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Honors Mobs (Relic Holders)

NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
As the lowering of damage comes, the lowering of damage across the board should also come. There are a few of these mobs that could wipe a 40-man raid on them (Looking at you Grandmaster of the Quisalis) with the obvious possibility of teaming up city + city + city being one option. Can we come up with maybe an option to make some of these guys a little less impossible. We just don't seem to have the numbers to attempt some of these fights. Others are still too easy as well. I wouldn't mind making the majority of them like Oghulor/Rakia where there needs to be some ritual performed for weakening them and summoning them takes a toll as well and then a race to get the relic before others take it.

Grandmaster of the Quisalis - Rolls face on keyboard, could probably still win 40 v 1.

Ugrach - can 2 shot me at 9.5k hp in dragonform. Last time we attempted this we were able to just brazier tag and kill him.

Jeramun - can kill him with braziers and almost never getting hit. This guy is fairly easy if you know where to go/what to do.

Yutkha - see Jeramun

Yudhi - N/A (Haven't attempted this one yet

I'm all for making honors mobs harder, but you can't really expect your average participant to want to join up on a group that is probably going to wipe 5-10 times for a relic that they will never possess and don't want. You either need to make these guys more manageable in smaller group settings or make this thing like WoW and remove xp loss when dying to them.

Just my two cents, agree or disagree as you see fit. Also if anyone could please add how Yudhi is to handle that would be great..haven't attempted him yet for obvious RP reasons we just got done defending him.
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Comments

  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,456 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Weren't honors mobs buffed to prevent Dragons soloing them (then buffed even more to dissuade the round-the-clock group-bashing that players like Veldrin were famous for)? It was fine because killing them was still a major achievement, but not entirely unmanageable because you could just make sure your group of a 12 dragons was artied.

    Dragons don't hit as hard now. Seems fair to scale back their god-like toughness in some creative way. Basically do a Belladona on them.

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean

    Fully agree. Make these mobs easier so Eleusis bash-group can reliably kill them and sit behind 2 closed doors underneath Eleusian barracks indefinitely holding the relics that supposedly reset. GG

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    NyderrasethiMizikJhui
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Maybe they should be mitigated a little, but honestly they should be ridiculous. Relics are not necessary to do anything, and if the honors are holding them it's just a nice benefit to killing the honors.

    People got groups together to kill honors like Yudhi (who can't be 'cheese' killed) prior because they wanted the chance at the honors lines and the experience, while you died a lot, was fun. Only one person got the wings then, but it still happened somewhat regularly.

    Stop treating relics like they -have- to be obtained, and treat them as they are, a bonus.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    KyrraAegothAlucianaMishgul
  • NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jarrod said:

    Maybe they should be mitigated a little, but honestly they should be ridiculous. Relics are not necessary to do anything, and if the honors are holding them it's just a nice benefit to killing the honors.

    People got groups together to kill honors like Yudhi (who can't be 'cheese' killed) prior because they wanted the chance at the honors lines and the experience, while you died a lot, was fun. Only one person got the wings then, but it still happened somewhat regularly.

    Stop treating relics like they -have- to be obtained, and treat them as they are, a bonus.

    While I agree they shouldn't be laughably easy, for obvious reasons. They shouldn't be so hard that 15+ dragons are required to slay them. How often does anyone have 15+ dragons around anyways? I'm hoping there is a way we can do this without having to reform old alliances like Mhaldor+Ashtan and Targossas+Eleusis+Cyrene. Which I think everyone can agree shouldn't happen anyways. 

    ErnamJhaeli
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    They've all been killable, except for extreme circumstances like Ugrach, by groups of 5-7 dragons, even easier if a couple of them are artied dragons, or have favours from hunting prior.

    Ugrach is his own special case of ridiculous, and the fact that he was recently, or still is, brazier bashable is in a really bad need of a fix. He should require a huge group that's willing to die a lot, because he's the strongest honors and has by far the most powerful pet in the game in a small group setting.

    I don't think any of them require that many people if they're coordinated and rotate aggro properly (this is a big thing that people mess up vs honors).

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Nyderrasethi
  • NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jarrod said:

    They've all been killable, except for extreme circumstances like Ugrach, by groups of 5-7 dragons, even easier if a couple of them are artied dragons, or have favours from hunting prior.

    Ugrach is his own special case of ridiculous, and the fact that he was recently, or still is, brazier bashable is in a really bad need of a fix. He should require a huge group that's willing to die a lot, because he's the strongest honors and has by far the most powerful pet in the game in a small group setting.

    I don't think any of them require that many people if they're coordinated and rotate aggro properly (this is a big thing that people mess up vs honors).

    With the AoE room damage some of them do though you can't switch aggro like you used to be able to do. Quisalis Master in particular wiped Myself, @Rom, and @Iakimen within seconds of me hitting her, before balance came back. Not really able to do anything here even with large amounts of Dragons you'd essentially have to kill it on the first hit or everyone is dead before they regain balance.

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Ever think maybe you're not supposed to just walk up to the Grandmaster of the Quisalis and mash your bashing macro?


    EilonaStrataSarapis
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean

    How do you guys suggest to kill them?

  • HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean

    How do you guys suggest to kill them?

    Very carefully.


  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We came up with this cool idea with the 3 of us and if Hasar wasn't such a noob we could kill any of the honours mobs.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Pretty sure since novices can't die, you could just make a level 7 alt or whatever any time you need to get the relics. I'm not saying you should actually do this - I'm just throwing it out there so we can all laugh when Eleusis starts actually doing it.

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    NyderrasethiPraxides
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,148 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Strata said:
    Pretty sure since novices can't die, you could just make a level 7 alt or whatever any time you need to get the relics. I'm not saying you should actually do this - I'm just throwing it out there so we can all laugh when Eleusis starts actually doing it.

    Fairykiller lives again!


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Strata
  • NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Please leave this for discussion and not trolling. Thanks, insightful opinions are welcome, quips in an attempt to take shots at people or organizations are not welcome.

    ShirszaeTharvis
  • NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kinilan said:

    Ever think maybe you're not supposed to just walk up to the Grandmaster of the Quisalis and mash your bashing macro?


    I think I made that quite clear in my previous posts.

    I agree they shouldn't be laughably easy, for obvious reasons. 

    Others are still too easy as well.
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kinilan said:

    Ever think maybe you're not supposed to just walk up to the Grandmaster of the Quisalis and mash your bashing macro?


    I think I made that quite clear in my previous posts.

    I agree they shouldn't be laughably easy, for obvious reasons. 

    Others are still too easy as well.

    Just because you tried something doesn't mean you tried the right thing.

  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean

    such a constructive thread. 

  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    What else is there to do besides the bashing macro? Have someone on standby with a "get me the fuck out of the room" ability? 

    Not that I've been involved with this Relic stuff at all, but if the high end bashing is so radically different from normal bashing that it takes a multitude of deaths to figure out how it works... how exactly is it worth it? 

    Hate when people get all condescending over this stuff, because we're trained from level 5 to level 99 that if something kills you while bashing, then you're just not tanky enough yet, try again when you get some more levels/health. Having bashing "tactics" is such a radically different idea, that who's going to even assume such exists, over the normal "You're just not tanky enough/not enough people/not enough arties"?

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    MelodiePraxidesJhaeli
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    HELP QUEST

    There is more to do besides hit things. Not my fault if you can't see that.

    Jacen
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    To be honest, some of the tactics to beat some of the honors mobs take a lot of time and effort to figure out, and to me they qualify as quest-level discovery of tactics.

    Pardon us for not wanting to give away every secret on how to beat things with high-value returns.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Kinilan
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    I just think it's a bit asinine to belittle someone for thinking that a mob is too strong when they can't defeat it, since that's exactly what we're trained to believe throughout the game. The mobs that are immortal until some sort of quest is completed only hit you for a laughable amount of hp, so it becomes fairly obvious that they are immortal and you're missing a step, or that they can't be killed at all.

    Its also not surprising when Ashtan (who could probably rustle up 15 dragons on demand) can defeat a mob while Eleusis ( who can probably rustle up 5 dragons on demand) can't.

    ETA: Not to say that this is happening, of course, but this is the assumption that people will make. I'm not trying to downplay Ashtan's strategic skills, but if Jhui was seen on deathsight defeating a bi-trans player, you're going to assume that Jhui's resources (arties, abilities, staff) is what allowed him to do so, not some epic strategy.

    Its perfectly fine that its requires some tactics to defeat some mobs, and I guess its reasonable that you want to keep those tactics a secret, but its pretty much the definition of insanity to expect someone to come to the correct conclusion, when every other mob they've faced has either been defeated by the F2 key, or is beyond their level of tankiness.

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  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Jacen said:

    I just think it's a bit asinine to belittle someone for thinking that a mob is too strong when they can't defeat it, since that's exactly what we're trained to believe throughout the game. The mobs that are immortal until some sort of quest is completed only hit you for a laughable amount of hp, so it becomes fairly obvious that they are immortal and you're missing a step, or that they can't be killed at all.

    Its also not surprising when Ashtan (who could probably rustle up 15 dragons on demand) can defeat a mob while Eleusis ( who can probably rustle up 5 dragons on demand) can't.

    Its perfectly fine that its requires some tactics to defeat some mobs, and I guess its reasonable that you want to keep those tactics a secret, but its pretty much the definition of insanity to expect someone to come to the correct conclusion, when every other mob they've faced has either been defeated by the F2 key, or is beyond their level of tankiness.

    Belladona is one of the oldest honours mobs and has an attached quest to make her easier to kill.


  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jacen said:

    Its also not surprising when Ashtan (who could probably rustle up 15 dragons on demand) can defeat a mob while Eleusis ( who can probably rustle up 5 dragons on demand) can't.

    This is not entirely accurate. There are far more Eleusian dragons and their group bashing presence is much higher than Ashtan's. It might be easier for Ashtan to rustle up 15 decently artied dragons for certain special events once in a great while, but we don't regularly assemble large groups of dragons to go group bashing like Eleusis does.

    What @Jarrod is saying can be confirmed by the most recent Reckoning event when we started killing Oughlor. It took a couple days, but we figured out a way to kill the giant much easier and faster than Targossas/Eleusis. Their approach throughout the whole thing had been "We just need more people. We need more people. More people." while Ashtan was killing Oughlor with relative ease with only 2-3 dragons. (And don't make the "but you're artied" excuse. It had really nothing to do with arties.)

    Killing high level honors mobs should be difficult if not impossible to accomplish with high numbers. They should require intelligent well-planned coordinated effort, not "We just need X amount of dragons to hit their bashing macro at the same time and we win."

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  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,881 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Doppleganger priestess with heat isn't the pinnacle of complex strategies.

    I'm guessing that's how a handful of the honors mobs are killed, but that's something available only to Ashtan. I would be surprised if Ashtan figured out a quest for all of the honors mobs; a few is plausible, but doppleganger priestess seems much more likely. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

     i'm a rebel

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oughlor was a great example. After we'd figured it out we did a late night run with 4 dragons and an alchy hanging back to rez. We had a plan beyond "Hit him a whole lot". everyone did their job and the alchy just stood there. I think Hirst starbursted and that was it.



    Strata
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean

    Kinilan said:
    Oughlor was a great example. After we'd figured it out we did a late night run with 4 dragons and an alchy hanging back to rez. We had a plan beyond "Hit him a whole lot". everyone did their job and the alchy just stood there. I think Hirst starbursted and that was it.

    Oh and we even did it without using lame gimmicks like a certain someone is hard-wired to! Woot!

    image
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,397 Achaean staff
    @Mishgul The goal is to make high-level bashing named mobs require more tactical approaches in general, though that's never going to be extended to mobs in the game in general.

    MishgulTharvisJhaeli
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's fine, as long as their is some variety in it and gives us more things to do as players in groups, and gives people more important roles when hunting in groups. Bashing generally is quite one dimensional and I am glad that there are steps being taken to change that at a high level.  

    It might also be cool to have such things in Minia/Lodi/Gheladan or in some midbie bashing area where groups of level 10s or groups of level 60s can also try and partake in some tactical mob killing to get them into it. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    TharvisJhaeli
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,731 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kinilan said:
    Jacen said:

    I just think it's a bit asinine to belittle someone for thinking that a mob is too strong when they can't defeat it, since that's exactly what we're trained to believe throughout the game. The mobs that are immortal until some sort of quest is completed only hit you for a laughable amount of hp, so it becomes fairly obvious that they are immortal and you're missing a step, or that they can't be killed at all.

    Its also not surprising when Ashtan (who could probably rustle up 15 dragons on demand) can defeat a mob while Eleusis ( who can probably rustle up 5 dragons on demand) can't.

    Its perfectly fine that its requires some tactics to defeat some mobs, and I guess its reasonable that you want to keep those tactics a secret, but its pretty much the definition of insanity to expect someone to come to the correct conclusion, when every other mob they've faced has either been defeated by the F2 key, or is beyond their level of tankiness.

    Belladona is one of the oldest honours mobs and has an attached quest to make her easier to kill.


    Yet she was (is?) still pretty trivially killable by getting some dragons who just mashed their bashing macro/enter key without doing the quest.

    Strata
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