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City Disfavours
Just wanted to know how often these are actually used, if at all. I can barely recall the last CDF that anyone was given in Ashtan. The most recent was highly political and had some pushback from those involved, but ultimately it begs the question:
When is it okay to CDF someone?
When was the last time you yourself CDF'd someone, and what for?
Is CDFing a sort of stigma that people avoid for little things? It seems we get CF'd for tiny contributions -sometimes-, so it would make sense to be CDF'd for something simple sometimes too, right?
Your thoughts; don't derail the thread.
When is it okay to CDF someone?
When was the last time you yourself CDF'd someone, and what for?
Is CDFing a sort of stigma that people avoid for little things? It seems we get CF'd for tiny contributions -sometimes-, so it would make sense to be CDF'd for something simple sometimes too, right?
Your thoughts; don't derail the thread.
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Comments
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
6. Watch your language.
The same rules apply as though you were speaking on a public channel in-game (see HELP LANGUAGE RULES). If you're not sure whether the swearing you're about to do violates this rule, just assume it does.
!!!
- Logistics. Just a function of the fact that fewer people can hand them out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but only the ruling council can hand out CDFs,
not just any CR6 and not even Ministers. When compared to HDFs, where
anyone over HR6 can do so, there's just a smaller group of individuals
you really have to piss off to get one.
- Empathy. CDFs might be rare because CFs are also rare and highly coveted, so there's a sense that you're taking something from someone that is not easily regained. I imagine in Mhaldor you'd rather be executed 10 times before CDF'ed once, just because XP is easy to come by, and CFs are hard. So it might just be leader empathy, hesitating to take away CF progress that may have taken RL years to accumulate, over some medium-to-minor mistake. I know this is an issue for me when it comes to HDFs, because of how HFs are scored. One HR15 HDF from me would wipe out 2 or 3 HR6 HFs they might have gotten in the past, and that's kinda harsh.
- Practical diplomacy. I've seen plenty of people quit orgs over CDFs and HDFs, and while I think that's foolish, it's a reality that leaders would have to consider. As a leader, you might not be thrilled with an individual's behavior, but whatever they've done might not be bad enough to risk them rage quitting over a CDF or HDF, even if a disfavor was justifiable.
- Political calculations. In the democratic states, CDF someone and you're turning that person and all their friends against you, which may come around to bite you in an election. This doesn't apply in the game's non-democratic states, but I would absolutely bet that Mhaldor hands out more CDFs than Cyrene or Eleusis if we looked at the statistics, because those cities' leaders have more political safety. Same with Houses, where few to none of the House positions are elected, and HDFs are slightly more common.
Honestly, in Cyrene, I generally only see CDFs used in situations of "We could technically kick you out for this, but you've done good work in the past and we don't want to do that. Yet." (And as mentioned, there's about a 50/50 chance the person will quit anyway) Younger or less-established members sometimes skip the CDF stage and go straight to castout, though that might be because HR1s don't suffer any penalty from a CDF.Hard to say when they "should" be used, because I think the use of CDFs has evolved naturally, so you can't really change when they are used without understanding and addressing why they're not used. Hypothetically speaking, though, since we can't incarcerate public nuisances or criminals in Achaea, I suppose a rule of thumb could be that if it would have gotten you jail time in real life, even for just a day, then you probably deserve a CDF for it.
Or maybe their inevitable resulting death is enough when LOS comes to get them. (I know a few people have died as a result of it before).
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CDFs typically result in a net loss of morale and a good degree of political unrest when the disfavoured party's friends read the logs, so they tend to be reserved for serious or repeated transgressions.
CFs should be given out as often as possible so that people know that you've seen and appreciate their contributions, which will motivate them to continue contributing.
CFs are given to people who essentially exceed basic expectations, whereas CDFs are given to people who are actively doing something wrong.
If people do something above and beyond, there's only a small chance they'll get a CF for it (it usually requires establishing a trend).
The same goes for CDFs. If you make a mistake, you're generally warned first, unless it's a blatant, intentional crime (which in most cases, just results in outcasting). Therefore, CDFs also require a "trend" of poor behavior, without breaking into outcasting territory (a very narrow margin for most cities).
Since the vast majority of players tend to strive to establish "good" trends, and avoid "bad" ones, while adhering to warnings regarding unwanted behavior (bashing the wrong NPCs, mouthing off, abandoning the city during raids, etc), it's therefore understandably very uncommon that CDFs are necessary.
There should be no assumption that they should somehow "even out" or be balanced, in any way. The "ideal" city would never, ever, need to CDF people. (because an ideal city would be full of ideal players, who don't deserve them). There's nothing wrong with a consistent citywide gradual increase in rank.
It's also worth noting that around half, if not more, of CDFs are CR1s who don't actually even lose any rank at all. It's just a way of conveying that they're doing something consistently undesirable. I've only seen people actually lose a city rank a few times, ever.
Was still phased and didn't see any of the sermon though.
Extraordinary single achievement: CF
e.g. "Congrats on getting dragon."
e.g. "You just killed an Ashtani general in solo combat. What are you? Level 30? Shut up and take this CF."
Notable contributions made over time: CF
e.g. "You've been a solid ministry aide for the past five years. Kudos."
e.g. "Six raids we've made upon West since this difficult campaign began, and six times you've been there, zealously disembowelling heretics for the Bloodsworn. Well earned."
Extraordinary fuckup (but we still like you and recognize your contributions): CDF
e.g. "Halos, the Luminai caught you mudsexing with Proficy in the subdivision."
"An instance of passion. It shan't happen again, Lady."
"I am removing you from office, you will wear My disfavour, and here take this CDF."
Generally poor behaviour over time (please stop being an arse): CDF
e.g. "This is the sixth raid this year where you have acted like a child in the defence party. Please do better."
e.g. "I already asked you to stop calling the Treasurer "that self-entitled tree wench" on CT. It's not as hilarious as you think it is."
e.g. "That is actually the third person you've "accidentally killed" whilst using them as unwilling test subjects at Rally Point."
e.g. "You've hit on every priestess in sight since you've joined, you took the Angel Auction far too seriously, and now I hear you just groped the Ambassador?"
e.g. "You joined five minutes ago and have killed five denizens loyal to the city."
e.g. "Did you really just vomit upon the Righteous Fire, novice?"
"Hahaha, he smells funny."
"Really?"
Big fuck up (and are an arse about it afterwards): Oust.
e.g. "No, you were already ordered you to stop sleeping with Proficy."
"And putting out a hit out on the the Eminent Master because you disagree with this order is not okay."
"He had it coming."
e.g. "Someone told me you were hunting Jaru, and you told them to go away."
"That sounds about right."
"Did you know that hunting Jaruvians is not okay, Predicant?"
"Did you know that you're a stupid git, Herald?"
"No, really. You need to stop double slashing that little girl. Now."
"No, really. You are as obnoxious as they come."
From what I've seen in most cities, it's a severe slap down for when a talking to won't be effective. I've never seen it been abused.
This hasn't happened in a while to my knowledge as intra-city politics have settled down a little due to efforts from players and the Garden to establish city unity.
Cdf only come from the senate as far as I recall... Though the last one I remember was someone who was cursing, yelling, and generally being an asshat.
I can not think of any senator who is short tempered. Even then the city log may only be a smudge of the story that you'd get with the ministers end.
Appreciate everyone staying on topic!
if you feel something is uncalled for... Take it up IG. I can't stress that enough.
Mo also don't feel that it's become as "strict" as you make it out. You are mostly dormant so I take that into consideration when your interactions are much less than others.
as for the senators I cannot speak for how they do things, but it's rare for a minister to jump in and start in on someone without having other aides/ministers for backup. Likely that senators do the same.
In in the end HDF CDF are not lightly used, be it stigma or just how many chances someone gets before someone is just tired of giving chances.
universally loved is also a bit of a stretch no matter who's name you say. For example: people may absolutely adore Czanthria... But I don't doubt for a moment that someone out there has a different opinion of her.