Emoticons on public channels

Aktillum

(Eleusis): Eminox says, "So... i am done... i got boar, shield, crystal and moss tattoo ."

Emoticons for says should be made to work on channels so that the above would've been transformed into (Eleusis): Eminox laughingly says, "So... i am done... i got boar, shield, crystal and moss tattoo."

Then we won't have to instruct novices not to use emoticons on public channels.

Aktillum

actually nevermind, this won't work because the and emoticons show up as "You smile/frown and say", and you can't see smiles or frowns on telepathic channels, thus destroying the point of this idea.

Blujixapug

Could just make orgtells not work if you have unpaired parentheses?

Sarapis

@Aktillum You can't see smiles or frowns on channels right now only because we haven't coded it to allow it. I like the idea overall, though I also have zero problem with emoticons. People are already speaking English, which is an OOC language. I don't see that emoticons are any more OOC.

Oceana

It would also not work for the *grin* and *cough* and such. @Aktillum

Sybilla

I think this could tie in with @Jurixe (I think?) or Ruth's idea (vaguely remember those two mentioning it) of transmitting emotion/tone telepathically, at least in tells.

Really don't think emoticons or tagged emotes have a place on IC channels, bear in mind we're 'hearing' these, and at best we could transmit tone. (Something akin to Help Expressiveness where you can "SAY *dejectedly I wish people wouldn't use *romp* on the city channel.") 

I'm going to have to disagree with Sarapis and be one of those pedantic losers - HELP OOC:

  Please do not use tagged emotes on channels, such as "*cough*" or "-smile-" or "<stumbles around blindly>". The same applies to emoticons such as or ^_^. All these are considered OOC devices which deteriorate the IC atmosphere of the channels.

I wouldn't read a (good) fantasy book and expect to see emotes after stuff people say, so I don't want to see it in Achaea. Roleplay and writing is fantastic and we have a community with great potential to uphold it and make great strides in it, please don't water it down to cater to the WoW lolalts.

Iocun

Sarapis said:

@Aktillum You can't see smiles or frowns on channels right now only because we haven't coded it to allow it. I like the idea overall, though I also have zero problem with emoticons. People are already speaking English, which is an OOC language. I don't see that emoticons are any more OOC.

I don't think emoticons are directly an IC/OOC problem, strictly speaking. It is entirely conceivable that emotions can be transmitted telepathically and emoticons are nowadays a widely known shortcut for expressing certain simple emotions. The problem lies more in a generally increased laziness in language use, which sets a general mood of "internet lingo". This also invites the use of acronyms from "woot" to "lol" and "wtf", because this is all part of the same "tradition" of communication. In the end, the use of these kinds of shortcuts diminishes the perceived difference between the game and its OOC surroundings (the internet) and thus does ultimately make it harder for people to keep a clear IC/OOC separation. If we consciously have to type differently in Achaea than in a chatroom or the forums, this makes it easier for us to remember that we're not typing as ourselves, but representing a character in a pre-modern world. I find this especially important for the sake of new players who don't yet know how strictly IC Achaea is. Seeing "lol" and ":-)" is associated with games that have very loose RP standards, whereas consistently used English "as taught in school" is more indicative of games with higher RP standards that typically have somewhat older target audiences.

Neither is inherently "better RP", but one helps to get the message of "you're supposed to RP" across better than the other.

Sarapis

Not sure why some of you WTF'd my post.

English is an OOC language. Your characters don't speak it, they don't understand it. They speak Achaean, or other in-game languages. Your character doesn't, RP-wise, hear English, after all, or see typed words at all. It hears Achaean, or whatever language is being spoken to it, in an RP sense.

English, then, is just an OOC thing we use to communicate what your character is hearing or feeling to you, the OOC player. That's why emoticons are no more or less OOC than English is - they don't exist inside of the RP world of Achaea, and either does English. Both are simply OOC methods for communicating to you what your character is doing, hearing, feeling, etc. 

I agree with Iocun that English may help get across the 'you're supposed to RP message' though.

Shirszae

People WTF'd  your post because it implied it is alright to speak like "Hi how are you? " an similarly on public channels. I mean, I honestly can't even believe you said that. Its stupid, and would only ever contribute in degenerating channels into ooc chats

Nim

@Sarapis: @Iocun covered it exceptionally well. I don't see anything wrong with emoticons either - my tabletop/freeform roleplaying uses shortcuts like that a lot! I'm a pretty minimalistic roleplayer though.

However, emoticons do give a sort of OOC feeling, even if it's unwarranted. That's why the SAYS emoticons are so great - they remove that lolspeak aspect from the emoticon, while keeping the general spirit of its use. I think allowing them over channels would resolve the issue just as well.

I think the smile/frown emoticons could be solved by replacing them with emotions, eg.

(Eleusis) Penwize says cheerfully, "Almost about to break the world by leveling again!"
(Ashtan) Dunn says grumpily, "stfu"

But then that might go into the expressiveness thing, which could be cool too of course.

Sarapis

@Shirszae Nobody is speaking like that. They're writing like that, and the characters are speaking to each other in an in-game language that we, the OOC players, wouldn't understand as we don't know those languages (just like the IC players don't speak English). 

English, or emoticons, are translation layers between you, the OOC player, and the IC world which we can only touch through that translation layer. There's nothing special about English, or emoticons, or Filipino, or Mandarin, or any other symbols or languages you wanted to use to communicate. I mean, punctuation are symbols that add meaning to written text the same as emoticons do. Anything that communicates meaning does the job of translating, though I will grant that there may be more of the 'medium is the message' going on here than I'm giving credit for (insofar as the medium here I refer to is the language or symbology).

In any case, more of a theoretical statement on my part. It's not part of the culture of Achaea, though it personally doesn't bother me nor do I think it has anything to do, in and of itself, with roleplaying. Don't worry, the policy isn't going to change.

Sarapis

@Nim Yeah, just translating them in channels is probably the way to go. In a world where everyone can magically speak on a city channel, there's no reason why everyone can't magically speak expressively on a city channel.

Jonathin

Sybilla

Sarapis said:

@Shirszae Nobody is speaking like that. They're writing like that, and the characters are speaking to each other in an in-game language that we, the OOC players, wouldn't understand as we don't know those languages (just like the IC players don't speak English). 

English, or emoticons, are translation layers between you, the OOC player, and the IC world which we can only touch through that translation layer. There's nothing special about English, or emoticons, or Filipino, or Mandarin, or any other symbols or languages you wanted to use to communicate. I mean, punctuation are symbols that add meaning to written text the same as emoticons do. Anything that communicates meaning does the job of translating, though I will grant that there may be more of the 'medium is the message' going on here than I'm giving credit for (insofar as the medium here I refer to is the language or symbology).

In any case, more of a theoretical statement on my part. It's not part of the culture of Achaea, though it personally doesn't bother me nor do I think it has anything to do, in and of itself, with roleplaying. Don't worry, the policy isn't going to change.

I understand what you're saying in regards to an OOC translation/transcription of what Achaeans would say in Achaean (a language that doesn't exist); but since we are transcribing it into (UK) English and the rules therein, doesn't it seem incongruous not to follow said conventions?

If I were to read a historical fiction book to do with the Romans, how jarring would it be to see dialogue like this:

Julius Caesar says to Mark Anthony, "We pwnd those Gauls lol."

Mark Anthony says to Julius Caesar, "Yeh. Can't wait to see Pompey's face. can you imagine? *grin*"

Oh, but it's written for a modern English audience (ooc)! They would obviously have said it in Latin (Achaean), which English readers (ooc players) don't understand. This just helps convey the message and meaning of what they (Achaeans) said to an modern English audience (ooc playerbase).

It sounds ridiculous, frankly.

Would support expressiveness on telepathic channels, so long as it's tone/mood only and not "smiles and says" or anything that would require you to be in that person's physical presence.

Sarapis

@Sybilla

Funnily, the consistent use of English accents in films/tv portraying Romans is a pet peeve of mine, as it's so arbitrary, and is exactly as accurate as using a French or American Southern accent for them, and probably a lot less accurate than using a central Italian accent. I would have -loved- to have seen the (now a few years off the air) show Rome discard with some of the pointless and stale conventions around portraying Romans and given them a different accent (Caesar with an old-school Brooklyn accent would have been awesome). 

Sounding ridiculous is a valid criticism of it, but isn't the same thing at all as it having anything to do with being RP or not. 

Asmodron

Will learn to speak pure Achaean from now on, no OOC-English. Got it.


(City): You say "Nish nok ta Sarapis kish qui lorie nok".


You have been issued for: Spam.

Sarapis

Asmodron said:

(City): You say "Nish nok ta Sarapis kish qui lorie nok".

No, I had nothing to do with the decrease in the brown rabbit population in the eastern Ithmia this year. Utheru gishrnaklistamopolis bnn! Makalakabee sillanmishza. Rotu. Heh.

Nieelensars

Sarapis said:

Asmodron said:

(City): You say "Nish nok ta Sarapis kish qui lorie nok".

No, I had nothing to do with the decrease in the brown rabbit population in the eastern Ithmia this year. Utheru gishrnaklistamopolis bnn! Makalakabee sillanmishza. Rotu. Heh.

Kresslack

My disagreement with this is the thin line between OOC and IC when it comes to channels as they are now. If we assume channels are a bit like tells, and we're simply able to tap into them on a telepathic level, then (to me at least) it wouldn't make sense to have emotion conveyed via these channels. If someone uses them in Says, that's different. We're there with the person in the room, and we can reasonably witness and gauge [as a character] what emotion they are wanting us to see portrayed. It's sort of like the difference between conveying intent in real life between actual speech and through another form of communication such as email or text. 

That our characters are speaking English essentially [when they speak on channels] doesn't really make sense to me. If I hear something come across Mhaldor's CT, I automatically register it as being in Mhaldorian. Any other IC channel associated with a clan, I consider they are simply speaking Common. So, that being said, not sure how I feel about the use of emoticons outside of their limited role right now in adding emphasis to Says. To me, I think moves away from better ways to convey how you feel if you're not face to face with someone, with using proper grammar, punctuation, and emphasis. Even while some of that is lost simply via text, it's usually easy enough to pick up on. 

For instance, if you add '??' at the end of a say, it turns it into a question. If you add '!!' it turns it into an exclamation. If you want tips on how to convey emotion via a channel, listen to any city denizen in their final moments before they are killed.

Sarapis

@Kresslack I think you're misunderstanding. Your characters are not speaking English. They're speaking, off in the realm of imagination, Achaean (or whatever language you have your character speaking). Your English communication is an OOC layer that lets you talk to other players, not to their characters directly. Part of the RP is the assumption that the characters are talking to each other, even though we all know we're talking to real people. 

Aktillum

I've always assumed my character is hearing the voices of citymates in his head, not just hearing their words as thoughts in his own brain or whatnot. So it would make sense for these voices to have expressiveness and the intonation of emotions, which can be portrayed through punctuation and grammar, but can be further enhanced with the expressiveness system.

Example:

(Eleusis): Ellodin says, "Gah! We're losing the battle!"

(Eleusis): Ellodin angrily says, "Gah! We're losing the battle!"

Mannimar

I could get behind this only if we limited it to emotions/expressions you can "hear". Culturally speaking, Achaean channels are typically telepathic. You don't hear smiles, frowns or scowls, but you can hear them express joy, sorrow, and anger. 

I'm not a fan of this suggestion as the "no emoticon" rule in speech has really influenced how I play the game, and ultimately how I use chat programs like Skype (I emote there, but a whole lot less). My writing and grammar has improved, and I find the eloquence of a complete sentence to be far more attractive than chat speak. 

Asmodron

Sarapis said:

Asmodron said:

(City): You say "Nish nok ta Sarapis kish qui lorie nok".

No, I had nothing to do with the decrease in the brown rabbit population in the eastern Ithmia this year. Utheru gishrnaklistamopolis bnn! Makalakabee sillanmishza. Rotu. Heh.

What'd you call my mother??!

Tharvis

Asmodron said:

Sarapis said:

Asmodron said:

(City): You say "Nish nok ta Sarapis kish qui lorie nok".

No, I had nothing to do with the decrease in the brown rabbit population in the eastern Ithmia this year. Utheru gishrnaklistamopolis bnn! Makalakabee sillanmishza. Rotu. Heh.

What'd you call my mother??!

he was asking you if he should regale you with the tale of "How I met your mother"

Jurixe

I have always seen telepathic communication as just that - a telepathic link between you and another person. Yes, it's primarily used to convey thoughts in words, but just like how people can gauge reactions through non verbal cues face to face, it makes sense to me that you might be able to discern amusement, fear, disgust and so on through simple emotion in a telepathic link - perhaps even more easily, since emotions are harder to hide from someone in your head.

I don't really understand the arguments against this. It's far better to have telepathic emotes and/or emoticons that are translated into an IC expression rather than the current *grin* or *smile* or whatever at the end of tells and IC messages. I just ignore them usually but I hate them. Maybe you could make it so that *grin* in a tell becomes something like 'You get a feeling of amusement from Person' or something pretty like that.

Tecton actually asked me to idea something similar a while ago but I forgot, so I'll do that later. If you do go with the option above, though, please don't make it for official channels. The last thing we need is 20 people spamming (City): Person laughs happily.

Cynlael

'Telepathic communication' is essentially just sharing thoughts with someone, though... Try thinking different emotions to yourself, and you'll see that the little voice inside your head stays the same, regardless of how loud/quiet/angry/happy/etc you try to be. I don't really see how it'd be any different if you were to push those thoughts into another's head.

Strata

Sarapis said:

Not sure why some of you WTF'd my post.

. . .

Were they all from Targossas? Don't let it get to you upset, happens to me all the time. :P

Anaidiana

I've always thought about the channels like speaking on a telephone. You aren't physically with the people you're speaking with, but you can hear emotions in their voice. If they cry, you hear it even if they're not saying anything, but sobbing violently. You can hear when someone is smiling as they speak, and if they laugh, you definitely hear that, or if they cough. We have the non-speak (I know I'm prone to responding with an ellipsis when someone says something particularly dumbfounding), so I feel that allowing an extra dimension to city tells (within reason) would only enhance the roleplay potential among the major orgs.

Accipiter

I have hated the no-emoticons on channels rule ever since it was implemented, simply because I use a lot of sarcasm and you can't get tone of voice right without completely ruining the line. Emoticons lets you keep the wording but show people you are also joking.

Also didn't help that they put them in and just after I got used to using them decided they weren't for public channels.

Sylvance

My personal experience is that ANY emoting on channels is immersion-breaking. Sure, people can give me a hundred reasons as to why it shouldn't be, but for me it is. Period. 

Quite possibly that's simply because I'm not used to it. My unease with this idea more boils down to my feelings as a writer/reader. When you can toss an emote or adverb at speech, you start to get lazy: 

"Are you serious?" he asked incredulously. 

vs.

"I... You just can't possibly mean that... Right?"

TL;DR: There are more (and better!) ways to be expressive than telling people that you're being expressive!

Aerek

In a text game where the nuances of non-verbal communication don't translate at all, I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny smidgeon of immersion to ensure my thoughts are accurately received.