Chivalry Fury

Addama

Fury (Chivalry) Known: Yes

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Syntax: FURY [ON|OFF]

RELAX FURY

Details:

This will allow you to temporarily raise your strength with 2 points, for no more than a total of 1/4th of each Achaean day. It can be used once a day without cost, but if you turn it off and turn it back on within the same Achaean day, you will incur a cost of 500 willpower each time you turn it back on. Your endurance losses will be significantly higher while Fury is active.

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In effect, you can have Fury up for up to fifteen minutes over the course of an hour.  There's a rather insignificant Willpower cost to turning it off/on, and the Endurance cost is likewise insignificant.

What is pretty awful is that it has a tendency to turn off in the middle of combat, and at that point I can't use it for an hour.  For S&B, who are extremely reliant upon Disembowel to kill, the loss of two strength is the loss of an effective kill sequence (it drops my DSB damage from 80% to 70%, and my killing rend/smash from 30% to ~25%, and drops my overall damage pressure).

If I lose my Fury at any point, that's it, I'm done.  Can't get back out there for an hour.

I always found turning Fury on/off to be a rather frustrating mechanic, but now that it's so vital to my kill sequence, I'm left wondering why there's a time limit on it at all.  You could double the Endurance drain, give it Willpower drain, even some Mana drain, and I'd have to work around that instead of having Fury suddenly drop halfway into my prep.  I don't think that forcing me to take an hour-long break for 15 minutes of viable combat is fair, especially when the Fury timer counts in the Arena.

MY IDEA: Remove the time limit for Fury and replace it with a different penalty, i.e. greater Endurance drain or Mana drain.

Antonius

Not sure another mana drain is really necessary/appropriate for dual cutting who still have mastery, and I think an endurance drain would be pretty meaningless as a penalty in a lot of cases. I only use Fury for disembowel - turning it on when I successfully impale and turning it off when I disembowel, they writhe free or tumble off. I have the advantage of having a ton of strength (19 before defences), admittedly, but I'm not convinced you need to be using Fury during your prep at all, especially as a Runewarden with the now increased disembowel damage from Lagua meaning you need less pre-damage.

That said, Knights are either balanced while having Fury up or they're not (hint: they are balanced with Fury). Plenty of fights don't last as long as 15 minutes, either. Could probably do away with the time restriction entirely and call it good.

Cooper

Don't leave fury on for the whole fight.

Aepas

pretty sure you can turn it on for the disembowel, then turn it back off when your done. That takes like 9 seconds of your 15 minutes.

Avto

Never had problem with it in fights, in bashing forgetting to turn fury off after a round of DK's and losing fury just before you move to another set of strong mobs has always been disheartening. So I guess I am in support of this idea, but not of great importance.

Aerek

In practice, I do agree with Cooper and Antonius; I just toggle Fury on/off when needed and do fine, but it is fair to say that if you forget to toggle it off, (I leave it on after a successful DSB to help spike out a wounded opponent.) you do end up unable to kill anyone serious for an hour. Very few other classes have that kind of logistical concern, Essence/Karma being the only example I can really think of, and I'm not sure that Fury, itself, needs the same kind of gating mechanism that those entire skills do.

So while I think Fury's unusual limitation is perfectly manageable as-is, I think it's fair to ask the question of whether it's actually needed.

Cooper

It's not about what it adds, it's about what it restricts. They didn't want knights running around with +2 more strength than they already had, but wanted knights to be able to burst a little bit more for a short period of time.

Besides, if you're fighting one opponent for 15 minutes you should probably just walk away from the fight anyway.

Dji

With diminishing returns, +2 strength isn't what it used to be. With jera and logosians I don't even bother turning it on.

Making it a willpower/mana drain toggle or something without a limited duration would be a help to non-artied knights without really overpowering anyone. 

Seems like a good idea to me personally.

Arador

Two hander could also benefit a lot since they desperately need that damage pressure in order to stack at their best.

Currently if you manage it smartly it is probably always going to be there when you need it most and while that is an argument for leaving it as it is, it also shows that it does not break the game when it is on.

The way damage scales, artied guys get that little bit extra at the top, and the unartied little guys get a nice bonus from it.

2h: Need it along the way to stack better.

DualBlunt: Need it if people avoid pulp to maximise predamage before that assault.

SnB: If you want torso damage on your DSB then realistically you are going to have to prep two legs along with the torso so that mean 1.5 minutes prep time. If you want to leave out torso and try with one leg you need to predamage like mad and every drop counts.

DualCutting: Needs it the least probably out of all of them since torso damage DSB's are easiest for you, hence lower predamage required.

Iakimen

Haven't tried the spec but thought torso disembowel was still mechanically possible for SnB with a one leg/torso prep. Even if they parry torso, what's wrong with ex. shieldstrike low/slice torso/smash whatever, slice leg/trip, impale/club/fury?

Addama

Iakimen said:

Haven't tried the spec but thought torso disembowel was still mechanically possible for SnB with a one leg/torso prep. Even if they parry torso, what's wrong with ex. shieldstrike low/slice torso/smash whatever, slice leg/trip, impale/club/fury?

S&B is pretty much an exception; the damage they do, even with 22 Strength, L3 longsword and SoA, doesn't really count so much as "damage pressure."  The S&B thread describes a method of breaking torso right before the impale with the victim already prone and on leg resto balance, so if you trigger Fury to turn on at that point, you're good as gold.

For Two Hander, damage pressure is huge though, and you'll want Fury on the whole time.

Jovolo

Cooper said:

It's not about what it adds, it's about what it restricts. They didn't want knights running around with +2 more strength than they already had, but wanted knights to be able to burst a little bit more for a short period of time.

Besides, if you're fighting one opponent for 15 minutes you should probably just walk away from the fight anyway.

This is pretty much my view. The point of the limitation is that it restricts a permanent +2 addition, forcing you to use it sparingly and when you actually need it. That you might forget to turn it off isn't a mechanical concern, it's a player error.

Antonius

Sword and shield probably has the best disembowel options of the four specs. With a level three longsword/buckler combination, I think it might just about be possible to do something like leg/trip, torso/smash, impale/club so they have no chance to avoid a huge damage disembowel by tracking torso damage (unless they delay curing the leg).

Arador

Torso tracking was my worry, yes. It should technically be possible with level 3 longsword and buckler but it will be damn damn close. But here we are talking a level 3 artefact. Artied people will technically have the least to gain from permanent fury, whereas smaller guys who go con spec to be able to survive, they will be helped a lot by this. 

The point for me is that old knight, like dual cutting now, did not really NEED this. The new specs though, this could really help with some of the shortcomings.

Addama

Antonius said:

Sword and shield probably has the best disembowel options of the four specs. With a level three longsword/buckler combination, I think it might just about be possible to do something like leg/trip, torso/smash, impale/club so they have no chance to avoid a huge damage disembowel by tracking torso damage (unless they delay curing the leg).

Even if they prio torso, the torso slice (w/slike and smash high) happens with the victim off restoration balance.  Unless they also drop anorexia below torso/legs, this guarantees that you'll land the impale/stun before they're on restoration balance from the first leg.  Even if they did apply restoration to torso one second after the impale lands, their torso wouldn't be cured in time for the DSB to go through.

It's fairly foolproof.

Arador

You could also:

Prep leg and torso 
Shield strike high / slice leg anorexia / trip 
Slice torso / smash
Impale / club 
DSB

The strike high and anorexia delays the leg apply enough to give you more room to get the impale in on time. 

Edit: I type slowly on a phone so got kinda ninja'd. 

Is not fool proof, I can see a reasonably simple counter, just parry the prepped leg and count torso so you can shield on torso break. 

Still it is a decent start. 

Antonius

It feels like we're talking about two entirely separate things here, but:

If you try to do torso break, leg break/trip, impale/club then they're on restoration balance to apply to torso IF they know that their torso is broken.

If you try to do leg break/trip, torso break, impale/club then they can ignore the leg break (i.e. stay on salve balance), apply to torso (again, if they know that it's broken), and potentially survive the disembowel that would have otherwise killed them. Slice/smash + impale balance is far longer than a restoration application.

Addama

Arador said:

You could also:

Prep leg and torso 
Shield strike high / slice leg anorexia / trip 
Slice torso / smash
Impale / club 
DSB

The strike high and anorexia delays the leg apply enough to give you more room to get the impale in on time. 

Without a two-leg setup, they'll just writhe off the impale.  They'll have cured the leg (stunning doesn't stop the leg from curing if resto has already applied).  Also they'll just focus off the anorexia and immediately apply restoration to the leg.  That's why you have to smash high when you apply slike (and also already have the victim off apply balance).

Arador

I'm stunning right as I break the leg, so they can not apply. Antonius has the other possible counter if they break leg first. 

Addama

Arador said:

I'm stunning right as I break the leg, so they can not apply. Antonius has the other possible counter if they break leg first. 

Okay, so you stun as you break the leg, so they'll apply restoration to leg 1 second later, you'll be back on balance 1.2 seconds after that.  You slice torso/smash, they're 3.4 seconds into restoration balance by the time you impale.  By the time they get off stun they've already finished restoration balance (restoration balance doesn't stop counting if you're stunned; it only prevents application).  I feel like this provides only a very limited window for the disembowel considering they can writhe unhindered right after the stun.

The no-prep shatter -> slice/trip -> impale/club -> disembowel worked because the slice/trip hits almost immediately when the leg breaks, meaning they're 2.2-2.5 seconds into restoration balance by the time they're impaled/stunned and they're still recovering restoration balance when the stun ends, so the leg isn't healed yet.

The difference in our two prep methods is that yours can be writhed out of.  Have you tested it?

(Also, my method is shield-proof - if you're prone, you can't touch shield).

Antonius

Just to clear things up: Impale writhe time is only increased if you have both legs broken. Impale/club is designed to be a guaranteed disembowel, you just need them to still have the broken leg at the point of impale, not the point they start writhing.

Arador

My life is a lie! I always thought that one did increase it a bit. 

Antonius

I didn't play for a period of about four years, but I'm not aware of any announced changes. The original design - and what was implemented - was that only both legs being broken would increase writhe time, but it would increase it enough that anybody could disembowel from it; I think writhing with two broken legs is something like 5 seconds, because races with a balance penalty had a 4.5 second balance on Impale.

Makarios

Only both legs being level 2 broken or higher increases impale writhe time. One does not.

You don't need the extended writhe to dsb if you club, as Antonius described.

Addama

That being the case, you could hypothetically get a double DSB by pulling off @Arador's technique on a victim with both legs prepped (you might lose the torso for the second one, but eh).

Antonius

You'd probably lose the torso damage, yes. Balance time on disembowel is 3 seconds, I think, unaffected by balance modifiers. Slice/trip would be another 2ish, then 3.5ish for impale balance. That's a lot of time to sip and moss/potash back up to recover from the first disembowel if it doesn't kill them.

Assuming they don't have rebounding back up at that point and don't shield after standing from the first one.

Addama

You also have to regain 2 ferocity in order to Shieldstrike high (to mitigate parry/delay restoration) so that gives you time to raze a shield.

Arador

Back on topic, though. I can see a strong case being made for just having Fury as a permanent +2 bonus for Knights, especially with the new Knight specs. Since we are spending this time tweaking and testing, if we find anything completely unbalanced, this would be a great time to address this.

It just takes out the meaningless hassle of managing it with scripts.

Arador

Makarios said:

Only both legs being level 2 broken or higher increases impale writhe time. One does not.

You don't need the extended writhe to dsb if you club, as Antonius described.

My recent testing seems to differ from this statement. If I impale Elazar without a broken leg he writhes off, even with Club. If I break one leg and impale him before the restorations takes effect, I get him every time with Club

Tags: @Antonius @Makarios

Jhui

you can't club without a broken leg though

Antonius

@Arador: What Jhui said. There's no way you're doing impale/club (and getting the stun, maybe the club still works) if they don't have a broken leg.