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House Ranks/Advancement

JacenJacen
in North of Thera
What are everyone's views on how House ranks and advancement should work? Meaning, how should the advancement structure be laid out with respect to the mechanical House ranks?

The more I play, the more I feel that HR3 should be a simple achievement (don't be a novice) and HR5 should come reasonably quickly after that ( an IG year or so of effort). There should still be a lot of advancement structure post-HR5, with big rewards, but it shouldn't be a necessary undertaking ( Throw someone out if they don't get HR5 in a reasonable amount of time, but they can chill at HR5 as long as they want)

These are just my opinions, obviously. What recipes have you guys enjoyed being a part of, or found to work well to promote activity and membership?
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Comments

  • BukariinBukariin
    I can't use broad strokes and say HR5 is easy for any house, since I've only see the requirements for like three houses, but in every case it seems easy enough to do without buying Credits or Artefacts.

    Maybe it requires some hours, yeah, but that just means you're ready to commit to being a full-blown member.

    TL;DR it seems fine the way it is.
  • EldEld
    Bukariin said:
    I can't use broad strokes and say HR5 is easy for any house, since I've only see the requirements for like three houses, but in every case it seems easy enough to do without buying Credits or Artefacts.

    Maybe it requires some hours, yeah, but that just means you're ready to commit to being a full-blown member.

    TL;DR it seems fine the way it is.
    Don't think the OP is a suggestion for particular changes, just a poll for opinions on what sorts of systems/metrics people have seen work well or poorly. 
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WA
    edited September 2014

    HR5 in the Harbingers felt like graduating from college - Hr3 was the "You have proven your basic knowledge, and now are ready for your education" stage, while HR5 is definitely more like "Well, you graduated - go put into practice what you learned here," which I think is really rad, and (in my opinion) the ideal situation you want to achieve for achieving full membership in a house. To me, that feeling of having accomplished something important, is awesome and should be something we try to promote with all House requirements.


    I wrote more essays to get to HR5 in the Harbingers than I did for some of my college classes. There is nothing wrong with that if you love writing those essays (and I do, otherwise I would probably not choose the 'preacher' role), but I can't help but wonder if our intensive requirements are part of the reason that there are so few members in the house. Even if it was, though, I probably would not want them changed - our role is very unique, and the requirements, while time-consuming and writing-intensive, really are necessary to be able to play the role well.



    Edit: As far as general 'ease,' only the Maldaathi (combat/training tasks take a good bit of time, plus time of service) and Occultists (undefined/case-by-case requirements) seem to have much keeping anyone from getting HR5 in a hurry, if they put their mind to it.


    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
  • TalysinTalysin
    I think Targossas has a great system of difficult to attain HR5.
  • DarklyreDarklyre
    edited September 2014
    I've only ever been in one house, so I really don't know how far people advance in the others, but it looks like a lot of house titles and such are not linked to the actual mechanical house rank.

    For instance, my house title puts me squarely in the middle, in terms of house hierarchy, but my actual house rank is HR11, meaning I'm a few steps below the actual and former house leaders. While yes, that means that my HF and HDF counts for more than 99% of the house, I can't actually use those abilities like someone with a higher house title.

    With how hard it is to actually advance in mechanical house rank, I'd be very surprised if there were more than 20 active characters that are HR10+ and aren't current or former house leaders. It just feels like there's a large disconnect between the mechanics (which are too slow to allow advancement past HR5) and the titles, which is what everyone else came up with.
  • UlrikeUlrike Maryland
    Yeah, characters between HR10 and HR15 seem pretty rare.

  • CarmellCarmell Eastern Washington
    I know in the Harbingers we have a number of different tasks that you can do.  They all require a bit of study but they can be done through either essays, giving quizzes or having discussions.  You are expected to earn so many points towards 3 different sets of our ideals and once you've earned those points you move onto the next rank where you will have a few more tasks with a few more points involved.  We wanted to give people as many choices as we could so that no one could say well all you have are essays which is why we added quizzes and discussions to our tasks list.  You still get to make your own choices though of which tasks you want to do for each section.
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WA
    Carmell said:
    You still get to make your own choices though of which tasks you want to do for each section.

    ^ One of the most awesome things about the Harbingers, and I think this really helps keep people engaged because they get a say in (some) of what they study. 

    Do other houses have anything like that? I know the Sylvans had something similar, but that was years ago.
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Different Houses should have different priorities, so it should vary between organizations. As a general rule, Anedhel said it first, where HR5 does give you the right to vote in House elections/referendums, so if you're any kind of democratic, you need to make sure your 5's are at least informed enough to make sound decisions.

    Past that, it's hard to say. The Maldaathi keeps HR5 for Knights, only, but in the Wardens, HR5 came as you became a Page and actually start your Knightly training. (Pre-HR5 was generic army/soldier training) Knighthood itself was just a higher honor within the House, and most folks got it around HR7-9. In the Shield, so far, it's the opposite, where HR5 is the big achievement, and designed so most everyone can reasonable achieve it, with no "higher honor" positions after it unless you want to go leadership.

    Don't think it's a one-size-fits-all scenario, really.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • CarmellCarmell Eastern Washington
    Silas said:
    Carmell said:
    I know in the Harbingers we have a number of different tasks that you can do.  They all require a bit of study but they can be done through either essays, giving quizzes or having discussions.  You are expected to earn so many points towards 3 different sets of our ideals and once you've earned those points you move onto the next rank where you will have a few more tasks with a few more points involved.  We wanted to give people as many choices as we could so that no one could say well all you have are essays which is why we added quizzes and discussions to our tasks list.  You still get to make your own choices though of which tasks you want to do for each section.
    Yeah, I really like what Halos did with the House reqs. They're very structured, so people know what they should be doing and what's expected of them, but at the same time they're very freeform so each individual can approach it their own way. It's pretty much exactly what I want to see from House novice reqs.

    ETA: Kross also makes a very good point. I don't think it's always elitism, but a lot of people are far too stingy with their city and House favours. Favouring people costs you literally nothing, and always gives whoever you favour a lift because it shows they're being noticed for what they're doing. You shouldn't give them out frivolously, because that way you cheapen them, but I'd be surprised if a full day went by where somebody didn't do something worthy of a CF. Just requires you to pay attention to the people around you and what they're up to, which is a very good way to play the game in a general sense.
    I think that's why I like Targossas project for CF's a lot.  Anyone can recommend anyone else for a CF and then when the Lumarchs are around they can look at the project and CF those people that have been recommended with the reason why and who recommended it.
  • IocunIocun
    Aerek said:
    Different Houses should have different priorities, so it should vary between organizations. 
    That's the most important thing for me. As it is, many houses seem to be following the same kind of "requirements - interview - advancement" setup, making the structure of different houses much more similar than they need to be.

    Why not have a combat-focused house with a promotion system that consists entirely of duels between members - the more people you can beat up, the higher your rank? Etc.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • BukariinBukariin
    Iocun said:

    Why not have a combat-focused house with a promotion system that consists entirely of duels between members - the more people you can beat up, the higher your rank? Etc.

    Shield has exactly this: Beyond HR3, your requirements for promotion are entirely based on your participation in spars, duels, arena events, city defense, etc. 
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug
    HR3 should be easy. Know basic stuff, have basic stuff, understand what the House is about and therefore what you will be about as a member.

    HR5 should be straightforward. Clearly listed set of tasks designed to qualify you as the House's archetype. In addition to the basic boot camp tasks, have some branching options for different playstyles - although this may be less necessary with the renaissance redesigning Houses to each fit one particular playstyle.

    Beyond that, there should be some general avenues of loosely managed progression relating to the House's identity. I've been in Houses where all the advancement stuff evaporated after hitting full member. Or where theoretical advancement paths existed, but it was never supervised or encouraged. It left me with a strong feeling of aimlessness in contrast to the very clear goal I always had pre-HR5.

    People should HF freely. Any time anyone does anything of merit, talk it up and HF them. So many people are reluctant to HF. It's not even elitism, I think they just don't feel they're allowed, or perhaps they believe the higher ranks are reserved for some theoretical ideologue that doesn't actually exist outside of hypothesis. I don't understand any reluctance to fill up all the numbered ranks. First, it's hard, because you start needing a buttload of HFs to advance after about HR7-8. Second, even if you did ever fill up all those ranks and find yourself with a glut of HR15s, you can just invent new titles of prestige to accord people who earn them.

    It should not be understated that Houses fill a crucial gameplay function in giving you these goals to play towards. If they're not doing that, it's as much of a failure as if there were no high-level bashing, or advanced PK.
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  • JovoloJovolo
    Pfft
  • HaliosHalios
    edited September 2014
    Blujixapug said:
    HR3 should be easy. Know basic stuff, have basic stuff, understand what the House is about and therefore what you will be about as a member.

    HR5 should be straightforward. Clearly listed set of tasks designed to qualify you as the House's archetype. In addition to the basic boot camp tasks, have some branching options for different playstyles - although this may be less necessary with the renaissance redesigning Houses to each fit one particular playstyle.

    Beyond that, there should be some general avenues of loosely managed progression relating to the House's identity. I've been in Houses where all the advancement stuff evaporated after hitting full member. Or where theoretical advancement paths existed, but it was never supervised or encouraged. It left me with a strong feeling of aimlessness in contrast to the very clear goal I always had pre-HR5.

    People should HF freely. Any time anyone does anything of merit, talk it up and HF them. So many people are reluctant to HF. It's not even elitism, I think they just don't feel they're allowed, or perhaps they believe the higher ranks are reserved for some theoretical ideologue that doesn't actually exist outside of hypothesis. I don't understand any reluctance to fill up all the numbered ranks. First, it's hard, because you start needing a buttload of HFs to advance after about HR7-8. Second, even if you did ever fill up all those ranks and find yourself with a glut of HR15s, you can just invent new titles of prestige to accord people who earn them.

    It should not be understated that Houses fill a crucial gameplay function in giving you these goals to play towards. If they're not doing that, it's as much of a failure as if there were no high-level bashing, or advanced PK.
    This is so well said it deserves to be pasted on the front page of Achaea.com

    That intangible "gap" of players is quite noticeable.

    One thing I tried to institute in the Naga guild and then House during my tenure there was a pathway of ranks and "jobs" like a corporation, in order to give people goals. Combat, Thieving, Intellectual pursuits, what have you. I think I reached HR9 and that was mostly off the back of that work.

    I think it's important to structure the Houses such that HFs are given out for performance in any realm or in any vein the person so chooses, as long as it fulfills the overarching goals of the House/City/Org.  Otherwise, you end up with a lot of HFs/infrastructure favoring administrative work over all else.

    If there are positions of leadership/accomplishment within every vein of pursuit within -each- house, then people won't feel stifled and burdened by the apparent need to conform to one perceived "path" to rank, because they'll have mentors/people to favor them for their work within that realm. When the leadership becomes concentrated among one vein of effort, it can be an issue.

    I think a good way to look at it is that HFs should reflect effort and passion when it is noticed, not just checking boxes off of an administrative timeline or to-do-list.


  • AnedhelAnedhel
    My problem with frivolous/lenient favouring is that you can't really bring a person's rank down without it being a straight up punishment (HDF, no matter how you word it, always feels like getting kicked in the knee, I assume). Therefore, without a way to remove rank, I don't like the idea of someone climbing up for doing the same thing; when I mentioned that advancement before HR 5 should come with a -tangible- gain for the House, as a whole, that's more or less what I'm guarding against. I don't think people should not get favoured for doing lots of spars. But if you never take the fight to an actual enemy, will 100 spars make you more valuable to the House than if you underwent 50 spars? I'm not inclined to give/receive favours for doing the same thing over and over unless it actually brings some gain, some benefit, to the org I'm part of. Arbitrary reqs for HFs above HR5 just seem weird to me.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    The Ashura has a set of requirements post HR5 (Sempai) to get to Sensei, but aside from one of the Sensei requirements being to have achieved HR8, there's no correlation between house rank and title. Indeed, many of the recent "officers" of the Ashura have come from the Sempai pool rather than the Sensei pool, selected because of their ability to do the job required, not due to house rank. I don't think anyone in the Ashura really cares too much about house rank, as we all refer to ourselves by our titles and are seen as pretty much equal amongst our peers (eg all Kohai are equal, all Sempai are equal, etc!)

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • JarrodJarrod
    Blujixapug said:
    People should HF freely. Any time anyone does anything of merit, talk it up and HF them. So many people are reluctant to HF. It's not even elitism, I think they just don't feel they're allowed, or perhaps they believe the higher ranks are reserved for some theoretical ideologue that doesn't actually exist outside of hypothesis. I don't understand any reluctance to fill up all the numbered ranks. First, it's hard, because you start needing a buttload of HFs to advance after about HR7-8. Second, even if you did ever fill up all those ranks and find yourself with a glut of HR15s, you can just invent new titles of prestige to accord people who earn them.
    This is something I've tried to encourage in SS. Everyone is encouraged to HF if anyone does something they themselves deem HF worthy. Sometimes it's small things, sometimes it's bigger things. I personally don't HF often, and use mine for either someone putting in a lot of time (like our HoN does) or when someone meets one of the various goals from a couple programs I made. All the programs are basically opt-in. You don't have to be in any clan or any group, just participate in the things when someone in the House wants to do them, or invite others to go with you when you want to do one. If you do enough, there's set points that you get HR15 HFs, though some people like to HF before those points for exceptional performance, which is fine.

    We have a lot of HR9+ members, I think the highest person we have that has never been HL is HR13 right now, which is pretty cool.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • IocunIocun
    Not as much as the fact that you're called Daeir, not Dear.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

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