Bashing: denizens vs adventurers

Pek

Hello,

I have been playing Achaea for over a week now and have some thoughts I would like to air.

I recently made an Alchemist, because I thought messing around with humours and homunculi was great. I was disappointed that none of it worked on denizens, or NPCs.

I was further dismayed upon discovering that a large swathe of abilities across all classes can not be used on them. The supposed riches of Achaea's combat are not realised when bashing, which is becoming apparent to me that the term reflects the simplistic and rote approach to levelling.

Given that this game extols the virtues of keeping everything RP -- to the point of calling help files scrolls -- how can we justify holding back an arbitrary collection of skills from equal use on denizens, at the same time treating those same denizens as living, breathing things for the purposes of roleplay?

Sena

It's a necessary sacrifice, for practical reasons. Combat is extremely complex, and having every denizen capable of intelligently dealing with every attack would be nearly impossible, not to mention slowing down the entire game for everyone (that's a lot to process).

There may be some improvements coming (probably not any time soon), giving more variety in how you can attack denizens, but it will obviously never be as complex as fighting a human opponent.

Araeus

@pek Tecton has said before that there is very little similarity between denizen and adventurer coding, and that it would take a huge amount of work to get that to work.

Tecton

We're definitely wanted to increase the amount of abilities that work against denizens (even if it's in a rudimentary fashion), but there are no plans to allow full affliction combat against denizens at this time. As awesome as it would seem at first glance, it would most likely remove most/all of the difficulty from player vs. denizen combat if you could just have one person sitting there webbing Ugrach (or some other high-level honours denizen), or keeping him paralysed while your buddy wails away on him.

Caladbolg

Tecton said:

We're definitely wanted to increase more abilities to work against denizens (even if it's in a rudimentary fashion), but there are no plans to allow full affliction combat against denizens at this time. As awesome as it would seem at first glance, it would most likely remove most/all of the difficulty from player vs. denizen combat if you could just have one person sitting there webbing Ugrach (or some other high-level honours denizen), or keeping him paralysed while your buddy wails away on him.

Nub should've bought Buckawns.

Tecton

Caladbolg said:

Tecton said:

We're definitely wanted to increase more abilities to work against denizens (even if it's in a rudimentary fashion), but there are no plans to allow full affliction combat against denizens at this time. As awesome as it would seem at first glance, it would most likely remove most/all of the difficulty from player vs. denizen combat if you could just have one person sitting there webbing Ugrach (or some other high-level honours denizen), or keeping him paralysed while your buddy wails away on him.

Nub should've bought Buckawns.

I tried to tell him, but he was all "I'm the Lord of the Undead, B*tch".. what can you do?

Agrias

Tecton said:

Caladbolg said:

Tecton said:

We're definitely wanted to increase more abilities to work against denizens (even if it's in a rudimentary fashion), but there are no plans to allow full affliction combat against denizens at this time. As awesome as it would seem at first glance, it would most likely remove most/all of the difficulty from player vs. denizen combat if you could just have one person sitting there webbing Ugrach (or some other high-level honours denizen), or keeping him paralysed while your buddy wails away on him.

Nub should've bought Buckawns.

I tried to tell him, but he was all "I'm the Lord of the Undead, B*tch".. what can you do?

Delete him?

Pek

Thank you all for your replies. As I expected, afflictions would pose too much challenge for computer opponents, though I would like to note, with a good deal of facetiousness, that players are already using computers to manage this, in the form of 'reflexes'.

I understand many are happy with the way things are. That's OK. PvP is enjoyed by many. What I don't think is OK is not having it mentioned more broadly. I don't think a new player should have to go through the process of creating a new bard character to find out she she cannot befuddle a halfling woman with a haiku.

As it stands now, the game requires from me a suspension of disbelief I am not willing to maintain.

Agrias

Well, that's your choice. There are thousands of people that fully accept that it would be largely impossible to code things the way you are wanting.

A note about reflexes and client side curing:

It would fall down to a pattern with denizens. Afflicting them with A will make them cure with B, it would come down to a boring system of checks and balances that would be completely undermined by the addition of one or more players targeting a specific denizen. Completely unfeasible. Client side curing can always be defeated by human response and understanding, regardless of how well the AI is.

In short, if that is the selling point of a game to you, then we are sorry to see you go, but other games will cater to what you want better. Achaea has an incredible depth and scope to it. No other game, franchise or not, can make the same claim.

Sena

Pek said:

As I expected, afflictions would pose too much challenge for computer opponents, though I would like to note, with a good deal of facetiousness, that players are already using computers to manage this, in the form of 'reflexes'.

True, but every curing system requires some human input, and there's a lot of customisation required. If everyone cured identically, then there would inevitably be some guaranteed way to kill anyone. Even if you could come up with a perfect curing system that can automatically adapt itself to every strategy for every class, you still wouldn't be finished, it will require constant upkeep to deal with changes in the game and new strategies or tricks that players come up with. And even then, with perfect curing that's constantly updated, as Tecton said there are situations where you can still kill a denizen effortlessly (especially with a group), making bashing trivial and even more boring than it is now.

Melodie

Achaea's bashing is kind of terrible, no one will lie to you about that. It's something we're looking to get improved soon, and has been agreed upon that it needs a change.

That said, there's so many other amazing aspects to Achaea that can keep you here. PVP is certainly one, but the depth of the roleplay and the ability to handle your character's story is simply unmatched. You can literally be almost anything within the game's established lore if you push hard enough, and are willing to invest the time and heart into it. Anyone here on the forums can share you with their own selection of amazing stories.

But if bashing is your main care and you don't enjoy it (we do have some players who bash very often, such as Penwize when he's about), then perhaps Achaea is not for you. Sorry if that's so.

Nim

@Sena: I imagine that one way to handle denizens would be randomized curing, to prevent them from being too deterministic. Another would be akin to boss characters in fighting games, where they just get things normal characters don't have (potentially including over-the-top curing abilities to get them out of locks). It'd still be a lot of work and balancing, though!

Datrius

Will we at least be allowed to sweepkick and bbt Ugrach if he stays down l, @Tecton‌ ?

Nim

He'll probably just learn how to kai cripple off balance and without spending kai.

Datrius

Damn you, Ugrach, respond here like a man!

Iocun

There's also the thing that bashing being as simple as it currently is fills a niche that PvP doesn't provide. Not everyone is interested in mechanically complex fights and the need to acquire a lot of knowledge before bashing some heads in. The advantage of the current simple PvE is that it has a shallow learning curve, needs pretty much no explanation, and can be done successfully even when you're tired, drunk, had a stressful day, and really don't feel like straining your brain overly much.

As soon as afflictions, complex denizen curing, and a generally complex denizen AI enter the equation, this would turn bashing into something that requires as much mental investment as PvP. Sure, you could leave the majority of denizens as they currently are and only add this complexity to certain boss fights, but that would mean an even greater disparity between the necessary coding effort and the impact they'd have on the game, since the coding effort would be almost the same, no matter if it was only added to one denizen or all of them.

I do agree of course that currently PvE in Achaea isn't very exciting (which is why I only do it very sporadically). But rather than trying to extend PvP mechanics to PvE, I think it would be more practical to work on extended PvE-exclusive mechanics, because like that you don't have any issues of having to balance abilities around PvP and PvE at the same time. Simply adding ways to increase PvE flavour, through more varied attack messages etc., would be a huge step in this direction, and wouldn't involve a similarly huge coding effort and balancing problems.

Nim

Iocun said:

Simply adding ways to increase PvE flavour, through more varied attack messages etc., would be a huge step in this direction, and wouldn't involve a similarly huge coding effort and balancing problems.

While I agree it'd be cool if adventurers were on par with denizens by having multiple attack messages, the multiple attack messages from denizens don't really make PvE more interesting for me.

I maintain my suggestion that denizen attacks should be emotable, making it a potential form of roleplaying, if a bit of a stale one given that the fast pace of combat would make it difficult to improvise, but at least it would let people have their own personal touch.

It could probably be made a bit more complex, I'm sure, but in terms of flavor, I think a system that let players have creative input could be far more interesting.

It might also be cool if emoting were extended to PvP attacks to a limited degree, to allow bloody rituals to involve actual blood, but that might be pushing the concept a bit far, although I think it might be fine with a config option at least, and especially if the administration ever adds GMCP messages for afflictions and attacks and stuff.

Ernam

I'm just really happy there are Treacherous Planes.  Without the slight risk of being attacked at any given moment, along with the fun of the arbitrary fights that break out regularly, I'd never be able to overcome the boredom.

Personally, I'd like to see more of them - for both higher and lower level bashers.

Iocun

Another PvE aspect I'd love to be looked at is group hunting, particularly in groups of very diverse level. Stuff like house hunts are cool and really help to build a sense of community, but are hindered a lot by certain mechanical disadvantages, mainly that it is hard to find bashing spots that won't get your novices killed, aren't constantly bashed empty, and provide a decent amount of experience, to make them actually worth it. Many such group hunting trips thus end with either going for really weak targets that give barely any XP, or going for strong targets but having to tell the novices not to attack, but simply follow around, in order to keep them safe.

If it was possible to get some sort of "combo attacks" between multiple people, as well as a way for higher level players to protect the younger players from damage to a certain degree, this might increase interactivity in PvE a lot. I don't have any concrete ideas as for how to put this into practice yet though.

Iocun

Ernam said:

I'm just really happy there are Treacherous Planes.  Without the slight risk of being attacked at any given moment, along with the fun of the arbitrary fights that break out regularly, I'd never be able to overcome the boredom.

Personally, I'd like to see more of them - for both higher and lower level bashers.

I really like the Treacherous Planes too. The only thing I dislike is that they are, well, planes, that are separated from the rest of the game. I know this has practical reasons, such as reducing the problems of dealing with PK rules in conflicts at the borders of those areas, summoning people to or from them, etc., but I believe that this is mainly still a relic of the times of the old PK rules and doesn't really still need to be in place.

Nim

Iocun said:

Another PvE aspect I'd love to be looked at is group hunting, particularly in groups of very diverse level. Stuff like house hunts are cool and really help to build a sense of community, but are hindered a lot by certain mechanical disadvantages, mainly that it is hard to find bashing spots that won't get your novices killed, aren't constantly bashed empty, and provide a decent amount of experience, to make them actually worth it. Many such group hunting trips thus end with either going for really weak targets that give barely any XP, or going for strong targets but having to tell the novices not to attack, but simply follow around, in order to keep them safe.

If it was possible to get some sort of "combo attacks" between multiple people, as well as a way for higher level players to protect the younger players from damage to a certain degree, this might increase interactivity in PvE a lot. I don't have any concrete ideas as for how to put this into practice yet though.

Perhaps more non-combat abilities might be beneficial too. Things like hands or reflection that lower level adventurers can use to help higher level adventurers out. They could be offensive as well. Like, bards could actively play music that gives everyone in their party +1 to attack rolls.

Ernam

Iocun said:

Ernam said:

I'm just really happy there are Treacherous Planes.  Without the slight risk of being attacked at any given moment, along with the fun of the arbitrary fights that break out regularly, I'd never be able to overcome the boredom.

Personally, I'd like to see more of them - for both higher and lower level bashers.

I really like the Treacherous Planes too. The only thing I dislike is that they are, well, planes, that are separated from the rest of the game. I know this has practical reasons, such as reducing the problems of dealing with PK rules in conflicts at the borders of those areas, summoning people to or from them, etc., but I believe that this is mainly still a relic of the times of the old PK rules and doesn't really still need to be in place.

Those are definitely obstacles, but they're not insurmountable.  Hell, I was hoping Meropis would be open PK when it was released.  Then poeple who bash there might have to actually look at their computers occasionally.