Ships in Harbors Are Too Safe

Naverre

So, it's always been a pet peeve of mine. People running onto ships with strict boarding rights and treating them as unassailable fortresses (because essentially, they are). As long as it's docked, you can board it and be perfectly, absolutely safe from anything. Before, it was a pain just because someone with a ship could run there and not get stolen from/killed by a mark/killed by someone just flat angry/etc. Maybe it's just my New Eden mentality of nothing should ever be completely safe to do. But I've bitten my tongue: obviously, the admins let this sort of behavior go on (why then, can we not enter a journal to escape being attacked? Isn't it just a more expensive version of that? But no, no complaining, Naverre, just let it go), so we must live with it. Working as intended.

Now, we have Targossas, holding the impious sceptre aboard a ship and safe from any attempts to take it. Which is, in my humble opinion, completely against the spirit of Reckoning. Hell, what's-her-name even said it "couldn't be stored", so it was never meant to be completely beyond the reach of the other side like it is. They can keep this up for the entire five months that it's in their position, and even if team Ice wins the trial, they'll likely pull the same crap (no, it's not fair when the other side does it, either, I'm not really a hypocrite. Most of the time. Really).  And so the sceptre will, on the final day before the assessment, be on the side of whoever happens to hold it, purely by virtue of the fact that it's on their ship, and there's nothing the other side can do about it. Again. Because, ships.

Call this the proverbial straw.

What I want to see is this: a way to attack a ship, or a person on a ship, that's docked in a harbor. Obviously the moment they take it out to sea, they're at risk. And if the disembark, they're at risk. It's that sweet spot in between that's ripe for new mechanics. How about, if a ship has someone on it, it can be forceboarded? Perhaps it could be fired on from near the harbor at sea, and if the hull reaches a certain threshold, each shot starts doing ridiculous damage to people on board? Maybe create some antipersonnel weapons and ammo specifically for this task that won't harm the hull but only people on board, regardless of their positioning on or in the ship? Another gold sink for those ship captains, they must be swimming in it.

I don't really care what you come up with, just as long as it's fixed. I guarantee you, I absolutely guarantee you, if the holder of the sceptre hopped into a journal in order to keep it from being stolen, he/she would be shrubbed so fast their leafy heads would spin. If it doesn't specifically violate HELP HONOUR, it sure as hell violates the spirit of it.

Edit: Grammar, you a treacherous fiend.

Lacertix

Hm... for the event items, I would suppose a fix could be to have it reset similar to how egghunts work. (Eggs disappear when you enter a city/ship/indoors in some egghunts). I suppose entering cities should be fine, but having it disappear when you board a ship with it seems alright with me.

Generally allowing ships to be boarded/attacked while docked seems to be a surefire way to endorse all kinds of trolling. From boarding/crew murdering to sinking docked ships for laughs, there is just too much potential for abuse in my opinion.

Daslin

If it was -anyone- else doing it, you'd be raising all kinds of hell, @Daeir. You know it's ridiculous. Hide in a temple or something where you can be gotten to, -if- the people decide to fight through tons of guards/players/things

Daslin

So basically, you're just saying you're scared. Honestly, I bet that if others were to get hands on it, they'd be a -little- more trusting. Then again, this playerbase isn't super. Anyways, get off the ship, stop being a pussy, the end.

EDIT: According to a few sources. Someone held onto the facet on the mainland(not on a ship, not hiding off in a Temple or Househall) for five hours or some shit. So... no, no. It won't be taken to a ship or some shit. Your argument is now invalid. Shall I post the picture of a cat pushing a watermelon into a lake?

Daslin

Lol. It's a -shit- mindset Daeir. Fucking lead by example.

Kyrra

Saying that someone else would be doing it if you weren't, so that's okay is just bullshit.

Santar

This is an event design problem, not a ship problem. There's always ways to avoid other players in Achaea.

Even if ships were removed I'd personally still have several ways to make myself immune to attack.

Smart thing would've been to design the event around these already known game mechanics.

Aerek

Daslin said:

Lol. It's a -shit- mindset Daeir. Fucking lead by example.

While I'm always a fan of leading by example, and would love it if we could simply trust everyone not to abuse questionable game mechanics, one cannot deny that things get fixed quickest when they are clearly and openly abused. This event runs for a month, and even if folks have been willing to risk losing the scepter so far, you're crazy if you think the scepter wasn't going to be hidden away on ships as we approach the end of the contest, when a few facets might seal a win for either side. Best to work the kinks out in the beginning so it doesn't become a problem in the end.

Daslin

@Aerek Yeah, I get that, but you know what -could- be done... Oh, I dunno... emails, forum posts, bugs in-game while still playing the fucking game in a manner that isn't lame as fuck.

Blujixapug

This is how every item-centric event ever has been played, so it was predictable. You get the item and you hole up in the safest place you can find. Before ships, it was guildhalls, or saferooms, or temples, or Nirvana/Inferno, or wherever. It's shitty, but it's the natural way to play it. There are ways to build the event around it, from something as contrived as making the item be randomly teleported away if it's ever aboard a ship, to making it set the ship on fire/get iceberged and sunk killing everyone on board.

Outside the context of the event, ships are too safe. But they've been that way since implementation. If people weren't afking on ships, they'd go back to afking in journals or the newsroom.

Jovolo

Abusing something is the best way to fix a design flaw. Idk why the hating

Ernam

Everybody who is ripping on @Daeir for his actions is being ridiculous.  He is 100% correct that if he wasn't doing it, someone else would be. Not 80%, not 90%, 100%.  The only difference between him doing it and some Ashtani or Mhaldorian character is that we win, instead of lose.  Period.

@Santar is right though, this mechanic should have absolutely been foreseen and prevented, as should the other typical ways this can be abused.  If 15 years of easter egg hunts wasn't enough to teach us how the playerbase things and acts, I don't know what can.  Restrict the item to the mainland, have it reset on any kind of shenanigans whatsoever, to include wilderness, off planes, ships, beds, househalls, phasing/BW, and so on.  Personally I think it should "poof" on fast-travel too.

Since I am not around during peak hours, this event essentially doesn't exist to me, but I can definitely empathize.  Still confused as to why Targossas took the side of one of the most un-Creation-y characters in the entire game, though.

Kyrra

Neither Jarrod or I abused anything while holding the facet. Jarrod was around the mainland for 4-5 hours completely accessible.

Wei

Ernam said:

Still confused as to why Targossas took the side of one of the most un-Creation-y characters in the entire game, though.

How else would they be able to fight against the whole world?

Kyrra

I was willing to risk dying, as is point of being a high profile target. You guys are happy to sit on ships and not be part of the game. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Tohran

This is the most blatant form of abuse I've seen in a very long time. I do like @Blujixapug‌ 's idea that the ship should catch fire/iceburg, destroying said ship and sinking it. An item of such power would not lightly be contained. 

However, since I feel this way, I'm simply awaiting the admins or @Tecton‌ to say something like "You want it, wait til they take it to Haag in four days and take it. If they decide to do that." (Admins, always making the call that disagrees with my viewpoint *shakefist*) 

Seeing that the Targs were the first to do it @Daeir‌ I think it's been clearly stated, that if you weren't doing it someone else would, is a complete farce of a reason to pull what you're pulling. The sheer fact that you have the sceptre should be evidence enough of that. Hoping the repercussions for it are showy though, like Yudhi/Maklak/Haag/Hycanthus laying waste to the harbour you're docked at.

Blujixapug

It's not like ships are completely impervious. You need to kick it up a notch, and take some initiative from Eve. Infiltrate his facton and get boarding perms. Trojan his computer and get remote management perms to make him disembark. Have his mail redirected, or kidnap his cat or whatever, and hold it to ransom. Pretend to befriend him IRL, and convince him it would be totes awes to defect. Not sure if any of those are federal crimes, but just, you know, stop being a pussy and get on it. What Would Mitnick Do?

Kyrra

I didn't have people protecting or drfending me and that's still bullshit reasoning.

I never complained about dying. I didn't bitch in OOC clans, I never actually said anything it except I no longer have the facet. I find the generalisations to be insulting because -we- aren't pulling the same shit that you are at all. I didn't come to the forums and rant about being teamed, or the tactics used, or anything of the like.

Targossas in the one doing the bullshit because they choose to do so, and other people are not nor have not done the same. It's great that you're willing to abuse mechanics but leave the rest of us out of it.

Tohran

I just got enemied for asking Rangor to let me steal a totem from Targossas. Got enemied to the fire god guy too, D...whatever, doesn't matter. Now I have a reason to destroy shrines with @Aluciana‌. I'm about to make a pest of myself.

Klendathu

Here's a TL/DR for everyone else so they don't have to suffer reading this:

Someone from Targossas is doing something perceived as abusing a game mechanic to gain an advantage, justifying it by saying "You'd do it too if you had the chance". Everyone aligned to Targoassas agrees with and supports this justification. Everyone not aligned to Targossas disagrees with the justification.

Aerek

Daslin said:

@Aerek Yeah, I get that, but you know what -could- be done... Oh, I dunno... emails, forum posts, bugs in-game while still playing the fucking game in a manner that isn't lame as fuck.

The fact that ships are too impenetrable has been discussed in multiple forum threads, bugs, and classleads since their implementation. As you can see, it hasn't been addressed, yet. Perhaps now it will, since this is such a high-visibility case that has already gotten folks riled up.

Honestly, this is how big imbalances are found and changed. Puppetry Besot was changed after Manu destroyed the world with it. Sentinels' Axestun was changed after a few folks died to perma-stun. Tripblock was removed after Dakeyras killed everyone by just waiting for them to hit it and AXK'ing. Knights' Impale was investigated after Kenshiro's Raja balance and 250+ speed rapier was able to delph, impale, and DSB before you got balance back from attacking. Every one of these things had been called out, ranted about, and had fixes suggested dozens of times, but they never actually got changed until someone came along and just abused the hell out of them.

Yes, it's kind of a dickish thing to do, no, it doesn't win you many friends, but people need to stop acting like Daeir is the antichrist, here. Daeir is just the vehicle through which a long-standing problem is being showcased. If you don't like what's happening, then you should want to fix the actual problem instead of trying to shame Daeir for pointing out that there is a problem.

Daslin

Daeir -is- the antichrist.

Nemutaur

Ah well, we tried to guilt you off that ship by killing denizens and trying to raid Targossas. But nobody there means its a little hard to get a sanction started. Lets see what else we can come up with if the admins don't make the sceptre reset on boarding a docked ship.

I have no problem with an undocked ship being used, that way we could hunt it down and force board it.

Nemutaur

Daeir said:

Can't guilt a Caefir. Could have told you that.

I'm going to hate myself ICly for a while though.

I was hoping to kill enough citizens and telling them all it was your fault. But there weren't really many on so meh, next time I guess. I bet the issue gets addressed before we get to that point again.

Naverre

While there's been a lot of talk about the event and being abused with ships, I wish I'd heard more about ships outside of it. Like I said, this is only the most recent example of how horrible ships-in-harbors can be. When the event is over, outrage will go away except for the few of us who occasionally run into the people who hide in them, and even then it's only for the time we sit and wait for them to get out before moving onto more interesting things (so, like, an Achaean day, maybe).

@Blujixapug Man, I would totally AWOX their ass, but there's this pesky thing called HELP SECONDS that gets in the way, and while I look good in green, I'd prefer it not be a permanent thing. That's a whole other discussion on espionage and infiltration that we shouldn't start in this thread, because it's something that'll never get anywhere.

I still have fond memories of that one guy who infiltrated the Naga and kicked everyone out (this was back in the days of guilds, so it REALLY hurt). Can't remember his name, unfortunately. It didn't end well for him, though.

Tecton

Oh, we totally agree that it's not a great mechanic, and we're going to tweak things today. Consider this letting Targossas have a small evening of respite, since they're facing overwhelming odds here 

Blujixapug

iceberg iceberg iceberg

Kresslack

Not sure if @Daeir's posts got purged or he has me forum blocked....

Melodie

Definitely was some purging in this thread, missing a ton of posts.

Sarapis

Some people got flagged as trolls, meaning all their posts will now be hidden from others.

Some people seem to have forgotten forum rule #1: "Don't be a jerk."

Jules

Now the thread just has Ashtani telling Targossas "be more fucking hardcore brah".  Always missing the party, I am.