AB RUNELORE ENTOMB

Bluef

Kuy said:

Bluef said:

Kuy said:

Bluef said:

This is a pretty cool idea and I don't mean this in a snarky way, but what would shamans get to offset another runelore skill that is focused only on (or best used by) runewardens? I mean y'all already have runeblades. Shamans already don't get to play with those, and we still don't even get to do anything with our hard earned tzantza-ed heads yet.

Once upon a time we were going to be given something to balance things out (early discussions were for things like runes on a staff that turned it into a buffing runestick of some kind if I recall correctly). Anyway, I don't mean derail your thread. I just thought it was something to keep in mind as it would likely be one of the main concerns brought up by people after something like this was actually implemented. 

No?

The only point of this discussion is to try talk out an idea to give Runewardens a viable strategy to kill people who just can't be damaged out.  The idea that we also have to tie in something for Shamans while doing or after this is quite silly, considering there aren't many people who can withstand a shaman when they know what they're doing.

If Runewardens get something to balance them a little better and suddenly there's an outcry of Shamans who feel jipped because the other Runists got something new and shiny, it can be dealt with later.  It is not something that needs to be considered during this discussion.

Kenway's idea is awesome, but what if we tweaked it around a bit to make it both more general purposed and easier to accomplish:

AB RUNELORE ENTOMB:

Bind <target> <left leg|right leg|torso|head>

Entomb <target> (After all four limbs have been bound)

Your bond with the earth is so strong that you may summon its vengeance upon those who have earned your ire. After binding their core to the ground, the earth itself will rise to crush their very bones, petrifying their body.

In order to cast a rune of binding upon a limb, that limb must be mangled (level 2 break - one application of restoration.)

Once sketched, the rune will fade after 30s (can be adjusted, of course - I think 30s might be too long.)

Has a 2s balance recovery time.

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (.75s increased tumble time per leg; stacks with the deficit from broken limbs.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (33% chance of parry failing.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded. (33% chance of FOCUS failing.)

The actual entombing is a timed instakill.  It will take 2s to complete, during which the Runewarden may take no other action.  Paralysis, peace, and being proned will prevent the entomb from completing after it is started.  In order to BEGIN the entombing, the target must have each leg, torso, and head bound.

BEGIN

1st: Channeling your will into the earth beneath you, you begin the process of petrifying Kenway.

3rd: Bowing his head with an eerie reverence, Kuy begins to commune with the earth beneath him.

END

1st: The ground beneath you surges violently as it grasps at your legs. Quickly overtaking your body, it begins to harden and constrict your bones. You scream in agony as your innards are crushed, finding no peace as your body is petrified alive. 3rd: You watch in horror as the ground beneath Kenway comes alive, grasping at his legs. The audible snap of bones can be heard as the earth hardens about his body. His screaming ends as the ground overtakes his head, his visage petrified in horror.

That last bit is really bad writing, but I'm now in a friend's car. Also, don't forget that if Runewardens had something like this (with each binding giving really good effects), they could lose Runeblades since they would no longer be necessary both mechanically and flavor-wise!

Sorry - didn't mean to derail. I said it was a pretty cool idea. I didn't say you had to discuss shaman equivalents. I was just pointing out that differences given to runewardens int he past have led to some heated debates in the past, especially since so many of the changes to runelore beyond runeblades already favour "stick it and slash it" runewardens flighty shamans (dagaz, uruz, isaz). This same "shamans are so much more OP than us" argument was also used back when the initial changes were made to runelore too. Just saying.

Anyway, go ahead and fine tool, propose, etc. all you want. I'll even help you: Petrification is the process by which a porous material is filled with minerals and thus converted to stone, so to stick with that basic geological process:

1st - The ground beneath you surges violently with swirling waters, which grasp at your legs. 
3rd - You watch in horror as groundwater surges beneath Kuy, swirling around his legs. 

1st - Quickly submerged in the liquefied soil, you scream out in agony as the earth's minerals precipitate out of the groundflow, preserving your anguished form as a fossil. 
3rd - The stifled screams of Kuy fall silent as he is submerged in the liqueified soil, the ground overtaking his fossilized head before the visage of his petrified horror can be glimpsed. 

Your passive aggressive nonsense is not wanted, warranted, or helpful.  How dare you have the audacity to go around flagging posts for the same sort of behavior you exhibit.  There was a point in time I considered you a reasonable individual with a good head on your shoulders, but your recent forum decorum has taken on a "fuck the man" attitude that I sincerely hope is resolved.

In case it is not clear, you do not need to come into a thread in which the prime point of contention is the mechanics of the ability and offer only your stern critique of strictly hypothetical flavour text in such a way that suggests your intellectual superiority by citing a non-critical misuse of a term.  You especially don't need to come rearing your growing toxic attitude toward someone who has never once shown you any form of volatility on these forums.  I will admit that, in a second reading, my negligence in the fact that often times I come off strongly may be evident.  However, I have always said that people are not my thing, and it's rather difficult for me to understand how someone will interpret what I understand to be a neutral connotation.  If this is what has happened, and you're lashing out because you think I've intentionally attempted to insult you, then I apologize for my inability to properly assess the emotional implications of my wording.

Now that we've cleared that out, unless you have something meaningful to offer towards the mechanics that are in question, please go elsewhere.  You may also take your clearly extensive knowledge of basic geological processes with you, preferably shoved up your ass.  And that one was on purpose.

Wow, um. Awkward.

I have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about. I haven't flagged anything on this thread other than your absolutely inappropriate and overly emotional rant at me just now. If I've somehow pissed you off in another thread...why the hell are you bringing it here?

To be clear, I wasn't trying to act intellectually superior, to be toxic or to lash out at you (why would I?). I don't know why you'd even think that. I wrote my last response to clarify the point of my initial post re: shamans, to apologize if anyone thought I was attempting to derail the discussion, and to be helpful because I honestly didn't think the message ideas being shared were indicative of the geological process behind petrification. I'm pretty good at writing descriptions and...that's it. 

Apart from my obvious interest in runelore on my main, sometimes I play a runewarden alt, Kuy. The skill discussion interested me. So get a grip. 

Achimrst

Kuy said:

Bluef said:

Kuy said:

Bluef said:

This is a pretty cool idea and I don't mean this in a snarky way, but what would shamans get to offset another runelore skill that is focused only on (or best used by) runewardens? I mean y'all already have runeblades. Shamans already don't get to play with those, and we still don't even get to do anything with our hard earned tzantza-ed heads yet.

Once upon a time we were going to be given something to balance things out (early discussions were for things like runes on a staff that turned it into a buffing runestick of some kind if I recall correctly). Anyway, I don't mean derail your thread. I just thought it was something to keep in mind as it would likely be one of the main concerns brought up by people after something like this was actually implemented. 

No?

The only point of this discussion is to try talk out an idea to give Runewardens a viable strategy to kill people who just can't be damaged out.  The idea that we also have to tie in something for Shamans while doing or after this is quite silly, considering there aren't many people who can withstand a shaman when they know what they're doing.

If Runewardens get something to balance them a little better and suddenly there's an outcry of Shamans who feel jipped because the other Runists got something new and shiny, it can be dealt with later.  It is not something that needs to be considered during this discussion.

Kenway's idea is awesome, but what if we tweaked it around a bit to make it both more general purposed and easier to accomplish:

AB RUNELORE ENTOMB:

Bind <target> <left leg|right leg|torso|head>

Entomb <target> (After all four limbs have been bound)

Your bond with the earth is so strong that you may summon its vengeance upon those who have earned your ire. After binding their core to the ground, the earth itself will rise to crush their very bones, petrifying their body.

In order to cast a rune of binding upon a limb, that limb must be mangled (level 2 break - one application of restoration.)

Once sketched, the rune will fade after 30s (can be adjusted, of course - I think 30s might be too long.)

Has a 2s balance recovery time.

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (.75s increased tumble time per leg; stacks with the deficit from broken limbs.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (33% chance of parry failing.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded. (33% chance of FOCUS failing.)

The actual entombing is a timed instakill.  It will take 2s to complete, during which the Runewarden may take no other action.  Paralysis, peace, and being proned will prevent the entomb from completing after it is started.  In order to BEGIN the entombing, the target must have each leg, torso, and head bound.

BEGIN

1st: Channeling your will into the earth beneath you, you begin the process of petrifying Kenway.

3rd: Bowing his head with an eerie reverence, Kuy begins to commune with the earth beneath him.

END

1st: The ground beneath you surges violently as it grasps at your legs. Quickly overtaking your body, it begins to harden and constrict your bones. You scream in agony as your innards are crushed, finding no peace as your body is petrified alive. 3rd: You watch in horror as the ground beneath Kenway comes alive, grasping at his legs. The audible snap of bones can be heard as the earth hardens about his body. His screaming ends as the ground overtakes his head, his visage petrified in horror.

That last bit is really bad writing, but I'm now in a friend's car. Also, don't forget that if Runewardens had something like this (with each binding giving really good effects), they could lose Runeblades since they would no longer be necessary both mechanically and flavor-wise!

Sorry - didn't mean to derail. I said it was a pretty cool idea. I didn't say you had to discuss shaman equivalents. I was just pointing out that differences given to runewardens int he past have led to some heated debates in the past, especially since so many of the changes to runelore beyond runeblades already favour "stick it and slash it" runewardens flighty shamans (dagaz, uruz, isaz). This same "shamans are so much more OP than us" argument was also used back when the initial changes were made to runelore too. Just saying.

Anyway, go ahead and fine tool, propose, etc. all you want. I'll even help you: Petrification is the process by which a porous material is filled with minerals and thus converted to stone, so to stick with that basic geological process:

1st - The ground beneath you surges violently with swirling waters, which grasp at your legs. 
3rd - You watch in horror as groundwater surges beneath Kuy, swirling around his legs. 

1st - Quickly submerged in the liquefied soil, you scream out in agony as the earth's minerals precipitate out of the groundflow, preserving your anguished form as a fossil. 
3rd - The stifled screams of Kuy fall silent as he is submerged in the liqueified soil, the ground overtaking his fossilized head before the visage of his petrified horror can be glimpsed. 

Your passive aggressive nonsense is not wanted, warranted, or helpful.  How dare you have the audacity to go around flagging posts for the same sort of behavior you exhibit.  There was a point in time I considered you a reasonable individual with a good head on your shoulders, but your recent forum decorum has taken on a "fuck the man" attitude that I sincerely hope is resolved.

In case it is not clear, you do not need to come into a thread in which the prime point of contention is the mechanics of the ability and offer only your stern critique of strictly hypothetical flavour text in such a way that suggests your intellectual superiority by citing a non-critical misuse of a term.  You especially don't need to come rearing your growing toxic attitude toward someone who has never once shown you any form of volatility on these forums.  I will admit that, in a second reading, my negligence in the fact that often times I come off strongly may be evident.  However, I have always said that people are not my thing, and it's rather difficult for me to understand how someone will interpret what I understand to be a neutral connotation.  If this is what has happened, and you're lashing out because you think I've intentionally attempted to insult you, then I apologize for my inability to properly assess the emotional implications of my wording.

Now that we've cleared that out, unless you have something meaningful to offer towards the mechanics that are in question, please go elsewhere.  You may also take your clearly extensive knowledge of basic geological processes with you, preferably shoved up your ass.  And that one was on purpose.

@Kuy Stop your whiney bitch bullshitting and classlead this shit already :P

Classleads are open last I checked.

Kenway

Kuy said:

AB RUNELORE ENTOMB:

Bind <target> <left leg|right leg|torso|head>

Entomb <target> (After all four limbs have been bound)

Your bond with the earth is so strong that you may summon its vengeance upon those who have earned your ire. After binding their core to the ground, the earth itself will rise to crush their very bones, petrifying their body.

In order to cast a rune of binding upon a limb, that limb must be mangled (level 2 break - one application of restoration.)

Once sketched, the rune will fade after 30s (can be adjusted, of course - I think 30s might be too long.)

Has a 2s balance recovery time.

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (.75s increased tumble time per leg; stacks with the deficit from broken limbs.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (33% chance of parry failing.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded. (33% chance of FOCUS failing.)

The actual entombing is a timed instakill.  It will take 2s to complete, during which the Runewarden may take no other action.  Paralysis, peace, and being proned will prevent the entomb from completing after it is started.  In order to BEGIN the entombing, the target must have each leg, torso, and head bound.

BEGIN

1st: Channeling your will into the earth beneath you, you begin the process of petrifying Kenway.

3rd: Bowing his head with an eerie reverence, Kuy begins to commune with the earth beneath him.

END

1st: The ground beneath you surges violently as it grasps at your legs. Quickly overtaking your body, it begins to harden and constrict your bones. You scream in agony as your innards are crushed, finding no peace as your body is petrified alive. 3rd: You watch in horror as the ground beneath Kenway comes alive, grasping at his legs. The audible snap of bones can be heard as the earth hardens about his body. His screaming ends as the ground overtakes his head, his visage petrified in horror.

That last bit is really bad writing, but I'm now in a friend's car. Also, don't forget that if Runewardens had something like this (with each binding giving really good effects), they could lose Runeblades since they would no longer be necessary both mechanically and flavor-wise!

I really like the idea of the added effects but I'd shy away from effecting focus. Runies are faster than other knights and we can already manalock people, and depending on the class, we can do it fairly easily. Giving us what is essentially slightly-less-good-impatience is not going to help steer Runie away from affliction based kills like locking then voyria/darkshade. Core and legs are both really cool ideas though. 

I feel the time delay could be fine but I hesitate to have it so easily stoppable, (torc/arc/batter/etc kind of present the same problem that's trying to be nullified with dsb). Could have it take time to sketch just like other runes and have it kill the target if they're in the same room when it completes. The Runie can't move or attack while sketching, giving you a chance to cure and gtfo since you will be unable to effectively tumble due to leg binding.

Kuy

@Achimrst: I'm not confident enough in my understanding to classlead it.  Hence, the thread!

Kuy

@Kenway: Don't forget the p.s.!  If runies got something as game changing as this could potentially be, they could remove Runeblades from being a thing because they're no longer necessary.  Also, Runies aren't faster than every other knight - any knight can have weapon runes!

...I give up on quotes.  They look fine in my comment box, and all the html is correct.  Fk u frmz

Aerek

I feel like the "Binding" idea would be too easy to avoid by running. You'd just have to run after the 2nd or 3rd limb and wait for the first binding to fade, much like we currently run from Alchemists to get our fluids down, or run from Occultists until Cadmus/Hecate wears off. Running is valid and necessary in certain instances, but it generally bores me as a "counter" to an ability.

Personally, I feel that Runewardens should be focused on the Disembowel, as I feel Runewardens have the best damage stacking ability of the Knights, and Runeblades mean their weapons hit harder and faster than the other Knights, which makes their Disembowels a little more dangerous than the other Knights' overall. (I know some folks say Paladins hurt more, I guess I just haven't fought one that did) I think all they need is a touch of help actually sealing those disembowels, since they don't have any other instant-kill options.What might be interesting is an ability that discourages Tumble, but doesn't disallow it. A rune that made Tumble take even longer or prevented Tumble entirely would make it literally impossible to escape a disembowel. I think something that provides a choice between two bad options is the goal here. Either sit and take the Disembowel, proper, or Tumble and risk...something, I don't know. But something bad enough to make sitting and taking a disembowel seem like a valid option.

Alternatively, what about a rune that would bump level 1 torso damage up to level 2 when you were knocked prone? You fall on a stalagmite or something and it turns minor trauma into serious trauma, essentially making a Disembowel into an instant-kill. (Only from level 1 to level 2, not from 0 to level 1) Would that be too easy for the Runewarden/too hard for the opponent? As long as you stayed on top of your torso damage, you'd be fine, but if they slipped torso damage on to you and busted that first leg, now you'd have level 2, so it's tumble or die.If you applied to torso before they busted the first leg, you'd still get bumped to level 2 when you hit the ground, but you'd only have level 1 by the time you got Disemboweled, which is still dangerous if Hugalaz/Thurisaz is going on in the background.

Bluef

Aerek said:

I feel like the "Binding" idea would be too easy to avoid by running. You'd just have to run after the 2nd or 3rd limb and wait for the first binding to fade, much like we currently run from Alchemists to get our fluids down, or run from Occultists until Cadmus/Hecate wears off. Running is valid and necessary in certain instances, but it generally bores me as a "counter" to an ability.

Personally, I feel that Runewardens should be focused on the Disembowel, as I feel Runewardens have the best damage stacking ability of the Knights, and Runeblades mean their weapons hit harder and faster than the other Knights, which makes their Disembowels a little more dangerous than the other Knights' overall. (I know some folks say Paladins hurt more, I guess I just haven't fought one that did) I think all they need is a touch of help actually sealing those disembowels, since they don't have any other instant-kill options.What might be interesting is an ability that discourages Tumble, but doesn't disallow it. A rune that made Tumble take even longer or prevented Tumble entirely would make it literally impossible to escape a disembowel. I think something that provides a choice between two bad options is the goal here. Either sit and take the Disembowel, proper, or Tumble and risk...something, I don't know. But something bad enough to make sitting and taking a disembowel seem like a valid option.

Alternatively, what about a rune that would bump level 1 torso damage up to level 2 when you were knocked prone? You fall on a stalagmite or something and it turns minor trauma into serious trauma, essentially making a Disembowel into an instant-kill. (Only from level 1 to level 2, not from 0 to level 1) Would that be too easy for the Runewarden/too hard for the opponent? As long as you stayed on top of your torso damage, you'd be fine, but if they slipped torso damage on to you and busted that first leg, now you'd have level 2, so it's tumble or die.If you applied to torso before they busted the first leg, you'd still get bumped to level 2 when you hit the ground, but you'd only have level 1 by the time you got Disemboweled, which is still dangerous if Hugalaz/Thurisaz is going on in the background.

That was my first though too @Aerek. If I was "bound," I'd just run away until it faded (sort the way you shield or run on voidfist when fighting a blademaster). 

I'm not too fond of the torso damage idea due to its potential applications in group combat (too easy for the runewarden in that scenario). 

Kenway

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration. I think @Caladbolg disembowels without a torso break for something crazy stupid awesome like 70%. The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties). I also hesitate messing with tumble in any way because of what tumble is. Like you said, running is a valid and often necessary option and it'd be way too easy to just break leg with delph and wail on them with epseth to get them to tumble out.

@Kuy I assume by removing runeblades you mean removing nairat/hugalaz/eiwhaz/pithikhan sketch-ability on them, rather than removing the ability to add Laguz Lagul and Lagua and bind them? 

How about to make it harder to just run till the timer ticks down we move the binding effects around?

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (Similar to hamstring but doesn't prevent mounting. So basically just delays room movement. Does not stack.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (Added time to tumble I assume tumbling would include some flex of the core.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded and their reflexes to dull. (33% chance of negating parry.)

Kuy

@Kenway: Yea, though you can do away with the binding to the blade, as well, imho.  It's just a quality of life thing, really.

You don't really need to worry too much about people running on the binds themselves, I think.  You're already stacking damage on them while you prep with thurisaz/hugalaz - the target running just means they're going to eat an engage and a lunge.  Not to mention you have access to wunjo/nairat.  Also, running is the surefire way to stop anyone from killing with anything.  

Kenway

Ink is expensive yo! Let us have our 30 days plzkthnks

Bluef

Kuy said:

@Kenway: Yea, though you can do away with the binding to the blade, as well, imho.  It's just a quality of life thing, really.

You don't really need to worry too much about people running on the binds themselves, I think.  You're already stacking damage on them while you prep with thurisaz/hugalaz - the target running just means they're going to eat an engage and a lunge.  Not to mention you have access to wunjo/nairat.  Also, running is the surefire way to stop anyone from killing with anything.  

I think people probably would run on the binds, actually. Treating them a lot like voidfist and just waiting for them to dissipate. Plus most artied players aren't going to be afraid to eat a lunge/engage or they'll be smart and fly or prepare defenses. 

I don't think messing with tumble is a go either though. When I think of the attacks and instakills you can tumble out of, it makes me realize how OP this would be if used in group combat. 

Aerek

Kenway said:

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration.

The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties)

Runewardens still have Jera, so Inspiration only gives us a net +1 over you guys, and because we have to shell out for weapons that actually have 235+ as their natural speed, our weapon damages are usually lower than any Runewardens' runeblades, which makes it easier to shrug off our pre-damage. (If you're assuming every Paladin always has Runes and think that's unbalanced, that's a different issue to discuss.) In addition, we don't have the short-term, on-demand burst potential of Thurisaz and Hugalaz to stack with the Disembowel, itself. Overall, I don't think the +1 STR Paladins enjoy equals all of the extra damage Runewardens can throw around, you just have to use all the tools in your arsenal.

I'm confused by the latter statement. Level 2 torso damage with anything more than 14 or 15 STR should kill everyone in the game. I've personally killed Dragons with 9k health, from full, because they didn't diagnose, and only had 16 STR at the time. I was worried that automatic level 2 torso damage might be overpowered, but you sound like you think that wouldn't be enough, can you clarify?

Antonius

How incredibly fucking childish. Cooper, along with others including myself, have made it clear that we don't want to have pictures of spiders forced upon us. To start to use them as a weapon in response to a reaction to your post is mind bogglingly sad.

Jovolo

Do you just genuinely aim to ruin decent topics? I guess acting obnoxious and frighteningly immature is the new black. Still got plenty of time to hash this out Kuy, I'll have a chat in-game if I see you around. However I'm extremely tired, functioning on three hours sleep and need to get back to work, peace out for now

(Really hoping this thread can remain constructive, so leave if this is not your intention please...?)

Jhui

it's the internet guys, ignoring is the best solution.  If you stay on topic the post will get ignored.  People will catch on and do the same.

Kenway

Aerek said:

Kenway said:

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration.

The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties)

Runewardens still have Jera, so Inspiration only gives us a net +1 over you guys, and because we have to shell out for weapons that actually have 235+ as their natural speed, our weapon damages are usually lower than any Runewardens' runeblades, which makes it easier to shrug off our pre-damage. (If you're assuming every Paladin always has Runes and think that's unbalanced, that's a different issue to discuss.) In addition, we don't have the short-term, on-demand burst potential of Thurisaz and Hugalaz to stack with the Disembowel, itself. Overall, I don't think the +1 STR Paladins enjoy equals all of the extra damage Runewardens can throw around, you just have to use all the tools in your arsenal.

I'm confused by the latter statement. Level 2 torso damage with anything more than 14 or 15 STR should kill everyone in the game. I've personally killed Dragons with 9k health, from full, because they didn't diagnose, and only had 16 STR at the time. I was worried that automatic level 2 torso damage might be overpowered, but you sound like you think that wouldn't be enough, can you clarify?

Because certain people can tank so well, if this was implemented, those select people would simply prioritize torso damage over leg and be able to diagnose on arm/leg break, saving them from a level 2 disembowel and allowing them to either turtle up and heal, run away and heal, or in the super rare cases, just keep going. I'm not saying it's a common issue but it sure is an agravating one.

EDIT: I also just really like the flavour and prospect of entomb 'cause I think it adds something fresh to the combat scene and that's exciting. So I'm honestly probably over eager to find holes in other solutions and I genuinely apologize for that.

Jhui

Increasing the efficiency of DSB could be boring.  It's a great skill if you can ensure you do it when they won't escape.

Backup plans are a better solutions, giving defense and offense options.

classlead show 239, we worked together to submit this lead, solution 1 being mine, but they are all a lot more fun than just helping DSB.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitted by: Aelios         Status      : Unsubmitted

Skill       : Runelore       Ability     : New

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Problem:

Currently, Runewardens are considered the middle-child of the Knight classes. Infernals have 

Vivisection as a viable option to finish a fight, and Paladins with Damnation - both of these 

belonging to seperate skill trees on top of Chivalry, making it a challenge to boost something like 

Disembowel, without overpowering the Infernal and Paladin classes. It's with this, I suggest the new 

solution for Runewarden combat that would give them a viable alternative to Disembowel finishes, as 

posed by the challenges listed in Classlead 231 and 233.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution #1:

Add a variation to the rune Pithakhan. When sketched on a specific limb of a target, it will draw 

the damage from that limb and apply it to that limbs counterpart. Limb counterparts: leftarm-

>leftleg, rightarm->rightleg head->torso, and vice-versa. This will still leave tumbling to avoid 

disembowel as an option, but will allow the runewarden to keep a target prone longer if they break 

enough limbs correctly and achieve a slower, more difficult kill.

Solution #2:

Create a NEW rune that can be sketched on a proned target with 3 broken limbs, effectively sealing 

their fate. The rune's effects would cause the broken limbs to forcibly disfigure, turning two 

randomly into a level 3 break.

Solution #3:

Add a variation to the rune Loshre that, when sketched on the head of a prone opponent, explodes on 

them after several moments with random afflictions, scaled directly by how many limbs are broken at 

the time of being sketched.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kenway

Jhui said:

Increasing the efficiency of DSB could be boring.  It's a great skill if you can ensure you do it when they won't escape.

Backup plans are a better solutions, giving defense and offense options.

classlead show 239, we worked together to submit this lead, solution 1 being mine, but they are all a lot more fun than just helping DSB.

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Submitted by: Aelios         Status      : Unsubmitted

Skill       : Runelore       Ability     : New

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Problem:

Currently, Runewardens are considered the middle-child of the Knight classes. Infernals have 

Vivisection as a viable option to finish a fight, and Paladins with Damnation - both of these 

belonging to seperate skill trees on top of Chivalry, making it a challenge to boost something like 

Disembowel, without overpowering the Infernal and Paladin classes. It's with this, I suggest the new 

solution for Runewarden combat that would give them a viable alternative to Disembowel finishes, as 

posed by the challenges listed in Classlead 231 and 233.

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Solution #1:

Add a variation to the rune Pithakhan. When sketched on a specific limb of a target, it will draw 

the damage from that limb and apply it to that limbs counterpart. Limb counterparts: leftarm-

>leftleg, rightarm->rightleg head->torso, and vice-versa. This will still leave tumbling to avoid 

disembowel as an option, but will allow the runewarden to keep a target prone longer if they break 

enough limbs correctly and achieve a slower, more difficult kill.

Solution #2:

Create a NEW rune that can be sketched on a proned target with 3 broken limbs, effectively sealing 

their fate. The rune's effects would cause the broken limbs to forcibly disfigure, turning two 

randomly into a level 3 break.

Solution #3:

Add a variation to the rune Loshre that, when sketched on the head of a prone opponent, explodes on 

them after several moments with random afflictions, scaled directly by how many limbs are broken at 

the time of being sketched.

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1 and 3 are interesting, 2 seems too close to vivisect in my opinion. Would these runes be susceptible to SMUDGE <rune> OFF ME?

Jhui

no

Sena

Daeir said:

Remember, everything that is given to Runelore is also given to Shamans

It doesn't have to be.

Tharvis

Daeir said:

I suppose. That gives me the heebies a little bit, though. If you're going to make changes to a shared skill set, you may as well give both classes that use it cool shit as opposed to just locking the ability to a certain class.

elementalism. Just sayin'

Antonius

Trying to come up with things that work for one class without overpowering the other can be problematic. For example, there's absolutely no way Priests could keep Inquisition if it was also available to Paladins. If a class needs something to be viable then it should get it, there's zero sense in holding them back just because they have shared skills.

Mithridates

Daeir said:

I suppose. That gives me the heebies a little bit, though. If you're going to make changes to a shared skill set, you may as well give both classes that use it cool shit as opposed to just locking the ability to a certain class.

You're right, I need Viridian.

Tharvis

Mithridates said:

Daeir said:

I suppose. That gives me the heebies a little bit, though. If you're going to make changes to a shared skill set, you may as well give both classes that use it cool shit as opposed to just locking the ability to a certain class.

You're right, I need Viridian.

a Viridian staffcasting with that +2int bonus. Now -that- would be overpowered

Bluef

Antonius said:

How incredibly fucking childish. Cooper, along with others including myself, have made it clear that we don't want to have pictures of spiders forced upon us. To start to use them as a weapon in response to a reaction to your post is mind bogglingly sad.

What is it with the over emotionality in this thread? My good lords. Keep it together people. 

Sena said:

Daeir said:

Remember, everything that is given to Runelore is also given to Shamans

It doesn't have to be.

That's true. I honestly wouldn't mind runewardens being given things Shamans aren't if if if shamans are given some cool things as well that runewardens don't have.  If you're going to mix up a single ability this way between two classes, then at least mix it up evenly. 

Sorry if this is considered a derail (if you read up, you'll see we're not allowed to discuss this here - or maybe it's just me IDK). I just don't want to give Kuy another transient dramatic attack. 

Antonius

@Bluef: The major difference between Runewarden and Shaman is that Runewarden doesn't have any unique skills. Changes to Chivalry have an effect on the other two Knight classes, and therefore a larger impact on the overall combat landscape of the game, so the majority of additions and changes to Runewardens are going to fall into Runelore. If you're expecting Shaman to get new things just because Runewarden is you're going to be disappointed. If there's a need for Shaman to get new things then make a case for it, come up with viable suggestions, and start another thread to discuss them.

Bluef

Antonius said:

@Bluef: The major difference between Runewarden and Shaman is that Runewarden doesn't have any unique skills. Changes to Chivalry have an effect on the other two Knight classes, and therefore a larger impact on the overall combat landscape of the game, so the majority of additions and changes to Runewardens are going to fall into Runelore. If you're expecting Shaman to get new things just because Runewarden is you're going to be disappointed. If there's a need for Shaman to get new things then make a case for it, come up with viable suggestions, and start another thread to discuss them.

Isn't forging going to become a tradeskill? If so, wouldn't that mean runewarden will be getting a new/unique third class skillset?

@Antonius: I'm not the one who re-brought this up. @Daeir and @Sena did. I responded to them. I'm not expecting anything. I simply made the statement that runewardens already have something shamans don't and how lovely it would be, if class skills are going to be differentiated this way, if there could be additions on both sides to make things truly unique all around. I don't want to discuss it here. If I wanted to do that, I would make a new thread.

I have actually been adding to the runewarden-related mechanics discussion. Unfortunately, the one idea I liked was so far off course in its description it made me cringe and most of the other changes proposed here are never going to go anywhere because they're far too extreme and would wildly imbalance combat mechanics.

@Kenway's had some good contributions though and @Jhui's idea/classlead is pretty awesome.

Caladbolg

Kenway said:

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration. I think @Caladbolg disembowels without a torso break for something crazy stupid awesome like 70%. The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties). I also hesitate messing with tumble in any way because of what tumble is. Like you said, running is a valid and often necessary option and it'd be way too easy to just break leg with delph and wail on them with epseth to get them to tumble out.

@Kuy I assume by removing runeblades you mean removing nairat/hugalaz/eiwhaz/pithikhan sketch-ability on them, rather than removing the ability to add Laguz Lagul and Lagua and bind them? 

How about to make it harder to just run till the timer ticks down we move the binding effects around?

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (Similar to hamstring but doesn't prevent mounting. So basically just delays room movement. Does not stack.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (Added time to tumble I assume tumbling would include some flex of the core.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded and their reflexes to dull. (33% chance of negating parry.)

Not sure if it got said or not yet but, Paladins' won't actually always disembowel harder. since 22 strength and a torso break is 100% hp

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +1 from runes = 17 +fury = 19 + 3 gauntlet = 22

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +2 from inspiration = 18+ fury = 20 +runes = 21 +gauntlet = 24

While Paladin does have the chance to achieve disembowels to 100% on people with truefavors/runes/mir.. The damage should already be up enough to kill those people with 22 strength to start with. add in the fact that any strength past 18 doesn't do much of anything except for disembowel and you come to the conclusion that all Inspiration does in the min/max world is allows you to trait lower for strength (But more int for that purity/arc goodness )

Kross

Caladbolg said:

Kenway said:

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration. I think @Caladbolg disembowels without a torso break for something crazy stupid awesome like 70%. The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties). I also hesitate messing with tumble in any way because of what tumble is. Like you said, running is a valid and often necessary option and it'd be way too easy to just break leg with delph and wail on them with epseth to get them to tumble out.

@Kuy I assume by removing runeblades you mean removing nairat/hugalaz/eiwhaz/pithikhan sketch-ability on them, rather than removing the ability to add Laguz Lagul and Lagua and bind them? 

How about to make it harder to just run till the timer ticks down we move the binding effects around?

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (Similar to hamstring but doesn't prevent mounting. So basically just delays room movement. Does not stack.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (Added time to tumble I assume tumbling would include some flex of the core.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded and their reflexes to dull. (33% chance of negating parry.)

Not sure if it got said or not yet but, Paladins' won't actually always disembowel harder. since 22 strength and a torso break is 100% hp

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +1 from runes = 17 +fury = 19 + 3 gauntlet = 22

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +2 from inspiration = 18+ fury = 20 +runes = 21 +gauntlet = 24

While Paladin does have the chance to achieve disembowels to 100% on people with truefavors/runes/mir.. The damage should already be up enough to kill those people with 22 strength to start with. add in the fact that any strength past 18 doesn't do much of anything except for disembowel and you come to the conclusion that all Inspiration does in the min/max world is allows you to trait lower for strength (But more int for that purity/arc goodness )

I think you miss Blademaster too much, brother.

I'll admit, I skipped page 2 to see what this has grown into. I think a viable solution would be to give them the shackle-looking rune Kenway was talking about, making it a requirement that the limb has to have lvl 1 limb damage to sketch (making it simple to sketch on epseth/epteth dsl's). Let the rune last 1 minute, as he said. For each rune inscribed, it increases Disembowel damage by 5%(?). This way, you're still required to use your tedious method of attaining the disembowel, you'll still feel the frustration of missing a limb break, so on.

Ultimately, you could manage to sketch 4 runes throughout your prep process, one on each extremity, and end up with a 20% damage buff on disembowel, which for the extra effort of having to rune during your setup, is a pretty fair trade (I think).

Alternatively, use the same runes to increase tumble time? Increase tumble time by .5 sec per rune (up to 4) for a 2 second longer tumble time.

I dunno, just throwing stuff out there. If I missed it by skipping page 2 where this was discounted or what-have-you, then please ignore.

Caladbolg

Kross said:

Caladbolg said:

Kenway said:

@Aerek Runie's have the potential for higher dps, yes but with two equally artied/specialized knights, Paladin will always disembowel harder because of the +2 strength from inspiration. I think @Caladbolg disembowels without a torso break for something crazy stupid awesome like 70%. The torso rune is a cool idea and could solve a few problems but wouldn't do anything for those people who can just sip away an 85% health drop (85% is strength spec'd human with no arties). I also hesitate messing with tumble in any way because of what tumble is. Like you said, running is a valid and often necessary option and it'd be way too easy to just break leg with delph and wail on them with epseth to get them to tumble out.

@Kuy I assume by removing runeblades you mean removing nairat/hugalaz/eiwhaz/pithikhan sketch-ability on them, rather than removing the ability to add Laguz Lagul and Lagua and bind them? 

How about to make it harder to just run till the timer ticks down we move the binding effects around?

Binding a target's leg will cause them move sluggishly as the earth paws at their feet. (Similar to hamstring but doesn't prevent mounting. So basically just delays room movement. Does not stack.)

Binding a target's torso will cause their core strength to faulter. (Added time to tumble I assume tumbling would include some flex of the core.)

Binding a target's head will cause their mind to become clouded and their reflexes to dull. (33% chance of negating parry.)

Not sure if it got said or not yet but, Paladins' won't actually always disembowel harder. since 22 strength and a torso break is 100% hp

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +1 from runes = 17 +fury = 19 + 3 gauntlet = 22

15 from race 1 from trait = 16 +2 from inspiration = 18+ fury = 20 +runes = 21 +gauntlet = 24

While Paladin does have the chance to achieve disembowels to 100% on people with truefavors/runes/mir.. The damage should already be up enough to kill those people with 22 strength to start with. add in the fact that any strength past 18 doesn't do much of anything except for disembowel and you come to the conclusion that all Inspiration does in the min/max world is allows you to trait lower for strength (But more int for that purity/arc goodness )

I think you miss Blademaster too much, brother.

I'll admit, I skipped page 2 to see what this has grown into. I think a viable solution would be to give them the shackle-looking rune Kenway was talking about, making it a requirement that the limb has to have lvl 1 limb damage to sketch (making it simple to sketch on epseth/epteth dsl's). Let the rune last 1 minute, as he said. For each rune inscribed, it increases Disembowel damage by 5%(?). This way, you're still required to use your tedious method of attaining the disembowel, you'll still feel the frustration of missing a limb break, so on.

Ultimately, you could manage to sketch 4 runes throughout your prep process, one on each extremity, and end up with a 20% damage buff on disembowel, which for the extra effort of having to rune during your setup, is a pretty fair trade (I think).

Alternatively, use the same runes to increase tumble time? Increase tumble time by .5 sec per rune (up to 4) for a 2 second longer tumble time.

I dunno, just throwing stuff out there. If I missed it by skipping page 2 where this was discounted or what-have-you, then please ignore.

Not going to lie, went paladin for bow+disembowel 1 shotting+damnation