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Passive Bedevil discussion

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  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Jules said:
    I want to hear more about why it's "fucking dumb" from the Mizik (and I bet I'm not the only one).

    Active bedevil gives something like 50% of your afflictions back to your opponent, whilst healing ALL of your afflictions, for a relatively small equilibrium cost (3 secs eq or so) that can be combo'd with disrupt.

    Passive bedevil, against an affliction class, passively afflicts your opponent with an affliction approximately every 2 seconds.

    They are both incredibly powerful.

    JulesValaria
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,531 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why is this still a thing?


  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,217 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Passive Bedevil: Priest aff stacking is already insane. Disrupt pumps herb balance to 2.4s, then you have your own affs added on to their stacks (curare, sensitivity, focusables, ginsengs), then consider peace is part or their regular offense. 

    Consider curare/paralysis is the staple on every round of affliction based classes. There's a 50% chance that every time you attack, paralysis will be stuck on you for 2.4s, ON TOP of their peace.

    Why bother?

    Active Bedevil: one of their full heals, along with the heavily defended Sacrifice. Except this one transfers afflictions to the opponent with no cap on how many. They still have rite of Healing as a novelty, since they can select an affliction to heal at any time with Heal. Keep in mind, they can still eat/smoke/salve like the rest of us ordinary classes.

    It's a train wreck. 
    image
    Xinna
  • KrossKross Member Posts: 779
    Mizik said:
    Passive Bedevil: Priest aff stacking is already insane. Disrupt pumps herb balance to 2.4s, then you have your own affs added on to their stacks (curare, sensitivity, focusables, ginsengs), then consider peace is part or their regular offense. 

    Consider curare/paralysis is the staple on every round of affliction based classes. There's a 50% chance that every time you attack, paralysis will be stuck on you for 2.4s, ON TOP of their peace.

    Why bother?

    Active Bedevil: one of their full heals, along with the heavily defended Sacrifice. Except this one transfers afflictions to the opponent with no cap on how many. They still have rite of Healing as a novelty, since they can select an affliction to heal at any time with Heal. Keep in mind, they can still eat/smoke/salve like the rest of us ordinary classes.

    It's a train wreck. 
    No no, Mizik, you don't understand.

    Fitness, by definition, is inherently better in every possible way to any Priest healing ability in that it has a balance associated with it making it not reliably forceable by the 2-3 classes that would/could benefit from forcing it. Despite not being able able to be used with weariness, or double its balance with lethargy.

    If you'd take the time to read the OP, you'd see that you're wrong and priests literally -cannot- benefit in any way from bedevil being active against an affliction class if they, themselves, did not put it up without it being forced.

    /sarcasm
    XinnaSynbios
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,473 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We basically already had this about 6-9 months ago when Ernam was playing a Serpent and getting owned by Monks. He used to complain everyday that Serpent had no way to fight Monk and that Monk was impossible to survive against. Then he class/char-hopped to an artied out Monk and still sucked/couldn't kill anyone. Tried to kill me and got owned like 5x.

    image

    AegothShirszaeTreyOmi
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Well, this has taken an interesting turn.  Mizik and Ernam seem to agree on a huge point.  As much fun as people seem to be having taking shots at Ernam, both seem perfectly happy to see the whole ability just go away, while others want all priests to have it as a vulnerability (whether they use it as an ability or not) - to the point where Jarrod even wants it pushed further down the skills list so that priests can't purposely avoid having it, but it's really a great ability for all priests according to Makarios and I have to admit I'm really curious what will happen next. 
  • JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2015
    I apologise on behalf of Ernam for the wasted time all of you that took out of your life to firstly, bother reading this post and secondly to feel obliged to reply to him.

    I don't think anyone who has ever known even a single one of your supposed 12 characters will support your argument because of the poor credibility you have established with half-truths and falsehoods over the years to get your own way.
    Also I don't believe having 12 below mediocre combat capable characters who class hop to the flavour of the month provides you with more credibility when discussing PvP. You clearly have no understanding of how Serpent works even though you have played the class. You gained some notoriety when the new class changes went in and people didn't fully understand the mechanics but I'm sure that did not last very long. 

    Having a poor argument ensconced in mightily fine words only serves to establish that you are attempting to divert attention from the matter at hand by attempting to sound intelligent, which you aren't doing a great job of, by the way.

    I'm not going to bother explaining to you how things work since countless other people have taken time out of their day to respond to this drivel and I firmly stand by the belief that arguing with an idiot is pointless as they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Edit: Also I'm not in the ACC either even though I believe I know more about PvP than 99% of people who play the game, I fully understand the reason why I am not a part of the ACC and that is because I'm immature, volatile and respond in a demeaning and belittling fashion to people who don't understand simple logic (they don't deserve it but I cannot help myself). The fact that you're not a part of the ACC, don't understand why, with your meagre capabilities and then hinting that the reason is because it is dominated by Ashtani is simply ridiculous. Your behaviour is so unacceptable that even if the ACC was full of obnoxious Jarrels, we still wouldn't accept you.

    Jarrel-smalljpg

    DalranJhuiKyrraOmiAegoth
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    There are other people in this thread with viewpoints that... don't match up, too.  I *really* want to see how and if that can be resolved. 
  • ValariaValaria Member Posts: 400 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jarrel said:
    I apologise on behalf of Ernam for the wasted time all of you that took out of your life to firstly, bother reading this post and secondly to feel obliged to reply to him.

    I don't think anyone who has ever known even a single one of your supposed 12 characters will support your argument because of the poor credibility you have established with half-truths and falsehoods over the years to get your own way.
    Also I don't believe having 12 below mediocre combat capable characters who class hop to the flavour of the month provides you with more credibility when discussing PvP. You clearly have no understanding of how Serpent works even though you have played the class. You gained some notoriety when the new class changes went in and people didn't fully understand the mechanics but I'm sure that did not last very long. 

    Having a poor argument ensconced in mightily fine words only serves to establish that you are attempting to divert attention from the matter at hand by attempting to sound intelligent, which you aren't doing a great job of, by the way.

    I'm not going to bother explaining to you how things work since countless other people have taken time out of their day to respond to this drivel and I firmly stand by the belief that arguing with an idiot is pointless as they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Edit: Also I'm not in the ACC either even though I believe I know more about PvP than 99% of people who play the game, I fully understand the reason why I am not a part of the ACC and that is because I'm immature, volatile and respond in a demeaning and belittling fashion to people who don't understand simple logic (they don't deserve it but I cannot help myself). The fact that you're not a part of the ACC, don't understand why, with your meagre capabilities and then hinting that the reason is because it is dominated by Ashtani is simply ridiculous. Your behaviour is so unacceptable that even if the ACC was full of obnoxious Jarrels, we still wouldn't accept you.
    [citation needed]

    2015/01/12 Tecton, the Terraformer has bestowed His divine favour upon you. It will last for approximately 1 Achaean month.
    Ernam
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,319 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If a duck is standing in front of you and you say it's a duck, and then someone comes along and says it's a penguin, how do you resolve it? Does it even need to be resolved? 
    Austere
  • JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2015
    Valaria said:
    Jarrel said:
    I apologise on behalf of Ernam for the wasted time all of you that took out of your life to firstly, bother reading this post and secondly to feel obliged to reply to him.

    I don't think anyone who has ever known even a single one of your supposed 12 characters will support your argument because of the poor credibility you have established with half-truths and falsehoods over the years to get your own way.
    Also I don't believe having 12 below mediocre combat capable characters who class hop to the flavour of the month provides you with more credibility when discussing PvP. You clearly have no understanding of how Serpent works even though you have played the class. You gained some notoriety when the new class changes went in and people didn't fully understand the mechanics but I'm sure that did not last very long. 

    Having a poor argument ensconced in mightily fine words only serves to establish that you are attempting to divert attention from the matter at hand by attempting to sound intelligent, which you aren't doing a great job of, by the way.

    I'm not going to bother explaining to you how things work since countless other people have taken time out of their day to respond to this drivel and I firmly stand by the belief that arguing with an idiot is pointless as they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Edit: Also I'm not in the ACC either even though I believe I know more about PvP than 99% of people who play the game, I fully understand the reason why I am not a part of the ACC and that is because I'm immature, volatile and respond in a demeaning and belittling fashion to people who don't understand simple logic (they don't deserve it but I cannot help myself). The fact that you're not a part of the ACC, don't understand why, with your meagre capabilities and then hinting that the reason is because it is dominated by Ashtani is simply ridiculous. Your behaviour is so unacceptable that even if the ACC was full of obnoxious Jarrels, we still wouldn't accept you.
    [citation needed]
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    I hardly ever get to fight 1v1 like I prefer either, it's usually 1vmultiple.

    Jarrel-smalljpg

    Valaria
  • JarrelJarrel Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jovolo said:
    If a duck is standing in front of you and you say it's a duck, and then someone comes along and says it's a penguin, how do you resolve it? Does it even need to be resolved? 
    That depends entirely on who the people are. If Ernam called it a duck, and I say it is a penguin, then Ernam shoulda gone specsavers.

    Jarrel-smalljpg

    AntoniusElphabaKyrra
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,473 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Valaria said:
    Jarrel said:
    I apologise on behalf of Ernam for the wasted time all of you that took out of your life to firstly, bother reading this post and secondly to feel obliged to reply to him.

    I don't think anyone who has ever known even a single one of your supposed 12 characters will support your argument because of the poor credibility you have established with half-truths and falsehoods over the years to get your own way.
    Also I don't believe having 12 below mediocre combat capable characters who class hop to the flavour of the month provides you with more credibility when discussing PvP. You clearly have no understanding of how Serpent works even though you have played the class. You gained some notoriety when the new class changes went in and people didn't fully understand the mechanics but I'm sure that did not last very long. 

    Having a poor argument ensconced in mightily fine words only serves to establish that you are attempting to divert attention from the matter at hand by attempting to sound intelligent, which you aren't doing a great job of, by the way.

    I'm not going to bother explaining to you how things work since countless other people have taken time out of their day to respond to this drivel and I firmly stand by the belief that arguing with an idiot is pointless as they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Edit: Also I'm not in the ACC either even though I believe I know more about PvP than 99% of people who play the game, I fully understand the reason why I am not a part of the ACC and that is because I'm immature, volatile and respond in a demeaning and belittling fashion to people who don't understand simple logic (they don't deserve it but I cannot help myself). The fact that you're not a part of the ACC, don't understand why, with your meagre capabilities and then hinting that the reason is because it is dominated by Ashtani is simply ridiculous. Your behaviour is so unacceptable that even if the ACC was full of obnoxious Jarrels, we still wouldn't accept you.
    [citation needed]
    I'll go ahead and verify the truth of the bolded statement.

    Citation: Santar.

    image

    AustereJovoloValaria
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,319 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So is this Shecks Bard vs Xinna Priest not happening?
    Mishgul
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    If a duck is standing in front of you and you say it's a duck, and then someone comes along and says it's a penguin, how do you resolve it? Does it even need to be resolved? 

    image
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'm having flashbacks to when most of this playerbase was ~15 right now... To be fair, what's happening right now doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to, but it happens more than it has a right to.  
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,447 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Your own comments don't really add all that much to the discussion, @Jules.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    JinsunTreyKyrraTharvis
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015


    Two full pages of people elaborating on how wrong I am, without a single god damn person explaining why, unless you count various paraphrases of "You are wrong, but I don't know why."   * the big exceptions here are the several (empirically) false assertions made up on the spot as as evidence (see below).

    Also, the pure amount of completely made up numbers that have been generated in the last page is mind boggling.
    Xinna said:
    Active bedevil gives something like 50% of your afflictions back to your opponent, whilst healing ALL of your afflictions, for a relatively small equilibrium cost (3 secs eq or so) that can be combo'd with disrupt.

    50% is not at all true.  It's hard to measure, but it appears to apply the same proc chance as passive bedevil (20-30%) on a one-by-one basis for all the afflictions you have.  While fullheals are powerful, it's hardly unique to priest, and has a cooldown that limits it to once per fight, in all but extremely long battles.  Yes it's a good ability, but every class has good abilities.

    Passive bedevil, against an affliction class, passively afflicts your opponent with an affliction approximately every 2 seconds.

    Passive bedevil afflicting (read: giving someone an affliction they don't already have) every 2 seconds would require a 50% proc chance, and you'd have to completely ignore affliction overlap.  In the fictional world where this was actually the proc chance, the impact of affliction overlap would be even higher than it already is, because it'd ramp up even faster due to the extra affliction being reflected every two seconds.



    Basically, both of those numbers are flat out wrong, and as an experienced Priest, you should know that they are nowhere close to true.  Thankfully, I provided the actual (measured) numbers several times already, which are remarkably lower, particularly in the late combat phase when the probability of passive bedevil reflecting something they don't already have drops to near zero.  (for example's sake, if a venomlocked player were able to attack a priest with passive bedevil up, and was attempting a venom lock, there would be a 0% chance that a single affliction "reflected" would actually afflict them with something new.  In actuality, a venomlocked player can't attack, which accounts for why effective proc chance drops to near zero, but never reaches it, unless the player is not using paralysis, in which case it can actually reach 0%).

    I explained quite accurately how a serpent with only three afflictions attempting to venomlock a priest can experience a passive bedevil proc rate of 7.9%, which is a 100% realistic example that actually occurs in the game on a regular basis.

    What this actually results in is an affliction every 3-4 seconds in early combat, but rapidly approaches something that'd more accurately be described as "they probably won't receive any, at all", as quickly as 4-6 seconds into a fight.  This is pretty different than 50%, and unlike the numbers you provided, I explained exactly how I generated them, and have observed them in actual fights (as have yourselves).

    The statistics can be skewed by repeatedly and intentionally afflicting with afflictions that you yourself do not have, which effectively maximizes the chance of being afflicted by passive bedevil.  They can also be skewed by always using afflictions that you do have which quite literally cancels out the defense entirely.  These are the two extremes of the statisics, but was explained, what serpents tend to actually use falls very near the low end, purely due to the fact that serpents generally lead with the same afflictions that most priests open with (a kelp stack, and paralysis).



    I truly am touched by the chorus of "You're an idiot." and "You're wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why.", or @Jarrel's lengthy "I'd just like to drop in to remind everyone that I am the Jesus of combat, and oh, on a side note, Ernam is an idiot, who is wrong, but I can't be bothered to explain why."

    Unfortunately for the sizable list of people who seem to be incapable of objectively listening to a word I say, I am not going to just accept that my argument is not valid, purely because you are expressing that you don't like me.
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,319 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Jovolo said:
    If a duck is standing in front of you and you say it's a duck, and then someone comes along and says it's a penguin, how do you resolve it? Does it even need to be resolved? 

    I can explain it to you if you don't understand
    Shirszae
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,410 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There have been plenty of reasons cited as to why you are wrong. This doesn't make them inherently right either, but they have given reasons. Or are we reading different threads?

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Shirszae
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Shirszae, your approach to the forums is mostly to passive-aggressively lol at stuff you disagree with - which you no doubt do because more than a few people started hammering you for constantly WTF-ing people (and because only Tecton can actually WTF anyone now).  When you do post, it's mostly micro-comments, which is fine, or your other specialty, micro-snark, neither of which are particularly helpful or interesting.  In truth, that's not actually even relevant, because you could be a total asshole and still make a good point.  I've just wanted to say it for sometime, and now seemed as good as any.  

    Anyway, calling people out for this behavior does work now, because an adult will come in and separate all of the little children.  Seen it happen quite recently even.  And as this is Golden Dais, yeah :|
    ShirszaeErnam
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Jovolo said:
    So is this Shecks Bard vs Xinna Priest not happening?

    Shecks is not a bard, so all this is kindof silly.

    [removed, in vague hope at ending this massive derail]


    Atalkez
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,447 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thanks for proving my point.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Austere
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,410 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lol xinna doesn't say no to duels

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Xinna
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Thanks for proving my point.
    Thank you for proving Jules' point.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
    HaldonShirszaeJules
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Atalkez said:
    Lol xinna doesn't say no to duels

    Xinna flatly refused to fight me, in any form, up until I quit monk, because she publically stated that I was just an "loldamage" monk with no skill, who only won literally every single prior matchup with her because of how broken monk is.  (lets see if I can find the log of me triple-torso comboing her 4 times in a row, then winning with an "overpowered" level 2 torso break BBT).

    I have since won multiple fights with her as Blademaster and Priest, as well.  As it turns out, not everyone in the game dies to Minuet gimmicks, particularly after the blatantly broken mechanic she was using to win was hotfixed.
    MizikVaehlBluef
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,410 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ernam said:
    Atalkez said:
    Lol xinna doesn't say no to duels

    Xinna flatly refused to fight me, in any form, up until I quit monk, because she publically stated that I was just an "loldamage" monk with no skill, who only won literally every single prior matchup with her because of how broken monk is.  (lets see if I can find the log of me triple-torso comboing her 4 times in a row, then winning with an "overpowered" level 2 torso break BBT).

    I have since won multiple fights with her as Blademaster and Priest, as well.  As it turns out, not everyone in the game dies to Minuet gimmicks, particularly after the blatantly broken mechanic she was using to win was fixed.
    Sounds like a fantastic story. Tell us more.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015

    Discuss the topic of the thread, please.  If all you have to contribute is calling me a liar, then just hit the "back" button, and stay there.

    Atalkez
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I bet Ernam's parents hated him.

    "you're grounded."

    "no I'm not!"

    "yes you are, for hitting the neighbors kid"

    "you can't ground me without a reason."

    "...we just gave you a reason."

    "I'm not grounded!"

    "Yes you are."

    " I'm going to pay the admin to ban you!"

    "you're adopted"
    image
    MathonwyHasarMizikBluefTharvisCyla
This discussion has been closed.