Aural Earring - Lets change it, finally!

Nakari

Klendathu said:

Shirszae said:

It does when you people haven't mustered a single valid counter-point. Your collective objections could well be surmised as, "We like it this way because it shows how much more rich we are than the common peasants."

Using the same type of logic, the arguments for changing could be surmised as "We don't want to pay for this, so change it". There's a cost to having the deafness defence, it's missing out on shouts. If you don't want that ongoing cost, buy the artefact. That's my argument, not some facile attempt to lord it over anyone. To me, being able to hear shouts when deaf was worth the investment of 150 cr. To others, paying 1250 credits for a single point of strength (level 3 gauntlets vs level 2) is worth the investment.

Reductio ad absurdum: My character should be stronger, My character works out every day. It's ruining my character's RP not being stronger. I shouldn't have to pay for it. It's not fair.

anyone who plays this game has had to come to accept that there is, to at least a certain extent, a paywall regarding combat.

The upswing to this has been that the rp is accessible to basically everyone, and I feel like changes that continue to facilitate that are only health for the game environment as a whole.

Eld

Klendathu said:

Shirszae said:

It does when you people haven't mustered a single valid counter-point. Your collective objections could well be surmised as, "We like it this way because it shows how much more rich we are than the common peasants."

Using the same type of logic, the arguments for changing could be surmised as "We don't want to pay for this, so change it". There's a cost to having the deafness defence, it's missing out on shouts. If you don't want that ongoing cost, buy the artefact. That's my argument, not some facile attempt to lord it over anyone. To me, being able to hear shouts when deaf was worth the investment of 150 cr. To others, paying 1250 credits for a single point of strength (level 3 gauntlets vs level 2) is worth the investment.

Reductio ad absurdum: My character should be stronger, My character works out every day. It's ruining my character's RP not being stronger. I shouldn't have to pay for it. It's not fair.

That would indeed be an absurd argument, but it doesn't follow at all from the arguments being made in favor of the op. It's not matter of realism. It's a design decision from an earlier point in the game's history that doesn't make sense in the context of the current state of the game.

Nim

The thing about artefacts is that by charging a significant amount of real money for them, you're basically creating a magical little equation pitting the income generated by the artefact against the benefit (or hindrance) the artefact adds to the game, both by existing and naturally by costing a lot of money vs. being free.

The benefit of the aural earrings effect is allowing people to hear shouts while also benefiting from a common status effect that has useful defensive implications.

The major downside of making people pay money for this is the reduction of observers in the shouting channel. I dunno about you, but being able to shout anywhere actually sounds like a cool perk as a dragon... but it's a bit less cool given that a significant fraction of the playerbase might be deaf at any given time, and probably not very many of them have aural earrings.

Other downsides include a degree of exclusivity. Sure, you could just get a noncom friend to repeat shouts to you, but exclusivity is this magical boundary that affects some people more than others. I'm kind of a quiet person playing a shy, introverted character, so basically I hear shouts by luck alone.

The downside that bugs me the most, though, is the sheer lack of logic surrounding it. Some people have claimed there's no RP reason to not hear shouts while deaf, but I'll dig the explanation that mindseye tattoos dull noise enough that you can't even detect that someone's shouting, whatever. We have freaking flying demon daggers, I can handle a bit of silliness like that.

But if that's the case, then why, when my senses are too dulled to hear a roaring freaking dragon bellow across the continent at deafening noise, can I hear some freaking goblin kid that said dragon could trample over and not even realize!

In other words, although I personally think aural earrings detract more than they add, and that the game would benefit from everyone hearing shouts and the earrings being redesigned, honestly I'd just be happy if maybe only divine shouts were heard through mindseye - and not just common divine shouts that might be in response to other players shouting, but really loud ones.

If doing that is a detriment to the game, then I hardly see why not removing the limitation for player shouts is any better. Admins try to improve the game and pour their sweat and blood into it more than most players ever will, but players outnumber admins, and plenty of players try to do the same.

Herenicus

Let's get a tl;dr summary when we cross that five-paragraph threshold. It's the Internet.  

Nim

tl;dr: stop arguing "I want this" and start arguing why what you want is a good idea, also something about goblin kids

probably that they're adorable.

Antonius

Melodie said:

Option 2 - Delete/re-purpose aural earring. Make hearing enchantment hear shouts while deaf. Fades per normal enchantments. Preferably able to enchant on existing earrings, if this is not already the case (I hate creating new items via enchantments).

I'd rather keep the artefact than fuck about with enchantments. 150 credits is the kind of price I happily pay specifically to avoid that nonsense. If you just wanted to change mindseye to allow it that would be fine, but seriously, no enchantments.

Melodie

I'm not really fond of the enchantment idea either, but I'm just throwing out multiple options. Not unless it was a very resilient enchantment.

Kross

I agree! Mindseye can hear in room says, telepathic communication, yells and God's shouting...but not dragons or anyone else that shouts? Come on now...

@Tecton @Makarios‌

Petition to change Mindseye to include shouts is evident and apparent! VIVA LA ACHAEA

Aegoth

mindseye in other IRE games lets you hear shouts. Not sure why oral earrings are a thing here... it's outdated and unneeded

Kross

Aegoth said:

mindseye in other IRE games lets you hear shouts. Not sure why oral earrings are a thing here... it's outdated and unneeded

well oral earrings is a completely different story. I'm down for those ...

Amarillys

Kross said:

Aegoth said:

mindseye in other IRE games lets you hear shouts. Not sure why oral earrings are a thing here... it's outdated and unneeded

well oral earrings is a completely different story. I'm down for those ...

Gross.

Achilles

Amarillys said:

Kross said:

Aegoth said:

mindseye in other IRE games lets you hear shouts. Not sure why oral earrings are a thing here... it's outdated and unneeded

well oral earrings is a completely different story. I'm down for those ...

Gross.

But effective form of contraception

Khairt

This is achaea,  I'm sure someone has RP'd mouth babies. I buy aural earrings all the time, then trade them in to buy different artifacts. I turn shouts off anyway. Removing everyone's ability to shout at will was an amazing decision imo. Cut down on the spontaneous poetry and "GOODNIGHT ACHAEA"s. The intrinsic immersion value of someone's continent wide verbose "no u"s is dubious. Keep world emotes and get rid of shouts altogether. I would also enjoy mindseye hearing shouts but shouting license certification tests which cost 150 credits and can be failed and must be periodically renewed.

Saeva

Khairt said:

This is achaea,  I'm sure someone has RP'd mouth babies. I buy aural earrings all the time, then trade them in to buy different artifacts. I turn shouts off anyway. Removing everyone's ability to shout at will was an amazing decision imo. Cut down on the spontaneous poetry and "GOODNIGHT ACHAEA"s. The intrinsic immersion value of someone's continent wide verbose "no u"s is dubious. Keep world emotes and get rid of shouts altogether. I would also enjoy mindseye hearing shouts but shouting license certification tests which cost 150 credits and can be failed and must be periodically renewed.

No u (convert, heathen)

Jovolo

Shirszae said:

It does when you people haven't mustered a single valid counter-point. Your collective objections could well be surmised as, "We like it this way because it shows how much more rich we are than the common peasants."

And what are the collective arguments of those for the change?

'It should be this way' 'It doesn't make sense' 'I want to hear shouts while remaining deaf 100% of the time without paying 150 credits.' I've seen people imply and outright state that shouts are basic game functionality. The same argument can be made of class skills, yet they still require a significant investment. 

It isn't a staple of roleplay, and it most definitely isn't necessary to roleplay. It just opens up another avenue of roleplay if you decide to either a) purchase the aural earring, or b) remove deafness outside of combat situations. Why is this a problem?

Antonius

Did anybody who wants this even play before ram's horns and such? If you think you're missing out on great roleplay possibilities here I think you'll end up being extremely disappointed. 

Melodie

I can personally tell you that within a week after Melodie's wedding, I missed at least one shout conversation, and Aerek missed 2-3, because of deafness issues. I have started a debate that ended up with fifty or more people in the room with shouts. I have used shouts as ways to insult someone. I have used shouts as a way to appeal to Gods.

Just because they aren't always used for the better roleplaying situations, does not mean they aren't used as such ever. I don't shout a lot right now because of slavehood, really. I'm sure down the road, I would very much like to engage in using them in a meaningful, appropriate manner. I would also like everyone who chooses to (and does not have shouts turned off of course) to be able to respond to them, combatants and non-coms alike.

This is one big reason why I want this changed. I also want it changed in case I'm on the other side of the fence, and some other people are shouting things I would like to actually respond to, but oh no I'm deaf because I'm in the middle of/about to start/just finished combat (duels, raids, shrines, skirmishes, etc).

Y'all undervaluing the effectiveness of shouts by a lot.

Klendathu

Melodie said:

Y'all undervaluing the effectiveness of shouts by a lot.

Not at all, I value them at around 150 cr.

Jovolo

Melodie said:

Just because they aren't always used for the better roleplaying situations, does not mean they aren't used as such ever. 

exactly

Melodie

Clearly Achaea should just start charging memberships to be allowed to roleplay too, then.

Jovolo

You just conceded they aren't necessary by any means to roleplay.

Melodie

They enhance roleplay, if used correctly, is what I'm saying.

Yes, some people shout stupid shit. Some people also have a wet snowflake accent (sry Jones bby). Some people also use says for OOC. Some people have so thin a veneer of character to allow them to do whatever they want, when they want.

Why should you base any kind of consideration on the people who do the dumb shit (which by the way, anything outrightly annoying shouted is usually moderated very well by admin, so I'm not too worried there) over what the potential is?

Shirszae

Honestly, Jovolo, you are coming across as being anything but contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Herenicus

If denizen and divine shouts were treated the same way, maybe people would leave deafness off or buy aural earrings in such numbers as to make player shouting relevant.

Amarillys

Let me see if I get this right...

PROS to changing
More roleplay opportunities.
A bit more sense to a lot of people.
Removing a credit barrier to a roleplay mechanic.
Getting to hear @Melodie more often.
Can keep deafness up to roleplay without burdening your combat effectivity.
Roleplay chance for taunting while fighting.
Allow more people to hear shouts.
Can always turn SHOUTSOFF if you don't want to hear them.

CONS to changing
Status quo, damn it!
The simple fix is keeping down deafness.
Don't be jelly just because some people got money.
Having to hear @Aodfionn more often.  
It's not necessary so why bother?
It could be abused for silliness like it once was. (Isn't that more a worry about the personal ram's horns than being able to hear the shouts?)

Personal opinion? The status ain't quo, guys.

P.S. I love me some Aodfionn, but it's the forums and I'm pretty sure my post becomes irrelevant/illegitimate the moment I don't pick on someone so here we are.

Jovolo

Shirszae said:

Honestly, Jovolo, you are coming across as being anything but contrary for the sake of being contrary.

I have no stake in the argument, I'm just providing counter points to the (in my opinion) weak points presented in this thread. The exact same argument can be applied to almost any other aspect of the game. My reference to class skills earlier, for example. Far more fundamentally and mechanically important by every quantitative assessment you could think of. Yet look at the significant investment (Usually close to $100 if you want to get all of your class skills) they require. You could argue this is attainable in-game - can you not also acquire 150 credits in-game to purchase the aural earrings? I don't want the idea to be given more credence simply because the word "roleplay" has been attached to it. 

I'm still yet to see well-presented arguments in favour of the idea that aren't just "I want them" and "It impedes my roleplay"

Melodie

That's because there's absolutely nothing else the artefact does. If it had some kind of combative benefit then sure, I could understand wishing to be contrary. Like staff of illusions - this has both roleplay and combative effectiveness. The lack of these earrings only stop roleplay, nothing further.

Melodie

Little bump.

Thoughts from up above on possibilities?

Bronislav

Big bump.

Why isn't this a thing? :frown: 

Sarapis

I 100% agree with this, and am making it so. We're going to be removing/refunding them and making mindseye hear shouts.