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City Disfavours

KrossKross Posts: 779Member
Just wanted to know how often these are actually used, if at all. I can barely recall the last CDF that anyone was given in Ashtan. The most recent was highly political and had some pushback from those involved, but ultimately it begs the question:

When is it okay to CDF someone?
When was the last time you yourself CDF'd someone, and what for?
Is CDFing a sort of stigma that people avoid for little things? It seems we get CF'd for tiny contributions -sometimes-, so it would make sense to be CDF'd for something simple sometimes too, right?

Your thoughts; don't derail the thread.
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Comments

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,789Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've only seen city disfavours in Mhaldor used when someone develops a habit of going against the grain, so to speak. Regularly disobeying their superiors, being mouthy on CT, attitude problems, etc. Each city has different standards it applies towards what earns a CF or a CDF. When I was in Ashtan CF's were incredibly easy to get, and they were typically handed out for raid defense participation and the like.  I don't really see CDF as something that minor slipups warrant, but that's just me.


    AlcinaeArador
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPosts: 5,310Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I cdf @Ayoxele all the.gosh darned time

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    VaehlSiduri
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,818Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm sure it will vary by city, but in my experience CDFs are extremely rare. I've actually seen more people get cast out than CDF'ed, and the CDF's I've seen have been pretty clear-cut, unanimous affairs. If I had to guess why:

    • Logistics. Just a function of the fact that fewer people can hand them out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only the ruling council can hand out CDFs, not just any CR6 and not even Ministers. When compared to HDFs, where anyone over HR6 can do so, there's just a smaller group of individuals you really have to piss off to get one.
    • Empathy. CDFs might be rare because CFs are also rare and highly coveted, so there's a sense that you're taking something from someone that is not easily regained. I imagine in Mhaldor you'd rather be executed 10 times before CDF'ed once, just because XP is easy to come by, and CFs are hard. So it might just be leader empathy, hesitating to take away CF progress that may have taken RL years to accumulate, over some medium-to-minor mistake. I know this is an issue for me when it comes to HDFs, because of how HFs are scored. One HR15 HDF from me would wipe out 2 or 3 HR6 HFs they might have gotten in the past, and that's kinda harsh.
    • Practical diplomacy. I've seen plenty of people quit orgs over CDFs and HDFs, and while I think that's foolish, it's a reality that leaders would have to consider. As a leader, you might not be thrilled with an individual's behavior, but whatever they've done might not be bad enough to risk them rage quitting over a CDF or HDF, even if a disfavor was justifiable.
    • Political calculations. In the democratic states, CDF someone and you're turning that person and all their friends against you, which may come around to bite you in an election. This doesn't apply in the game's non-democratic states, but I would absolutely bet that Mhaldor hands out more CDFs than Cyrene or Eleusis if we looked at the statistics, because those cities' leaders have more political safety. Same with Houses, where few to none of the House positions are elected, and HDFs are slightly more common.
    Honestly, in Cyrene, I generally only see CDFs used in situations of "We could technically kick you out for this, but you've done good work in the past and we don't want to do that. Yet." (And as mentioned, there's about a 50/50 chance the person will quit anyway) Younger or less-established members sometimes skip the CDF stage and go straight to castout, though that might be because HR1s don't suffer any penalty from a CDF.

    Hard to say when they "should" be used, because I think the use of CDFs has evolved naturally, so you can't really change when they are used without understanding and addressing why they're not used. Hypothetically speaking, though, since we can't incarcerate public nuisances or criminals in Achaea, I suppose a rule of thumb could be that if it would have gotten you jail time in real life, even for just a day, then you probably deserve a CDF for it.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    TrillianaVayneJeslynUlrike
  • DraqoomDraqoom CyrenePosts: 478Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I make it a habit to CDF at least every day I play. Spread the misery around and all :)
    image

  • AlcinaeAlcinae AFKPosts: 627Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Addama said:
    I have seen a couple of CDFs in Targ, but the people who get them are being complete ass-clowns to earn them.
    Pretty much this. If someone's being an ass-clown, they probably deserve to be knocked down a notch.
    image
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesPosts: 1,368Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I rarely see CDFs in Eleusis. I think the last CDF was for really personal mud-slinging on the news board during an election.

  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontPosts: 1,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    With only one ass to kiss, Mhaldorians enjoy giving and receiving sweet, personalized HDFs and CDFs as part of our Logosmas traditions.
    Arador
  • AddamaAddama Posts: 947Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I always throught Apollyon and Shaitan were more like two cheeks on the same ass.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
    HerenicusMelodieAlcinaeArador
  • LacertixLacertix Posts: 37Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Hashan saw CDFs every now and then for people being really rude on the city channels or causing trouble otherwise, like attacking (or testing abilities) in populated rooms and the like. They weren't issued lightly, though, you really had to try to get one.
  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Someone who I thought was almost universally liked got CDFed in Cyrene sometime this RL year... I was browsing logs, and was sort of shocked.  I guess he was drunk on CT (which for some reason has become an absolute, instant "shut it down" transgression), but that's kind of *who* that character is, and always has been, so I cringed.  I obviously haven't been around much, but Cyrene has been having the occasional stodginess/rank pulling attitude from a few high-ranked members over the past RL year or two.  Hopefully it's just a road bump, because that's not what Cyrene is about.  I certainly wouldn't say it's appropriate, but there's an anecdotal report of Cyrene.  No disfavours in the logs right now though, and I wouldn't say it's ever been happening *often*, but when it does, or of course when people directly or indirectly threaten to do it, that can have a chilling effect.  I don't want to go back to being constantly pounced at CC, or logging on to constant discussions about baked goods, but I'm not crazy about where things have been lately.  It's not our top tier leadership, either, it's slightly lower ranked people with something to prove.  
  • VaehlVaehl Posts: 962Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, at some point I was Cr01 with like 5ish CDFs because @Carmain was bored. >;°{
    MishgulKross
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antidas and I got CDF'd for trying to execute Platonus once when we were new to Targ.

    Good times. Would repeat.
    AntidasJeslyn
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,091Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I should cdf more soldiers when they are obviously ill prepared for defence or raids. :)
    image
    TharvisKrossEld
  • JukilianJukilian Posts: 1,579Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Along those lines, maybe I should get every defender that repeatedly gets pulled by my adduction CDF'd.

    Or maybe their inevitable resulting death is enough when LOS comes to get them. (I know a few people have died as a result of it before).
    TharvisRangor
  • PrythePrythe Posts: 467Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Eleusis threatens them regularly - and have given quite a few over the past real life year.


    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited November 2014

    CFs are given to people who essentially exceed basic expectations, whereas CDFs are given to people who are actively doing something wrong.

    If people do something above and beyond, there's only a small chance they'll get a CF for it (it usually requires establishing a trend).

    The same goes for CDFs.  If you make a mistake, you're generally warned first, unless it's a blatant, intentional crime (which in most cases, just results in outcasting).  Therefore, CDFs also require a "trend" of poor behavior, without breaking into outcasting territory (a very narrow margin for most cities).

    Since the vast majority of players tend to strive to establish "good" trends, and avoid "bad" ones, while adhering to warnings regarding unwanted behavior (bashing the wrong NPCs, mouthing off, abandoning the city during raids, etc), it's therefore understandably very uncommon that CDFs are necessary.


    There should be no assumption that they should somehow "even out" or be balanced, in any way.  The "ideal" city would never, ever, need to CDF people.  (because an ideal city would be full of ideal players, who don't deserve them).  There's nothing wrong with a consistent citywide gradual increase in rank.


    It's also worth noting that around half, if not more, of CDFs are CR1s who don't actually even lose any rank at all.  It's just a way of conveying that they're doing something consistently undesirable.  I've only seen people actually lose a city rank a few times, ever.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. KrossKross Posts: 779Member
        I get that it shouldn't be balanced or even, but no city is "ideal". From a strictly RP standpoint I think for some people a CDF would be worth whatever impact it had on the character, as long as the punishment was something worth  noting.
      2. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNPosts: 1,126Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Draqoom said:
        I make it a habit to CDF at least every day I play. Spread the misery around and all :)
        I didn't even get disfavored for executing that eleusis high ranker in the middle of that sermon that was saying peace every 5 seconds..

        Was still phased and didn't see any of the sermon though.

      3. KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,659Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited November 2014
        The only CDFs I remember in Ashtan was on Hirst and Peak, both of whom were abusing things that they shouldn't have been.

        From what I've seen in most cities, it's a severe slap down for when a talking to won't be effective. I've never seen it been abused.
        (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

      4. FlorentinoFlorentino Posts: 516Member
        edited November 2014
        CDFs can be used as political/religious weapons to lower rank, either for the perceptual benefit of having your high-ranking citizens agree with a certain type of politics or religion or because city laws let you oust/put on trial people of certain low ranks. I don't think this is necessarily *wrong*, just like Security Ministers skimming off the top of fines isn't wrong. It's all RP, really. Obviously this works only in the non-dictatorship cities.

        This hasn't happened in a while to my knowledge as intra-city politics have settled down a little due to efforts from players and the Garden to establish city unity.
      5. KerriaKerria The Red LionessPosts: 1,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Jules said:
        Someone who I thought was almost universally liked got CDFed in Cyrene sometime this RL year... I was browsing logs, and was sort of shocked.  I guess he was drunk on CT (which for some reason has become an absolute, instant "shut it down" transgression), but that's kind of *who* that character is, and always has been, so I cringed.  I obviously haven't been around much, but Cyrene has been having the occasional stodginess/rank pulling attitude from a few high-ranked members over the past RL year or two.  Hopefully it's just a road bump, because that's not what Cyrene is about.  I certainly wouldn't say it's appropriate, but there's an anecdotal report of Cyrene.  No disfavours in the logs right now though, and I wouldn't say it's ever been happening *often*, but when it does, or of course when people directly or indirectly threaten to do it, that can have a chilling effect.  I don't want to go back to being constantly pounced at CC, or logging on to constant discussions about baked goods, but I'm not crazy about where things have been lately.  It's not our top tier leadership, either, it's slightly lower ranked people with something to prove.  

        Cdf only come from the senate as far as I recall... Though the last one I remember was someone who was cursing, yelling, and generally being an asshat.

        I can not think of any senator who is short tempered. Even then the city log may only be a smudge of the story that you'd get with the ministers end.
        Trilliana
      6. AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAPosts: 1,204Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        There was someone in Targ who literally was asking for it, but even he didn't get it. Not sure I've ever seen one yet in Targ.
        Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

        (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


      7. KrossKross Posts: 779Member
        I just think that CDFs open a small window available as a non permanent punishment, but they're under utilized. If you're CR 3, a CDF shouldn't drop you a full CR, but should be a non permanent punishment for something simple. Like blatant OOC in an IC raid defense, or disrespect or whatever. 

        Appreciate everyone staying on topic! 

        AlcinaeTrey
      8. JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean
        Kerria said:
        Jules said:
        Someone who I thought was almost universally liked got CDFed in Cyrene sometime this RL year... I was browsing logs, and was sort of shocked.  I guess he was drunk on CT (which for some reason has become an absolute, instant "shut it down" transgression), but that's kind of *who* that character is, and always has been, so I cringed.  I obviously haven't been around much, but Cyrene has been having the occasional stodginess/rank pulling attitude from a few high-ranked members over the past RL year or two.  Hopefully it's just a road bump, because that's not what Cyrene is about.  I certainly wouldn't say it's appropriate, but there's an anecdotal report of Cyrene.  No disfavours in the logs right now though, and I wouldn't say it's ever been happening *often*, but when it does, or of course when people directly or indirectly threaten to do it, that can have a chilling effect.  I don't want to go back to being constantly pounced at CC, or logging on to constant discussions about baked goods, but I'm not crazy about where things have been lately.  It's not our top tier leadership, either, it's slightly lower ranked people with something to prove.  

        Cdf only come from the senate as far as I recall... Though the last one I remember was someone who was cursing, yelling, and generally being an asshat.

        I can not think of any senator who is short tempered. Even then the city log may only be a smudge of the story that you'd get with the ministers end.
        I actually can't remember who administered the disfavour.  When you say senate, is that as a collective where they discuss it, or one person?  I really don't know.  I wasn't around for the actual CDF, and maybe it was absolutely over the top, but I was pretty surprised to see it, and it sort of fit the atmosphere of greater strictness I've been seeing.  What I'm really hoping, is that that strictness will be seen as a temporary "correction" for a time in Cyrene where things really did descend into the stereotypical pouncing, licking, and endless discussions about baked goods, and the pendulum will swing back.  Because Cyrene has always been a *fun* town.  A town with endless horrible puns on CT, and drunken trample jousting, and of course, the arts in general, sometimes "serious" but very often with quite a lot of tongue in cheek.  
        Jeslyn
      9. KerriaKerria The Red LionessPosts: 1,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        That has been welcome, as long as no one gets ignored in the process. Or excessive in any of those departments. Sometimes when you're told to knock it off it's not because its unwelcom, it's because some little voice in the background is going "help me" and we can't hear it.

        if you feel something is uncalled for... Take it up IG. I can't stress that enough. 

        Mo also don't feel that it's become as "strict" as you make it out. You are mostly dormant so I take that into consideration when your interactions are much less than others.

        as for the senators I cannot speak for how they do things, but it's rare for a minister to jump in and start in on someone without having other aides/ministers for backup. Likely that senators do the same. 


        In in the end HDF CDF are not lightly used, be it stigma or just how many chances someone gets before someone is just tired of giving chances.

        universally loved is also a bit of a stretch no matter who's name you say. For example: people may absolutely adore Czanthria... But I don't doubt for a moment that someone out there has a different opinion of her.
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