Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Comments
I'm not certain which period they designed ships off of, but I'm going to reference 18th century:
Windcutter would be comparable to a Clipper or Schooner, as it's build for speed above all else, including offensive capabilities.
Seastrider would be comparable to a Brig or a Frigate.
War Galley would be comparable to a Galleon or a Man-of-War
In regards to ships and sailing in general, I think one of the biggest obstacles to overcome is spicing up the experience. Sailing can be a big snoozefest if you're not the one doing the sailing, and are just waiting for something to happen, which I think is a big deterrent. If things happened on board the ship such as weapons taking slight damage during travel and requiring repair, or some other things that require people to actually have something to do, that would help a lot. I set my crew up to work helm and have someone work repairs, but it's not always enough when 90% of the trip is just sailing around with little to do.
Ships are great for privacy, but that level of security can also often be abused. Perhaps let ships not docked in man-made harbours be targeted in the harbour? These aren't man-made harbours, so there'd be no practical defenses one would expect to encounter. Could also make it to where anyone can board a ship so long as ladders/plank is down, but Crew perms need to be set to use ship equipment. I like the potential privacy ships offer, but not at the sacrifice of people being to sit there and no one can get to them.
Better ship logs would be great.
Some system of automated sea creatures, where they act as roaming denizens that pop up and either go after vessels or wander around idly until attacked, then disappear after a time if not attack or enough distance is put between them. This alone would make everyday sailing more interesting, as you'd always have a chance to run into something and have to identify whether it hostile or not and whether you can just slip by it, or if you want to just go straight for it. Encountering even one of these during a trip would keep player based crew excited and attentive.
The ability to transfer cargo between ships, as well as raid ships to plunder cargo would be amazing and open a lot for seafaring conflict.
Open up trade deals to other ports besides Tasur'ke and Thraasi. What if Mysia wants a shipment of barley, or Clockwork a shipment of metal? There's plenty of things each island could want and have reason to pay someone to bring it to them. This would also open up a lot more shipping routes and keep would be pirates working hard to track down new targets.
Randomized quips from ship denizen crew based on certain event lines that take place, from taking damage, to sighting a ship, to any number of randomized one-liners would bring a new level of experience and humour to sailing.
That's all I can think of right now, running on no sleep and just skimming previous pages. Maybe more to come later.
Ships are fun, yes yes.
Fishing, Exploring, Fun Fun
Kinilan sunk me
I am very, very new and unlearned in the ways of sailing. I took my first trip by myself to Zanzibaar and to go fishing the other night and it was very enjoyable. What I am imagining various many people do not enjoy is that it feels quite like treacherous planes. (Maybe it is, I've never seen any help files that said it was or was not, but making that point clear might not be a bad idea) I treat it as if it is, and 100% of the time I was out I was expecting to be sunk. It took me a really long time to muster up the courage to even go at all. I think it's actually more stressful than somewhere like treacherous planes because not only do you die (whatever, that's no big deal tbh, I die all the time anyways.) but obviously, as has been stated throughout the thread, the loss is far more than death. It's a lot of gold/cargo/whatever else, I think, perhaps, that turns a lot of people off that would otherwise be intrigued to learn. The fact that pirates can come sink you adds an air of excitement and thrill to it and I actually like that, but I just see people feel gutted over and over at the loss of that much gold, and then they are nervous to go back out on their ship for a long while afterwards. Sailing is definitely a rich man's game and that might just be the way it is going to stay, and that's fine, but it will certainly prevent a great lump sum of players from engaging.
One other thing I'd personally like is for the AB SEAFARING layout to be a little less clumped up and to be divided into actual specialisations. It's not a huge deal, but the lack of orderliness/outline makes me cringe.
The only gold loss is the cost of having the ship salvaged (which could be free if you can find another player to do it) and replacing lost crew. You'll lose cargo if you're currently trading, but if you're just fishing, diving, visiting an island, etc. you shouldn't be carrying around any trade goods.
The biggest loss from a sunk ship, if you aren't trading, is the loss of crew experience (although it's not guaranteed that you'll lose any crew), which generally takes more time to gain back than your own experience.
I've had my ship sink before, and the total cost added up to 0 2500 gold (Edit: Forgot to count the cost of the crew tokens), 0 crew experience, and about ten minutes of work.
I've been learning a ton recently. Saeva should um, talk to halios about it. Nudge.
It depends on where you are sunk, ultimately. I've heard of salvage costing anywhere from a few thousand gold to ten or twenty thousand gold . And not everyone has a friend who can salvage. It's not necessarily a matter of the mechanics existing to make it cheaper, it's more a matter of the mechanics being inviting so that more people want to join in on the sea. Which is what seemed like the theme of this thread is. Pointing out perks and flaws of the mechanics to improve them for an overall boosted desire of joining in on seafaring. I'm not stating that every case is the same or that loss is always high, really. Simply that often times you stand to lose a lot and that's something not a lot of players are willing join in on. That's not even counting the thousands and thousands of gold that pirates will demand if they happen to RP with you before sinking you. It's simply expensive is all, in time and in gold.
I've been sunk twice, first time was about 50k + time loss (crew, replaced tokens mostly), while the second was much higher (lost more crew, tokens were pretty wrecked too, expensive to replace when you need 2 tokens per ship/crewmate). First time was pretty close to a harbour, second was between Sapience and Meropis and thus much more expensive. The food I cooked was freely provided, but getting crew replaced and tokens (tokens ugh) can be expensive.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
Sunk once. Cost 13k for salvage, plus replacing tokens, time to catch up lost crew experience and lost hold of final cargo to complete trade deal, so had to do the whole thing all over (10 hours or so of sailing).
Yes. It's costly. And while I don't think that's necessarily the apex of evil against sailing (it's worth it to many people), I think it's a large contributing factor to how many people never even dip their toe into that pond.
I suspect it's something many people build up in their minds as far worse than it really is, so they psych themselves out without ever trying. Same with PK and dying.
This is magnified if you're sailing a ship that isn't yours.
This. This is what I don't get. Every ship I've ever used was either owened by someone else or an org and that has never held me back.
# Y O L O B O Y S
...I'm going to sink you again.
I think it's worth pointing out that sinking a ship can cost around 40,000 in ammo. Now that varries depending on things like how many shots miss and how many shots you have to take, dipped ammo vs undipped. It can cost much more, or much less.
Racks cut down on that cost quite a bit, after the initial 200 credit price tag per rack.
And that's after the almost 6.5 million gold it takes to buy, outfit and crew a Strider.
Not so silly when you consider that a solid majority of ships out there are Windcutters. Undercrewed and unarmed. The cost is clearly an issue since so many people would rather not make the investment and be defenceless.
That's the point here. There is a cost to getting sunk, there is also a cost to sinking a ship which can vary within a similar range and the ability to do so comes with a much higher cost. So if you want more people to be involved in that sort of thing and the prices for such is too high then the cost of sinking a ship (and the lack of rewards) should be looked at in the same light as the cost of being sunk and the cost to get started in seafaring.
I don't really think it's a matter of cost though. Targossas, Cyrene and Hashan have armed Striders. The costs have been paid the ships are setup and the orgs have deep enough pockets to pay for wages, damages if sunk and the gold for ammo or the credits to pay for racks. You can't say cost is an issue for them. And yet their ships never get used. At least not in a combat fashion. I've been told Cyrene has rules against using their armed strider to fight (what?) and In Targossas I've been told nobody ever responds for a call to head to to sea. Even when there is a ship parked outside Targossas ready to fight, no searching involved. Hashan came out and fought Mhaldor once. We ran out of ammo and left and I never saw them again. No idea what their deal is. There are also houses with armed Striders that never use them and houses have even less to spend their gold and credits on and have comprable bank accounts to cities.
No I don't buy that cost is a large factor in why people don't get involved in seafaring or ship combat. Silly rules that hold people back and a lack of rewards are the real culprits here.
I think we'll just disagree on that part.
For me and in regards to my personal ship, it was a mixture of considering both cost and rewards of ship combat. I nearly purchased a thrower for my windcutter (I know, this wasn't going to be a solo gun slinging battle ship by any means, but just go with it) until I learned about the real costs of weapons and their upkeep/use. Long story short, it isn't just a one-time up-front cost. And of course the ammo, as Kinilan mentioned, it gets pretty expensive.
So I thought to myself, "Now if I go and buy this really expensive stuff, what is the return?" For a windcutter, the answer is not much of anything. I'm not going to be able to be offensive enough to take down another ship (except maybe an AFK fisherman), nor is a single weapon going to be that helpful in defending myself either. There would just be the continual heavy cost of maintenance and stocking ammo. Now weapon(s) do show more value on a strider or galley since you will have the firepower to bring down another vessel, but again, there's no return on the money you spent on weapons/ammo unless you can convince the person you are sinking it will be better if they pay you instead of just letting their ship drop to the ocean floor.
Proposed solution: I support what was mentioned earlier about ocean NPC's. Maybe there are triton ships you can fight against (which makes them aggressive towards you next time) or maybe there's a sea monster which, if killed, can be brought to a major port for a payout. Make these NPCs range from easy/difficult so you don't always need a full crew or strider/galley to go fight something. Divide up experience to players aboard the ship when something has been killed/sunk. Essentially, give ships a bashing system. If the return on investment is good, not only does it give people a reason to get out on a ship but it gives people a reason to equip and get familiar with weapons.
Yeah, ship combat is really its own reward, and it's absurdly expensive to reach a point where you can participate (6.5-7m+ for an equipped strider, plus upkeep). A ship is not going to pay for itself in actual, fluid currency returns any time soon.
I think people instinctively realize it's possibly dangerous territory, and are reticent to use the assets. Then you have the people who do things like get a ship sunk and don't take care of the damage, or at least fully document and account for it...
Things can spin out of control fast, even if you've absolutely poured money into the ships out of your own pocket, the ships are in better shape now than they were before (shipshape even), and your captain managed to get the ship to harbour (where everyone died gloriously).
I've been around just enough to take care of the ships lately, and not super tuned into political maneuverings anyway. As such, I walked into not just one, but probably at least two power struggle/infighting/god knows what else thingies in giving the go-ahead to take a ship out to try to give chase to pirates, with full crew from Mariner's, and that's with an understanding that we do have these assets expressly to learn how to kill pirates, and to actually kill pirates if possible (we do still have those sailing orders, and that was re-confirmed, which is good).
It all got worked out (mostly) and I have to go back to school soon anyway, but it was a major buzzkill to what had been an exciting experience. I have my own Strider, but it was on the wrong coast for this target of opportunity. By the way, that's the craziest thing about ships - you really do need access to a *fleet* to be effective.
Honestly thinking about quitting the game again, even though I just came back. The sea was one of the big reasons I decided to come back, after having retired my old character for being griefed into oblivion by Ashtani. I wanted to come back to the game and just enjoy the roleplay with the main goal in mind to get into seafaring and already have sunk and killed on my first voyage. By Ashtani. Apparently the sea is full pk even though I don't see that in HELP PK or HELP PLANES. Not even an attempt at any RP from the attacking party, just mindless killing. Anyone have any saving grace to this? I don't want to be a good combatant or even attempt it, and the only reason I came back was to join a non-affiliated group just so I wouldn't be forced into more PK, and spend my time doing creative stuff. I'm sure this is gonna come off as whiny to some but I just want to be able to enjoy the game, not constantly have my time wasted for people that get some sick enjoyment out of it.
You're fine, Katharos. Even those of us who feel the seas would be pretty boring without pirates are pretty torn about it when it comes right down to the reality of being sunk. Is it awesome, or just an (expensive) pain in the ass? But yeah, the seas are definitely all about PK and ship warfare. You should be able to do your thing as a Cyrenian in general though.
There's a ton of content in this game for you. Buttloads of it. Metric fucktons of it.
But if you don't want to attempt PVP, don't be surprised when you're locked out of some content. Part of what makes Achaea so immense is that you're forced to adapt to obstacles to advance, and some of those obstacles force you to PVP.
And enjoying PVP isn't sick. If you don't want to be accused of being whiny, don't insist that others have an inferior way of playing the game.
Again, there's certain content that's locked out if you decide to (aggressively) not PVP. You tried to access that content anyway. You got dumpstered. You can either choose to adapt or do something else.
Nut up, Buttercup.
I think the idea behind pirates is good, but the system is inherently flawed, especially in regards to how the ocean is open PK (or supposedly at least) and thus forceboarding making it all the worse. I don't have fun sailing anymore - I'm consistently nervous and stressed and it's just not a part of the game that I enjoyed as I once did (rip Neraeos). I know Taraus tries her best to make it interesting despite the inherit negative interaction pirating always is, but with the way the general attitude goes plus Hirst treating sailing as his personal PKing playtoy, it's just more negative than positive now.
I truly hope these ship ideas are looked at sooner rather than later. I have some very good sailing (both on the peaceful and conflict sides of things) memories, but it's just not worth the stress anymore.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
I say that because I think we have far more people at any given moment, and access to enough armed Striders to make the seas a living hell for pirates who are far better warriors than we'd probably ever be, but who would simply be incredibly outmanned and outgunned. I think we could pretty much lock down Tasur'ke and Thraasi, if we were really serious about it - like say, when a Mayan Crown deal came out, Mariner's and Co. could blockade the ports.
I realize how pie in the sky it sounds, but I think it's something we might be able to get away with, because ship combat doesn't even seem to be remotely as complicated as land combat - with that all-important caveat that you prevent that force-boarding by combatants who are hands down better than our guys are going to be at any "real" combat.
I hope we at least give it a *real* try before we ask for such sweeping changes to sailing rules. I am totally with you on my feelings about pirates, and being sunk in general,