New Dragon Changes

Talysin

ANNOUNCE NEWS #4163 (07/15/2014 at 02:09)

From : Sarapis, the Logos

To : Everyone

Subject: Dragons

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I think you'll all be pleased to know that we've made some adjustments to Gut

and Incantation for Dragons to increase their damage, based on your feedback

about last week's changes. We're confident that these changes make Dragons very

competitive hunters in comparison to all but some outlier class/artifact/trait

combinations when used against mobs that behave in certain ways.

We've also made some changes to the overall way in which the damage bonuses from

strength and intelligence are applied to Dragons. Because Dragons had such a

high base strength and intelligence, they did not benefit greatly from further

increases in those stats. The changes that we've applied will now allow for

Dragons to see greater benefits from increases in strength and intelligence

against both denizens AND adventurers.

Penned by My hand on the 19th of Lupar, in the year 659 AF.

Cooper

@sena

Sena

I've been trying to work out how the str/int bonuses work now, haven't quite figured out incantation (and I'm not 100% certain on gut).

Gut is 760 at 18 str, 809 at 19 str. Based on that, I'd guess that str for gut effectively works as if 18 was the base instead of 12 (so going from 18 to 19 as a dragon is like going from 12 to 13 in lesserform). Having only those two data points though, that's really just a guess, and I also don't know how the diminishing returns work here.

Incantation is 754 at 18 int, 855 at 20 int. This is actually a bigger difference than gut gets from str. Again, with only those data points, I can't be sure how the stat bonuses work.

Blast is still 600 damage. I only just learned that blast goes through/breaks denizen shields though, so it actually is useful despite the low damage (I'm guessing most dragons already knew that?).

If anyone has int arties that aren't level 2, or strength arties of any level, I can try to get more information on the stat bonuses. Even if you're not a dragon, lending the arties would be helpful.

Melodie

Sena and I were chatting while we were testing, and this was mentioned in a previous thread by her as well, but I wanted to make the request here. @Sarapis, @Tecton, and @Mortori.

As it stands, gut is about 2.7~ seconds (give or take some lag), while incantation stands at 4.1-4.2 or so. This disparity (which can be mitigated with a diadem to reach about 3.5~) sort of makes it so even if you have all the artefacts, an intelligence-based class is going to get the short end of the stick regarding actual dragon hunting (aka, going to just have to deal with unartied gut nearly always being better DPS wise, or buying some gauntlets, which is definitely not on my particular list right now).

My suggestion would be lowering incantation's eq time as to be either at or a little bit above gut's balance time (maybe with a diadem, work out to be about 2.8-3 seconds or something similar - I'm not good on numbers, so take that as an estimate). This way, one can "specialize", in a sense anyway, the sort of dragon they are. Are you strong and more menacing with your claws, or is it your own puissance that wrecks havoc upon the masses? It's both good for flavour, and good for those who potentially have artefacts to help augment being a dragon on its own. We do want to be careful here, as there are two major artefacts (three it you count diadem, but to be fair, that helps everybody) that help incantation, whereas only one (I think) helps gut. But I think a good balance could be found.

I'm also curious if allowing major traits in dragonform would be a consideration? I have less opinion on this, as while I think it would be awesome, I know this has 310830180318 more combat implications. Feel free to voice opinion, I'm curious what both the admin and players think on this!

Also, a thank you to the admin for listening to your players. I know we are an absolutely rambunctious and complain-y group sometimes, but it is good to see things being heard, considered, and new changes being pushed forth (rather quickly, too).

Sena

Too late to edit the post, but I also want to add that serpent (assuming a good whip and dex spec) still has better offence than dragon. Garrote might need some adjusting, unless it was already changed and just wasn't announced (or it was included with the weaponry/DSL changes).

Triak

With level 3 collar and sash and diadem my incantation was doing 1062 at 3.5 eq.

Sena

Still having trouble with the stat formula, need to see gut at 20-22 str and/or incantation at 19 int.

Sena

Well, no luck figuring out the formula (it doesn't have diminishing returns or increasing returns (or it has both, depending on how you look at it); with gut you get +49, +44, +48, +41 from 18 to 19, 19 to 20, 20 to 21, and 21 to 22 respectively), but I have most of the stats covered anyways, which is all you really need.

Gut
18: 760
19: 809
20: 853
21: 901
22: 942

Incantation
18: 754
19: 806
20: 855
21: ?
22: 946

So, incantation with diadem and L3 collar is about equal to gut at any stat point. The fact that there's no jera equivalent for int means gut still has a slight advantage though.

Arador

Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

Sena

Arador said:

Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

Incantation is somewhat worse because of overkill (for example, some damage might be wasted because you only needed half of it to finish the denizen, so you're always getting the slower speed but not always benefiting from the higher damage), faster attacks have better crit distribution (faster, weaker attacks mean more consistent damage, rather than less frequent bursts that, again, probably waste a lot on overkill), and because faster attacks are better defensively (don't have to wait as long to run if things get bad), but it's not weaker in terms of damage over time (since it's ~20% slower and ~20% stronger, making it about equal).

Arador

Sena said:

Arador said:

Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

Incantation is somewhat worse because of overkill (for example, some damage might be wasted because you only needed half of it to finish the denizen, so you're always getting the slower speed but not always benefiting from the higher damage), faster attacks have better crit distribution (faster, weaker attacks mean more consistent damage, rather than less frequent bursts that, again, probably waste a lot on overkill), and because faster attacks are better defensively (don't have to wait as long to run if things get bad), but it's not weaker in terms of damage over time (since it's ~20% slower and ~20% stronger, making it about equal).

Are those numbers you posted the full damage potential, or without the collar? I read them as including the collar which puts them at the same damage as gut but without the speed. 

If they are without the collar, then I see what you mean. 

Sena

The numbers I posted are without the collar.

Vortok

Sena said:

Blast is still 600 damage. I only just learned that blast goes through/breaks denizen shields though, so it actually is useful despite the low damage (I'm guessing most dragons already knew that?).

Gut is 40 Endurance (Incantation is 40 Willpower, 150 mana).  Summon is 100 Endurance (and 300 mana) and Blast is 100 Endurance, so it's a 40 vs 200 Endurance question to use a weaker attack (that, against most decent strength and stronger enemies won't even finish them without a crit or better) instead of just waiting for them to drop their shield and just using Gut/Incantation.

Blast is not nearly as sustainable to spam for longterm bashing as Gut is (alternating Blast and Incantation might be a thing if the damage numbers were attractive - would still be a higher Endurance cost than pure Gut usage, though).  Blast remaining significantly weaker in damage feels like it may be an oversight.  That it seems to be unaffected by artefacts could possibly even warrant setting the damage just a tad higher than baseline Gut/Incantation (say 800 or so, similar to a Gut with just a Jera boosting it) which would also give it more 'finisher' oomph.  Maybe they just have a different vision of Blast's role when it comes to bashing, though.

It really is a pretty minor quibble, though.

Gut and Incantion will likely never be completely equal, especially because the methods of boosting them are different (Diadem/Collar vs Jera).  Being of similar strength means Incantation will still be useful, even if just to mix in a bit with Gut for characters with Will based lesserform classes who aren't equipped for suddenly becoming an Endurance based bashing class that they'd be if they used purely Gut and Blast.

Veldrin

Bards got a voicecraft ability that strips shields too (I loved having that ember while I was bashing, ohh yes)

Tesha

It doesn't break shield, just goes through it. Also, incantation can be done with two broken arms. I'm not sure if it ignores any other afflictions, but that made it amazing against scorpions in Underworld. Good to take into consideration - it might not be intended as a primary attack.

Sarapis

Incantation is indeed very slightly worse than gut when all relevant arties are accounted for, but as others have pointed out, has small advantages in other places.

I think one of the other advantages of gut/incantation is that unlike other classes, when your willpower/endurance runs out, you can switch to an attack that uses the other one. 

Antonius

Tesha said:

It doesn't break shield, just goes through it. Also, incantation can be done with two broken arms. I'm not sure if it ignores any other afflictions, but that made it amazing against scorpions in Underworld. Good to take into consideration - it might not be intended as a primary attack.

I generally just stopped curing legs (unless it was a DK + multiple scorpions) and carried on using Gut to kill scorpions; much faster and made it easier to keep ahead of afflictions if there was three or four in a room since you could actually outrift. With the numbers on Incantation being slightly closer, it might be worth it.

Traelor

Sarapis said:

I think one of the other advantages of gut/incantation is that unlike other classes, when your willpower/endurance runs out, you can switch to an attack that uses the other one. 

I like this fact a lot. I think we've been so used to Dragon simply being OP that we've kind of glossed over the awesome utility built into the class.

Arador

I have always done that when endurance ran out, especially after I got my diadem. Sure it was not as good but it was better than sleeping. Also, agree on the arms thing. I do not understand why people always prio legs over arms when not prone. or if not fighting something that you need to run from.

Even in its weaker mode now, Dragon hunting still has awesome advantages. I can bash a little bit faster in lesser but when walking in on a large group, dragon does not even blink where in lesser it can be hairy.