Fashioning, and the royal pain that it is.

Patroklos

So, I've been doing some extensive testing, and it seems that no matter what I try to do, I need upwards of 70 fashions to -really- kill most people. I need to write a tracker to keep track of true fashion proc I think (though I'm sure @Sena already has some reliable numbers) to properly check it out. Right now it seems to be around maybe 15% or so, and even then I've gone entire fights without a single truefashion proc.

My typical means of hindering for fashions involves just binding and getting one, MAYBE two fashions if I'm lucky on the writhe. If I can get a truefashion or two, I'm ahead in fashions, otherwise at best, I'm a single fashion ahead. We all know hangedman are only useful really in group combat since most the time your target will writhe out before you get balance back, and SVO/Omni have made dry aeon to slow people down a joke. Bombs aren't very useful either, as most people reflexively will put them into their bags, or drop them to hinder both of you. 

So that brings me to the question, are there any more fashion effective methods of hindering out there?

Sobriquet

Sounds like you need to speak to a proper Jester

Patroklos

Sobriquet said:

Sounds like you need to speak to a proper Jester

Well, @Sobriquet‌I'd discussed some tactics with @Talysin on how to utilize my skills a bit more efficiently to actually pull off the kills. The issue is now keeping someones offence wrecked to the point I can survive. I know I really need to change over from con  to dex spec though, especially now that I'm riding a legendary mount so my avoidance is through the roof. However, the issue is with being Eleusian, there really aren't any good Jesters there.

Sena

Patroklos said:

I need to write a tracker to keep track of true fashion proc I think (though I'm sure @Sena already has some reliable numbers) to properly check it out. Right now it seems to be around maybe 15% or so, and even then I've gone entire fights without a single truefashion proc.

I think truefashion is a 30-40% chance for jesters and a 60-70% chance for shamans.

Patroklos

Sena said:

Patroklos said:

I need to write a tracker to keep track of true fashion proc I think (though I'm sure @Sena already has some reliable numbers) to properly check it out. Right now it seems to be around maybe 15% or so, and even then I've gone entire fights without a single truefashion proc.

I think truefashion is a 30-40% chance for jesters and a 60-70% chance for shamans.

@Sena I'll make a tracker tonight and get some harder numbers. I'll go with a sample size of something like 1010 fashions so it'll balance out to roughly ten full dolls. Any idea why the unbalanced truefashion chance? 

Sena

I'm not sure why it's different. Presumably someone decided that shamans need faster fashioning, but it was before I started playing (probably been that way since the classes were released).

Bluef

Sena said:

Patroklos said:

I need to write a tracker to keep track of true fashion proc I think (though I'm sure @Sena already has some reliable numbers) to properly check it out. Right now it seems to be around maybe 15% or so, and even then I've gone entire fights without a single truefashion proc.

I think truefashion is a 30-40% chance for jesters and a 60-70% chance for shamans.

Really? That's really surprising. I've had many fashion-offs with Kaie and he matches me fashion for fashion. Hm, maybe I'll put this to the test with him when he's next in realm. Thanks for the info, @Sena!

Bluef

Bombs can still be very useful if you know how to use them, but they do have some issues at present. Jesters definitely don't have the same kind of hindering that shamans do, but there are ways to address that. 

With jester (and shaman) you really need to be somewhat creative in your approach. There isn't necessarily going to be one guaranteed way to kill anyone although there are a myriad of possibilities. It's really important with both classes to be flexible and agile enough to move quickly out of one set up and defend, run/balloon, or slide into a new offense.

Don't be afraid to be a trickster. Making an opponent unwield something or put a defense they don't want up (or take one down they do want up) can work to your advantage. Think about this a bit and I'm sure you'll come up with some interesting possibilities. 

Maybe the most important thing I can offer is that if you use pranks, tarot, and puppetry together to kill someone, you won't need anywhere near 70 fashions to do it. 

Patroklos

@Sena After experimenting, this is what I got: 

[Clownin' Around]: Tracking: TrueFashions-[325]/Fashions-[1003] Fashions - 32%

Talysin

I'd say just keep practicing. You'll really find that strategies kind of just come to you.

Stuneree

What exactly IS fashioning? I see people saying things like, "I had 85 fashions", but what is that? From what I could guess, it's a really small-balance ability that you spam while in the room with your target or something? And then the more you make, you can spend those fashions on abilities or something?

Razha

Basically, you take the doll and fashion it in the presence of the person you made it from. Then you do that over, and over, and over again. Vodun abilities basically require a certain number of fashions on the doll in order to be used, and also take away a certain number of fashions after you use them.

Example:

Syntax: VODUN CONFUSION

                   

Extra Information: Fashions:

                   Required: 5

                   Used    : 1

Works on/against:  Adventurers

Details:

This will cause your victim to become mentally confused.

Stuneree

Is there an affliction system with fashioning similar to deadeyes or doublestabs where two afflictions are applied? Jester is so gimmicky

Strata

Jester is easy.

while true do    sendAll("say Duanathar", "[fashion stuff]" .. target, "travel to [friend in your city]", false)end

Sobriquet

Stuneree said:

Is there an affliction system with fashioning similar to deadeyes or doublestabs where two afflictions are applied? Jester is so gimmicky

I dropped you a message IG, it'll be much easier to explain how this works in the arena.

I've always been under the impression Shaman's have a higher TrueFashion chance than Jesters and I assumed it was because we have more hindering abilities with bananas, tarot, bombs etc.

@bluef What do you see as the issue with bombs?  The only thing I'd change is to remove or reduce the time variation to make them a little more reliable. I -think- that was a hangover from Manu arming and giving 30 at a time and dropping a jitb, but I maybe wrong.

Bluef

Sobriquet said:

Stuneree said:

Is there an affliction system with fashioning similar to deadeyes or doublestabs where two afflictions are applied? Jester is so gimmicky

I dropped you a message IG, it'll be much easier to explain how this works in the arena.

I've always been under the impression Shaman's have a higher TrueFashion chance than Jesters and I assumed it was because we have more hindering abilities with bananas, tarot, bombs etc.

@bluef What do you see as the issue with bombs?  The only thing I'd change is to remove or reduce the time variation to make them a little more reliable. I -think- that was a hangover from Manu arming and giving 30 at a time and dropping a jitb, but I maybe wrong.

Bombs: Their timing is really random, yeah. If they were more reliable that'd be the best thing ever.

Personally, I'd love to see them changed so they're usable only by jesters but I know that won't be popular. Likewise, I'd love some way to keep my explosive little creations from hitting me, particularly since pass back or bomb packing means they have to be dropped more often than not. 

Talysin

I wish smoke bomb would do something when timed/handed off.

Patroklos

Sobriquet said:

Stuneree said:

Is there an affliction system with fashioning similar to deadeyes or doublestabs where two afflictions are applied? Jester is so gimmicky

I dropped you a message IG, it'll be much easier to explain how this works in the arena.

I've always been under the impression Shaman's have a higher TrueFashion chance than Jesters and I assumed it was because we have more hindering abilities with bananas, tarot, bombs etc.

@bluef What do you see as the issue with bombs?  The only thing I'd change is to remove or reduce the time variation to make them a little more reliable. I -think- that was a hangover from Manu arming and giving 30 at a time and dropping a jitb, but I maybe wrong.

Biggest issue I have with bombs is that short of destroying both arms, it's just -too- for a person to get rid of the bombs short wasting fashions on a touch tree/blackout.

Talysin

Blackout yes.

Patroklos

The only issue with that is I have it scripted so when I come out of blackout, an inventory check is done, so bombs are automatically shunted into my bomb bag/pack.

Bukariin

Patroklos said:

The only issue with that is I have it scripted so when I come out of blackout, an inventory check is done, so bombs are automatically shunted into my bomb bag/pack.

Then keep your bombs in your pack and don't pull them out until you're actually using them.  This also prevents people from forcing bombs into your pack, dropping them or handing them off untimed (this is a unique problem for Jesters as you basically have to fight with Selfishness down).

Patroklos

@Bukariin‌ I think you're missing the problem. I'm saying that if I already scripted something to counter it, than the money's good someone else already thought of the scenario and did too. I try to account for anything that's a complete game changer on tactics.

Cooper

You can't think of a way to prevent someone from putting someone in their pack?

Talysin

Cooper said:

You can't think of a way to prevent someone from putting someone in their pack?

Broken arms?

Patroklos

Broken arms are about it, but that takes up fashions you could be using for something else.

Cooper

Shouldn't be relying on bombs to increase your fashions, then.

Bluef

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can drop bombs even with broken arms. Not quite the same benefit as passing back/packing but yeah, problematic. That said, if people are going to drop them anyway, and you don't want to waste fashions on broken arms, then perhaps think of strategies to use that involve you controlling when bombs are dropped in a room. 

Ernam

Complaining about fashioning, from the jester's point of view.  Now that's a new one.

You'll get no sympathy from me.  #deletejester2014


Jester has massive amounts of hindrance and escape at their disposal.  Arguably one of the best classes at both.  It certainly takes far less than 70 fashions to kill, and it shouldn't be hard at all to get enough to do it.

Seftin

Fashioning is a pretty dull mechanic both as a jester and as their target.

Hindering as a jester is pretty easy, and avoiding what a jester does is pretty simple if you follow some simple safety checks (yes I am aware that there are certain things that you can't necessarily escape).

I loved jester for its ability to have many variations of attack dependent on the person you were fighting, more so than almost any other class whether it be a simple force kill, death tarot, mangles, hardlock, slow lock etc. The reason I have changed from jester so much is A) most people refuse to fight them B)The prep is pretty dull (there's not a lot to do at the lower end of fashioning against a certain level of oponent) and C) It can be complex to manage all the resources that you need to potentially ensure a kill (lots of missed kills due to not managing my mickeys/jitb/death tarot rubs effectively).

I think a big part of the reason that people wont fight Jester isn't so much to do with jester having all the escape abilities, but more the idea that at 50+ fashions they are almost guaranteed to lose the fight (which isn't necessarily true) and also the mechanic behind fashion being based around fashion/run and fashion/hinder leading to a very staggered and relatively boring fight for the other classes where you can spend 2 minutes in a fight making no headway against the jester, yet the jester slowly getting fashions to potentially destroy you.

Only way I can see this changing is to change how jesters offense works from being a prep class through fashion in to a burst class that requires the jester to stay in the room and keep on the offense the whole time (similar to most affliction classes) and only use hinderance like hangedman when they are desperately in need, as at present there is no loss to their use of hangedman for their overall defence (or a bind, or even a mangle

Talysin

I totally agree with you @Seftin, minuet does need to be nerfed.

Seftin

why are you staying in their room long enough to get hit with minuet