How to Truly Keep Novices

Tharvis

I think they fixed that quest problem as well as they could with the new quest log though. Haven't had the chance to test it extensively so I could be wrong

Sybilla

Tvistor said:

correct me if I'm wrong, but:

1. The credit --> lesson conversion rate is 1:5. (not including the free lessons because I've forgotten what the rate is)

2. It's something in the range of 1600 lessons to trans something.

3. 1600/5 = 320 credits.

4. That's like $112 assuming you get them all at the best price ratio of the 200 credit package.

5. If you somehow got Subterfuge and Venoms trans'd without resorting to anything else, you'd still have to do Survival and Hypnosis for $224.

6. I might as well just buy one of these or the equivalent for whatever other hobby a person might have.

(That was a really general, probably inaccurate calculation, but I think the gist of it holds up. I don't think an Iron Membership is an ideal solution for the cost because it takes quite a few months of waiting.)

Per HELP LESSONS the conversion rate of Bound Credits to lessons is 1:6. A newbie these days (from what I've seen anyway) starts off with 170 lessons as soon as they're created and enter Achaea proper.

They also gain 5 lessons every level they hit, so that's 125 more lessons by the time they reach level 30 (I think. Crap at maths, sorry).

Then there's: You will be gifted with 2.5 bonus lessons for every Credit you choose to convert to a Bound Credit, for the first 1000 Credits you thus convert, totalling a possible 2500 bonus lessons.  (And obviously that requires obtaining unbound credits either IC or OOC)

Then on top of that they get Bound Credits at certain milestone levels which is a little convoluted but essentially:

Level         Bound Credits
-----         -------------
  7                5
 10                6
 15                7
 20                8

Continuing on up every 5 levels to level 95 for 23 bound credits, then jumping by two at level 100 for 25 bound credits.

Which again requires bashing to hell and back with limited resources.

So, let's say someone managed to stick around long enough to get to level 40. They started off with 170 lessons, would have gained another 175 by levelling alone (345 total), and 68 bound credits on top of that (5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 for levels 7, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40) which converted to lessons yield 408 if I'm not completely off the mark. And I -think- 753 lessons is enough to get up to Virtuoso skill rank. It takes 1738 to Transcend a skill, so you'd still come a thousand lessons short.

You probably would end up having to buy something ridiculous like 1000 credits (plus bonus idk) to make up 5214 lessons to trans 3 skills. Hell, 6952 if you want to trans Survival too.

And yes, there's House and City credit sales, and they can help to supplement it, but the amounts offered on the whole are rather low (what, 10, maybe 20 credits per round?) and it seems like you'd devote your whole early Achaea time to making up the money to even start to play your class like you'd want to. So much for novice interaction if they're out constantly trying to make up the money to learn their skills.

Now I made myself sad

Tvistor

And that's science!

Depending on how much money Achaea actually makes from lessons though, they may not be able to afford changing anything. A change would have to be really significant to begin making a difference.

People are going to want to trans at least enough for combat, which can be up to four/three skills for a lot of classes, and is probably two at the lower end. (Chivalry, Survival, maybe?). They aren't going to want to pay as much as they would for a regular game with actual graphics (about $90?) and even at $45 I have a feeling it could be a very hard sell, though it'd certainly help.

And, correct me again if I'm wrong since I trans'd out a while ago, but towards the end of a skill it generally takes more lessons between abilities? I remember the last stretch of subterfuge being reeeeally painful, but that was years ago and I was young/impatient, or at least more so than I am now.

Edit: I think it's disappointing that what I perceive to be the most important topic on the forums right now has so much less activity than ranting.

Feral

1000 credits = 8500 lessons (6 + 2.5 bonus) = $300

1 year of IRE membership = 1525 credits = 9150 lessons + up to 1825 bonus (if you log on every day) = $300

Level 1-100 = 291 credits = 1746 lessons + 500 lessons

To Trans a skill takes ~1700 lessons.

So if you invest 300$ into the game and play for a year and achieve level 100 you will end up with 13221 lessons = which is enough to trans 7 skills and have 1321 lessons left over.

This is about twice as much as you would spend if you maintained a WoW or EVE subscription for a year.

If you actually did bash up to 100 though you would end up with plenty of extra gold to get even more lessons. By using your IRE membership as your main source of credits you would still be able to get the 2.5 bonus lessons when you converted unbound credits to bound.

This also assumes you never take advantage of any promotion.

So yes, the cost is higher than other MMOs but not exorbitantly so and unlike those other games you can get a huge amount out of Achaea without needing to get involved in mid-high end combat.

Also your investment never goes away. I bought my first credit on feral over a decade ago (man I feel old) and I am still getting value from it today! That is amazing and something I think IRE should get major credit for.

Tharvis

IRE membership credits are bound by default though, right? @Feral

Nellaundra

Yeah, they're bound by default. But, that's the thing - we shouldn't -have- to pay a subscription on a game that advertises to be entirely free, just to get our basic fucking skills. And one of the things that Achaea advertises to be one of the greatest for, the roleplaying? Well, it's not the best there either, and I can get more in depth roleplaying in -actually- free games if I wanted. There are MUSHes out there with no real mechanics beyond crafting and the emote system, and they have better roleplaying with absolutely no cost, just very unobtrusive reminders that a donation would really help them out.

Honestly, if you want an easy fix? Sell lessons on the site. Or allow them to be bought directly with gold. Make them -much- cheaper than credits, and impossible to resell. Something like maybe 750 gold per lesson, if that. And that'd get IRE more money anyway.

Sarapis

Nellaundra said:

Honestly, if you want an easy fix? Sell lessons on the site. Or allow them to be bought directly with gold. Make them -much- cheaper than credits, and impossible to resell. Something like maybe 750 gold per lesson, if that. And that'd get IRE more money anyway.

They can already be bought with gold. Earn gold, go to credit market, buy credits, convert to lessons. That's what the credit market is there for.

Nellaundra

If you can't see the problem with the current credit market, then go ingame and type CFS at some point.  CFS is 100% pointless for any newbie with the costs being what they are.

Sarapis

100% pointless? I think you're going to have to be a little more realistic and ditch the bombast if you want to have a productive discussion.

You just suggested selling 6 lessons (ie one credit's worth) for 4500 gold (750 per lesson x 6).  A credit can be bought from CFS for between 6 and 7000 gold currently. Are you seriously suggesting that acquiring a lesson for 1100 gold is somehow "100% pointless" while acquiring a lesson for 32% cheaper (750 gold) is fundamentally different, rather than one simply being more expensive than the other?

Jacen

The credit market reflects the buying and selling habits of the upper tier gold-makers, so its well out of reach for the level 50 true-newb that wants to trans his first skill.

Feral

Tharvis said:

IRE membership credits are bound by default though, right? @Feral

Sorry what I wrote was not clear. If you buy 1k credits up front and convert them you use up your bonus lessons so you do not get them in the future when you convert credits you bought with gold. On the other hand if you get your lessons from the IRE membership then you keep your bonus lesson conversion on the first 1k credits you buy with gold. So if you are willing to be patient the IRE membership is the better long term deal.

@Nellaundra If you have no interest in PVP then you can get many of your core skills just from PVE. Specifically you can get 2246 lessons just from leveling, plus dragon (which is a huge upgrade and adds a bunch of RP options) plus anything you buy with gold. If you have no interest in PVE or PVP then you do not need any skills to produce rich and rewarding RP. In addition you have the bardics as a way to earn credits with pure artistic skill.

To me the cost of lessons and skills is not the key issue (artifacts on the other hand can get crazy expensive). I find the need for a complex system (mainly for defensive but for many classes you need a bunch of aliases for offense as well) and the ability to code the biggest barriers to participation in conflict. The HTML client is going a long way to address this and if it keeps going in that direction I think it will be a huge benefit to the game.

Nellaundra

Novices rarely if ever have more than around 3k gold once they leave the newbie areas, because, surprise, almost nothing else in the game has the same amount of gold return until you hit level 90+ or discover some really obscure quest.  It's not much of a change price-wise, no, but having it in bite size chunks instead of huge sets that they feel like they have to grind up to would be better.  That, and it'd be an actual gold sink given that the gold would vanish into the system never to be seen again instead of just going into another player's pocket. Can you explain what offering this would hurt for the game? Seriously, I don't see any issues, but I'm not an admin. Is there a problem with streamlining the lesson thing that I'm just not aware of?

@Feral, are you seriously suggesting that if they don't wanna buy credits, they should just grind to dragon? That's completely nonsensical. There is a -massive- dead zone for most classes where they don't have the skills they need to even survive hunting the things they're able to, but don't get xp from anything lower.  Which is why people tend to run gnolls until level 70+.  If you're interested in PvP (like I was at the start) then do you know how fucking disheartening it is to hear from literally everyone you ask for help with it that you can't do anything without a $20 system to cure yourself and about $300 in credits to be able to fight at all?

Adioro

Part of the problem with the credit market is the relative ease of gathering gold--between levels 21 and 80 it is quite literally nearly impossible to make any significant amount. Sure, Actar and Xai-whatever dale...if you can catch it in between the 200 other people camping it. Other methods exist and I'm sure there are a ton I don't know about--but that's my point. As new players, our access to gold is fairly non-existent.

And then people say we need gold sinks because high-end players have millions and no wonder credits cost so much on the market--we as newbies with our little 1-2k per hour are competing against that. CFS is new-player-inaccessible. I think what @Nellaundra was suggesting was removing that competition for new players to get initial important skills into their hands sooner.

edit: So something like, every new character can purchase so and so many lessons/bound credits at a reduced rate, whether that be reduced gold cost or reduced $$ cost. Maybe a one-time bonus to first credit purchase for a free 1k lessons, something like that.

Sarapis

We make substantial revenue off people buying credits to turn into lessons. When people buy from the credit market, they are directly stimulating demand for credits. Selling lessons for gold will reduce that demand, and reduce purchases as a result.

Nellaundra

You've sold lessons on the website before, was your revenue for that month significantly lower than the norm or something?

Feral

@Feral, are you seriously suggesting that if they don't wanna buy credits, they should just grind to dragon? That's completely nonsensical. There is a -massive- dead zone for most classes where they don't have the skills they need to even survive hunting the things they're able to, but don't get xp from anything lower.  Which is why people tend to run gnolls until level 70+.  If you're interested in PvP (like I was at the start) then do you know how fucking disheartening it is to hear from literally everyone you ask for help with it that you can't do anything without a $20 system to cure yourself and about $300 in credits to be able to fight at all?

I am at a complete loss as to how you need credits to survive in PVE.

Adioro

Feral said:

I am at a complete loss as to how you need credits to survive in PVE.

Without credits, at level 80, you end up not even quite trans a single skill. For many classes, this means you miss often, which gets you dead quite a lot. Assuming you focused on your attack skill (let's take monks for example and say tekura is near-trans), you also lack your defensive and utility abilities (kaido, for example), which are usually (though not always--see serpents and subterfuge) in another skillset.

While I wouldn't say you absolutely need credits to PvE, I would say with a fair amount of confidence that doing it without them is noticeably and considerably slower. At level 80, I can't hunt Quartz Peak as a serpent or a monk without investing in credits to gain survivability, for example, despite that about a dozen people told me it's a level 80 zone.

But maybe I'm doing it wrong. Idk.

Antonius

It seems like the problem is the gold that can be made from hunting and questing for the average player rather than the prices on CFS. Newbies go from making an actually decent amount of gold (it doesn't seem unusual for them to leave the new introduction with 20-30k to use to get initial equipment) to making next to nothing in a lot of areas up until they can clear out the high level areas.

A lot of areas could probably benefit from having their gold rewards looked at and increased, then being changed to scale based on the person's level against the level of the area. Being able to make a credit (or more) worth of gold in an hour, rather than making a credit every three to six hours, would help with the grind to learn skills via in-game means. The scaling is just there so there's no incentive for a high level player to blitz through a low level area in a couple of minutes for the gold.

Feral

Adioro said:

Feral said:

I am at a complete loss as to how you need credits to survive in PVE.

Without credits, at level 80, you end up not even quite trans a single skill. For many classes, this means you miss often, which gets you dead quite a lot. Assuming you focused on your attack skill (let's take monks for example and say tekura is near-trans), you also lack your defensive and utility abilities (kaido, for example), which are usually (though not always--see serpents and subterfuge) in another skillset.

While I wouldn't say you absolutely need credits to PvE, I would say with a fair amount of confidence that doing it without them is noticeably and considerably slower. At level 80, I can't hunt Quartz Peak as a serpent or a monk without investing in credits to gain survivability, for example, despite that about a dozen people told me it's a level 80 zone.

But maybe I'm doing it wrong. Idk.

I have over 100 days of playtime on feral. I am not yet level 80. I have full trans class skills and a few artifacts that assist in bashing. I can not tank the 4 stack of goblins in the goblin village. I have no idea how I would do at Quartz Peak but I assume I could handle it but it would just be very slow as I would have to run a lot. I have a few alts without trans skills and no artifacts, they are about equal to feral in bashing ability. Honestly if anything I should be the one complaining that my patronage of the game has not allowed me to advance as fast as a character with only novice level skills (for the record I am not, but I do find it rather hilarious).

Just because someone who has spent money on the game can do something faster does not mean you NEED credits.

The biggest difference I see these days from when I first played is the large amount of entitlement that many players seem to have. Yeah yeah I had to walk up hill both ways in the snow when I was young but still, relax and enjoy the game a bit.

So as to avoid getting this thread more off topic I am not going to say anymore about the cost of playing the game. I find it entirely reasonable (with the exception of some artifacts) and we are just going to remain in disagreement on this subject.

Sylvance

What I don't get, other than the disproportionate level of rage that this thread is generating, is the continual inference that you somehow need credits to play/enjoy Achaea. Perhaps I'm not in a position to really speak about this as somebody with an income that has actually spent money on the game, but I really don't see how you can question whether it's free-to-play.

Can you do everything in Achaea without spending a penny? Yes.

Can you do everything in Achaea right now without spending a penny? No.

You also DO NOT need tri-trans to enjoy the game.

Trey

Speaking from the perspective of someone who spent a minimal amount of money on Achaea before I earned all the crap I have (level 3 rapiers, 9 trans skills, sip ring, hammer of forging, 3 pipes, ton of random Shop of Wonders stuff), it isn't necessary to purchase credits with actual cash to get into the game. @Sylvance has a great point with the last few statements in that post that can be summed up in a simple statement: People seem to be confusing instant gratification with the concept of what is necessary to play the game and enjoy it.

Now, I've spent a fair bit of money after all of that on globes, but that's more because I wanted to support the game I was playing and it was an appealing promotion, not because I needed it to play.

Carmell

I guess I don't understand why the young ones these days aren't doing what we did when we were young.  I spent hours upon hours of hunting rats inside the city and selling them to Hakhim so that i could make gold to buy the items that I needed.  I know in Targossas we very often supply the young ones with a lot of the things that they need at the start.  So that gold isn't being put into those things they could be throwing them into credits to learn more of their skills.  Get out there young ones and hunt up those rats or catch those butterflies.

Jacen

I don't think the question is whether its possible to have "fun" or get hooked without spending RL money on the game, but whether more than 1 out of 500 newbies will do it. 

Adioro

Not to be rude, offensive, or dismissive, because don't get me wrong I actually enjoy a good grind and I did in fact hunt up to 80 in a matter of 10-14 days or so, but saying 'just go perform a mind-numbingly repetitive task for hundreds of hours on end' isn't really a great way to 'truly keep novices', as per the OP.

Carmell

Well that's how i started out and I've been here for what almost 10 years now?  And i know quite a few of us have done the same thing. If you get it all handed to you then your likely to disappear that much faster in my opinion.  Not to be rude but i've seen many come and go over the years. I even took a long break but i was pulled back in because of the atmosphere here in Achaea.  Sarapis thank you for bringing me something that I can enjoy.  when it gets to much walk away from and come back again later with no real losses.

Feral

Antonius said:

A lot of areas could probably benefit from having their gold rewards looked at and increased, then being changed to scale based on the person's level against the level of the area. Being able to make a credit (or more) worth of gold in an hour, rather than making a credit every three to six hours, would help with the grind to learn skills via in-game means. The scaling is just there so there's no incentive for a high level player to blitz through a low level area in a couple of minutes for the gold.

I have no idea what would happen but I can speculate.

This change would drastically inflate the gold going into the economy. Right now the high end gold generation rate is limited by the number of people who have access to it (though this number is growing over time). If you give that gold generation to basically the entire player base then the credit market would inflate prices in response. As everyone would have an easier time making gold fewer people would buy credits to sell them for gold. This would further drive up credit prices. Eventually I think it would settle out so that it would be worse for everyone.

Your solution would only work if the price for a credit was a fixed value.

I do agree though that it is a huge shock to go from the gold generation of the newbie areas to the desert that the mid level game is.

I have no suggestions for a fix but then again I am also terrible at earning gold.

Carmell

Feral said:

Antonius said:

A lot of areas could probably benefit from having their gold rewards looked at and increased, then being changed to scale based on the person's level against the level of the area. Being able to make a credit (or more) worth of gold in an hour, rather than making a credit every three to six hours, would help with the grind to learn skills via in-game means. The scaling is just there so there's no incentive for a high level player to blitz through a low level area in a couple of minutes for the gold.

I have no idea what would happen but I can speculate.

This change would drastically inflate the gold going into the economy. Right now the high end gold generation rate is limited by the number of people who have access to it (though this number is growing over time). If you give that gold generation to basically the entire player base then the credit market would inflate prices in response. As everyone would have an easier time making gold fewer people would buy credits to sell them for gold. This would further drive up credit prices. Eventually I think it would settle out so that it would be worse for everyone.

Your solution would only work if the price for a credit was a fixed value.

I do agree though that it is a huge shock to go from the gold generation of the newbie areas to the desert that the mid level game is.

I have no suggestions for a fix but then again I am also terrible at earning gold.

If you look at it from an inflation point of view CFS hasn't really risen all that much over 10 years.  When i was a newbie you could by credits at 3k per now it's just over 6k per.  I mean the price of gas has gone up more then that quicker then that.

Adioro

Another point I think is worth making is that saying 'well back 10 RL years ago we just ratted for the skills we needed' is that there are more skills, and a higher 'entry barrier' to many activities--that is, competing against people who have ratted for the last 10 RL years means new players will never catch up, since 10 RL years from now the other people will have ratted for 20. It is so easy to take things for granted or assume some things are intuitive when we already know them, when those things maybe actually aren't.

Antonius

Carmell said:

I guess I don't understand why the young ones these days aren't doing what we did when we were young.  I spent hours upon hours of hunting rats inside the city and selling them to Hakhim so that i could make gold to buy the items that I needed.  I know in Targossas we very often supply the young ones with a lot of the things that they need at the start.  So that gold isn't being put into those things they could be throwing them into credits to learn more of their skills.  Get out there young ones and hunt up those rats or catch those butterflies.

They can do it, but why should they have to? It's incredibly boring, and not exactly a social activity. You're not even getting the benefits of exploring and seeing the lore of different areas, since you're just walking around and around your city (or its sewers) over and over killing rats.

Credit prices are also over double what they were when I was a novice, so the amount of grinding (which would have been ridiculous back then) is over twice what it once was.

Morthif

Adioro said:

Another point I think is worth making is that saying 'well back 10 RL years ago we just ratted for the skills we needed' is that there are more skills, and a higher 'entry barrier' to many activities--that is, competing against people who have ratted for the last 10 RL years means new players will never catch up, since 10 RL years from now the other people will have ratted for 20. It is so easy to take things for granted or assume some things are intuitive when we already know them, when those things maybe actually aren't.

You aren't meant o catch up. there are a lot of things that older players have done that you will never experience. This game isn't about everyone being the same. It's all about what you story will be. If it's to hard for you then maybe warcraft is more your speed. Achaea takes a lot of commitment and making it any less so cheapens the experience.