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New Dragon Changes

TalysinTalysin Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

ANNOUNCE NEWS #4163 (07/15/2014 at 02:09)

From : Sarapis, the Logos

To : Everyone

Subject: Dragons

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I think you'll all be pleased to know that we've made some adjustments to Gut

and Incantation for Dragons to increase their damage, based on your feedback

about last week's changes. We're confident that these changes make Dragons very

competitive hunters in comparison to all but some outlier class/artifact/trait

combinations when used against mobs that behave in certain ways.

We've also made some changes to the overall way in which the damage bonuses from

strength and intelligence are applied to Dragons. Because Dragons had such a

high base strength and intelligence, they did not benefit greatly from further

increases in those stats. The changes that we've applied will now allow for

Dragons to see greater benefits from increases in strength and intelligence

against both denizens AND adventurers.

Penned by My hand on the 19th of Lupar, in the year 659 AF.

Comments

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,084 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena and I were chatting while we were testing, and this was mentioned in a previous thread by her as well, but I wanted to make the request here. @Sarapis, @Tecton, and @Mortori.

    As it stands, gut is about 2.7~ seconds (give or take some lag), while incantation stands at 4.1-4.2 or so. This disparity (which can be mitigated with a diadem to reach about 3.5~) sort of makes it so even if you have all the artefacts, an intelligence-based class is going to get the short end of the stick regarding actual dragon hunting (aka, going to just have to deal with unartied gut nearly always being better DPS wise, or buying some gauntlets, which is definitely not on my particular list right now).

    My suggestion would be lowering incantation's eq time as to be either at or a little bit above gut's balance time (maybe with a diadem, work out to be about 2.8-3 seconds or something similar - I'm not good on numbers, so take that as an estimate). This way, one can "specialize", in a sense anyway, the sort of dragon they are. Are you strong and more menacing with your claws, or is it your own puissance that wrecks havoc upon the masses? It's both good for flavour, and good for those who potentially have artefacts to help augment being a dragon on its own. We do want to be careful here, as there are two major artefacts (three it you count diadem, but to be fair, that helps everybody) that help incantation, whereas only one (I think) helps gut. But I think a good balance could be found.

    I'm also curious if allowing major traits in dragonform would be a consideration? I have less opinion on this, as while I think it would be awesome, I know this has 310830180318 more combat implications. Feel free to voice opinion, I'm curious what both the admin and players think on this!

    Also, a thank you to the admin for listening to your players. I know we are an absolutely rambunctious and complain-y group sometimes, but it is good to see things being heard, considered, and new changes being pushed forth (rather quickly, too).

               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Too late to edit the post, but I also want to add that serpent (assuming a good whip and dex spec) still has better offence than dragon. Garrote might need some adjusting, unless it was already changed and just wasn't announced (or it was included with the weaponry/DSL changes).

    Daeir
  • TriakTriak Member Posts: 594 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2014

    With level 3 collar and sash and diadem my incantation was doing 1062 at 3.5 eq.

    Sena
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Still having trouble with the stat formula, need to see gut at 20-22 str and/or incantation at 19 int.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, no luck figuring out the formula (it doesn't have diminishing returns or increasing returns (or it has both, depending on how you look at it); with gut you get +49, +44, +48, +41 from 18 to 19, 19 to 20, 20 to 21, and 21 to 22 respectively), but I have most of the stats covered anyways, which is all you really need.

    Gut
    18: 760
    19: 809
    20: 853
    21: 901
    22: 942

    Incantation
    18: 754
    19: 806
    20: 855
    21: ?
    22: 946

    So, incantation with diadem and L3 collar is about equal to gut at any stat point. The fact that there's no jera equivalent for int means gut still has a slight advantage though.
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Arador said:

    Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

    Incantation is somewhat worse because of overkill (for example, some damage might be wasted because you only needed half of it to finish the denizen, so you're always getting the slower speed but not always benefiting from the higher damage), faster attacks have better crit distribution (faster, weaker attacks mean more consistent damage, rather than less frequent bursts that, again, probably waste a lot on overkill), and because faster attacks are better defensively (don't have to wait as long to run if things get bad), but it's not weaker in terms of damage over time (since it's ~20% slower and ~20% stronger, making it about equal).

  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    Arador said:

    Those half a second pieces add up over bashing time though so even if the damage is about equal, the speed makes it weaker.

    Incantation is somewhat worse because of overkill (for example, some damage might be wasted because you only needed half of it to finish the denizen, so you're always getting the slower speed but not always benefiting from the higher damage), faster attacks have better crit distribution (faster, weaker attacks mean more consistent damage, rather than less frequent bursts that, again, probably waste a lot on overkill), and because faster attacks are better defensively (don't have to wait as long to run if things get bad), but it's not weaker in terms of damage over time (since it's ~20% slower and ~20% stronger, making it about equal).

    Are those numbers you posted the full damage potential, or without the collar? I read them as including the collar which puts them at the same damage as gut but without the speed. 


    If they are without the collar, then I see what you mean. 

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    The numbers I posted are without the collar.

  • VortokVortok Member Posts: 9 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited July 2014
    Sena said:


    Blast is still 600 damage. I only just learned that blast goes through/breaks denizen shields though, so it actually is useful despite the low damage (I'm guessing most dragons already knew that?).



    Gut is 40 Endurance (Incantation is 40 Willpower, 150 mana).  Summon is 100 Endurance (and 300 mana) and Blast is 100 Endurance, so it's a 40 vs 200 Endurance question to use a weaker attack (that, against most decent strength and stronger enemies won't even finish them without a crit or better) instead of just waiting for them to drop their shield and just using Gut/Incantation.

    Blast is not nearly as sustainable to spam for longterm bashing as Gut is (alternating Blast and Incantation might be a thing if the damage numbers were attractive - would still be a higher Endurance cost than pure Gut usage, though).  Blast remaining significantly weaker in damage feels like it may be an oversight.  That it seems to be unaffected by artefacts could possibly even warrant setting the damage just a tad higher than baseline Gut/Incantation (say 800 or so, similar to a Gut with just a Jera boosting it) which would also give it more 'finisher' oomph.  Maybe they just have a different vision of Blast's role when it comes to bashing, though.

    It really is a pretty minor quibble, though.


    Gut and Incantion will likely never be completely equal, especially because the methods of boosting them are different (Diadem/Collar vs Jera).  Being of similar strength means Incantation will still be useful, even if just to mix in a bit with Gut for characters with Will based lesserform classes who aren't equipped for suddenly becoming an Endurance based bashing class that they'd be if they used purely Gut and Blast.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Blast goes through shields, apparently. Off the top of my head, only razeslash imitates that functionality in any form - everyone else has to strip the shields first or wait for the denizen's next attack tick.

    It basically appears to be a very, very strong version of a shield-breaking ability.
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkMember Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Bards got a voicecraft ability that strips shields too (I loved having that ember while I was bashing, ohh yes)

    image
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,935 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    It doesn't break shield, just goes through it. Also, incantation can be done with two broken arms. I'm not sure if it ignores any other afflictions, but that made it amazing against scorpions in Underworld. Good to take into consideration - it might not be intended as a primary attack.

     i'm a rebel

    Veldrin
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Incantation is indeed very slightly worse than gut when all relevant arties are accounted for, but as others have pointed out, has small advantages in other places.

    I think one of the other advantages of gut/incantation is that unlike other classes, when your willpower/endurance runs out, you can switch to an attack that uses the other one. 

    SenaShirszaeUtianimaArador
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tesha said:

    It doesn't break shield, just goes through it. Also, incantation can be done with two broken arms. I'm not sure if it ignores any other afflictions, but that made it amazing against scorpions in Underworld. Good to take into consideration - it might not be intended as a primary attack.

    I generally just stopped curing legs (unless it was a DK + multiple scorpions) and carried on using Gut to kill scorpions; much faster and made it easier to keep ahead of afflictions if there was three or four in a room since you could actually outrift. With the numbers on Incantation being slightly closer, it might be worth it.

    Arador
  • TraelorTraelor Columbia, SCMember Posts: 70 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sarapis said:


    I think one of the other advantages of gut/incantation is that unlike other classes, when your willpower/endurance runs out, you can switch to an attack that uses the other one. 

    I like this fact a lot. I think we've been so used to Dragon simply being OP that we've kind of glossed over the awesome utility built into the class.

    Traelor - Saving the day since 594

    Arador
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have always done that when endurance ran out, especially after I got my diadem. Sure it was not as good but it was better than sleeping. Also, agree on the arms thing. I do not understand why people always prio legs over arms when not prone. or if not fighting something that you need to run from.

    Even in its weaker mode now, Dragon hunting still has awesome advantages. I can bash a little bit faster in lesser but when walking in on a large group, dragon does not even blink where in lesser it can be hairy.

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