I don't need to try and remember them).

I do have CLT on, boy. Let the snarkyness commence.

Kandra

I think that absolute immersion is crippling to actual immersion, at least in my case. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where what you are doing can greatly impact another person's enjoyment of the game in a negative way. Personally, if I'm worried about ruining someone's day, I'm going to have issues going through with it. If I suspect someone is out to ruin my day, I'm going to have issues with wanting to play at all. Simply being able to express or understand where each other are on the "this is fun to omg this sucks" scale can do a lot, and there are tons of RP-relevant things that a person who gives half a damn about others wouldn't be able to do if the question of another's enjoyment crept into their head.

I honestly want to know if people I'm playing with are enjoying or not enjoying, so I'm always open to having an OOC conversation with anyone who approaches me about it, as long as they don't send me tells full of slashes. Pointing out OOC is more startling than the OOC itself in most cases. Just bloody be OOC and I'll figure it out. I usually assume my tells are OOC-acceptable anyway. /minirant

Kinda ranted about tells instead of clans. Oops. I think avenues of OOC are good for some people, even if others don't care for them. That does include clans, even if I ranted on tells.

Kaden

Kandra said:

I think that absolute immersion is crippling to actual immersion, at least in my case. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where what you are doing can greatly impact another person's enjoyment of the game in a negative way. Personally, if I'm worried about ruining someone's day, I'm going to have issues going through with it. If I suspect someone is out to ruin my day, I'm going to have issues with wanting to play at all. Simply being able to express or understand where each other are on the "this is fun to omg this sucks" scale can do a lot, and there are tons of RP-relevant things that a person who gives half a damn about others wouldn't be able to do if the question of another's enjoyment crept into their head.

I honestly want to know if people I'm playing with are enjoying or not enjoying, so I'm always open to having an OOC conversation with anyone who approaches me about it, as long as they don't send me tells full of slashes. Pointing out OOC is more startling than the OOC itself in most cases. Just bloody be OOC and I'll figure it out. I usually assume my tells are OOC-acceptable anyway. /minirant

Kinda ranted about tells instead of clans. Oops. I think avenues of OOC are good for some people, even if others don't care for them. That does include clans, even if I ranted on tells.

Now I want to send you a tell with nothing but slashes the next time I see you ig. :P

Herenicus

Still, must suck to watch the time, energy and enthusiasm your org needs being spent debating the merits of a Marvel reboot and then have to listen to some of the same people complain when their orgs are  struggling.

Caoimhaen

I tried ooc clans and honestly, to me it ruins my ic experience. I like to rp and see what happens in general. Not be distracted about ooc stuff and how hilarious the person thinks this thing is. When I am in the moment, I want to become my character. I agree with you @Tesha. It is irritating when people often pay more attention to ooc clans than ic. I think if you want to talk oocly you should message either or go on Skype. But that's just me. I play to rp. Not to troll or be trolled. Maybe that's fun to some people, but I don't find it fun as I play to get away from real life for a bit. It's like choosing to read a book. You don't want someone constantly interrupting you while you are reading or being forced to read the writer's thoughts about the scene he wrote. I like talking to some people oocly about stuff, but it really depends on if it  is vital or if I like the person oocly. I like to choose when and who and tend to do it rarely.

Kandra

Ahem.

Kaden tells you, "////////////////////////////////."

Say what you want, but the man sees things through.

Mishgul

I have never had any issues with OOC clans ruining my immersion. I can't explain why because I struggle to understand why they would.

Achimrst

OOC clans are the devil.

Join p9 today!

Bluef

My view on this particular subject is probably unique, and while I don't want to seem like a special snowflake, I know that there are others like me who have suffered under the brunt of disdain for our characters so I'm going to share this anyway. 

I've made mistakes on Bluef. Sometimes those mistakes have carried over here and I've not always been the best or most productive member of this online forum community. There ar some things I would do differently if given the chance now, but I stand by all things that Bluef has done IC as an integral part of her character development. 

Moreover, few people know the real story about her past dispute with the Spirit Walkers, the origins of the Curia Spiritus and her role in its inception, why she left the Order of the Moon, and why she left Ashtan so very long ago. What players know about her is that many people don't like her. That she's supposedly trouble. A newbie killer. Eats babies. Etc. and so on.

That perception, fueled by people who apparently have nothing better to do than stifle other people's gameplay, nearly resulted in me quitting Achaea for good. If I tried to bloodline someone, other players swooped in and suggested that Bluef was Slith incarnate. If I tried to join a House, fifty alts who I had never met before came out of the woodwork to suggest how they personally saw me do something terrible. I'd had enough.

Then I met Kaie. He didn't put much stock into what other people said and wanted to figure out who Bluef was for himself. He started P9 and pretty soon, I was meeting people in the game again - but only OOCly. Still, they were seeing for themselves that I wasn't batshit crazy, a raging bitch, or a huge manipulator the way I'd been portrayed by others in certain cliques within the game. 

Eventually, this led to Bluef being given a chance by people again IC. I was invited to join other clans again, then High Clans, and now I'm happy to be a clan leader of Valnurana's pre-Order. In other words, without OOC clans, Bluef would never have been given a second chance.

I'm very thankful because it is far too easy to right off people in Achaea and I may never have found a way back in to roleplay. People who are friendly with others, can stand outside Shallam as the city falls one day and be kneeling at the feet of the opposing God swearing an oath the next. But if you're disliked OOCly, forget about it.

You'll be metagamed to death and never stand a chance at getting that enemy status you received (for being disliked, not for doing a darn thing) turned around. Your chances of joining a city or House aren't limited to who hasn't heard of you; they're limited to who isn't talking to someone OOCly who doesn't like you. 

I understand what the OP in this thread was discussing and I do suppor that to some extent. I'm part of a few OOC clans, P9 being the major one, and so I can understand how such clans might break immersion, particularly if they're clans that cliques within a particular city or House all join. But for me, an OOC clan had the opposite effect.

P9 in general has never ruined my immersion or roleplay, and I think that is due in part to the fact that we don't exist to metagame but to bring people from different walks of Achaean life together for one reason: We're not prejudice or biased; we troll everyone (even ourselves). 

Bluef

Sorry for the typos in the prior post (there were a few - right/write, suppor/support and so on. I guess when I'm passionate about something I don't spellcheck well!

Vithincus

My own experiences with OOC clans has been really a mixed bag. I have enjoyed getting to know some players better through them (@Bluef for one.) While other times it just seems like a cesspool for racism, sexism, rape jokes and just rubbish I don't care to hear. OOC clans have absolutely ruined RP with me before. Not to long ago a shaman was trying to change perceptions in Targossas and after being subjected to his abhorrent behavior in an OOC clan I had no interested in following through with him. The other issue I take with OOC clans is just hearing a lot of conversations on them about issues IG that would have been perfect to just roleplay out.

TL;DR @Bluef I miss nerding out with you about Doctor Who, but being a member of P9 just isn't worth it. 

Rohai

^ That. It's all the hate speech, slurs, etc that makes most OOC clans a bummer, in my opinion. Plenty of that to go around in real life - I don't sign onto Achaea wanting to be reminded of that bull.

Edit to clarify that the above comment is not in reference to P9.

Caladbolg

Ic clans are only for mischans from your ooc clans, and for everything else we use skype.

If ooc clans got removed we would just default to skype..

If you don't wanna be in an ooc clan by all means turn it off or quit. but there's alot of people who don't exactly want to roleplay on that huge major level that Tesha does, I know I roleplay to the least little bit I can except on special occasions.

Now im not knocking anyone's roleplay or any of that. but honestly when there's a huge mandatory speech or something going on I do typically go afk and then ask on the ooc clan/skype what happened.

Also just saying. it's a hell of alot easier saying I went dormant cause xbox one rather than saying. My soul has been sleeping for reasons that involve a box with an x on it.

Rohai said:

^ That. It's all the hate speech, slurs, etc that makes most OOC clans a bummer, in my opinion. Plenty of that to go around in real life - I don't sign onto Achaea wanting to be reminded of that bull.

Edit to clarify that the above comment is not in reference to P9.

Just sayin if you don't want to listen to such things quit the clan or turn it off. If it's not normally like that then ask the clan leader to deal with such things.

P9 Is a little worse on that level than most of my other ooc clans though. Although I personally didn't quit because of hate speech slurs or what not. mostly just Ernam getting old and repetitive.

Herenicus