How to Truly Keep Novices

Wynedere

Copied from the Rants thread:

I still don't understand why the admin don't offer more incentive for training novices. New players are essential to a game that seeks to produce a profit. You can only rely on older players so much before they become bored with the game and move on. New players = more profit. Why not give some sort of credit award for novice aides and HoNs who actually do the job? Something like what they do with the guide system might be better. 

Edit: Dealing with novices is generally an awful job. And yes, it is a job. Players should be rewarded for helping IRE earn more profits when novices enjoy themselves enough to stick around and buy credits.

In order to keep the novices that you attract through advertising and word-of-mouth, it's important to remember what actually makes them want to stay. Above all the shiny features Achaea offers, interaction is the backbone of this game. Without seasoned players, novices are basically on their own. Seasoned players become burned out when they feel they've wasted their time training and interacting with novices who are either alts or simply don't stick around. There seriously needs to be motivation. 

I feel that if IRE were to begin a system of -proper- reward for all players who help novices, newer players would heavily benefit from it and end up sticking around. What you have now just isn't enough.  

Naah

I feel like this could potentially be abused.
I mean, we already have people with an alt in every city for a specific House.

No matter how bad they try to act in the first stages, you kind of notice they were faking when a week later they're level 70~80 but still HR2. Then they just suicide when they're bored.

Perhaps create standards? Like when they become a full member, the HoN, the Mentor, and the protege all get some form of reward? Then when they hit Logosian? I dunno, shooting stuff out there. I have an Eleusian and a Cyrenian (And proud) Naah will always be my main, but I make it obvious I'm not new. Not in your face new, but I don't drag out their time. I show them I'm 'a fast learner' and I fly through my orientation, yet maintain respect. Unfortunately there would be no way to make a system that could discern true new players from experienced alts.

Adioro

It would be much easier for cities/houses to reward people who work with their novices. They have a much clearer idea of what's going on, who is genuinely helpful, and who is gaming the system than any mechanically enforced system could have. Of course, that's open to an entirely different type of exploit.

Naah

At least increase how much credits the mentor gets with the newbie depending on how long the newbie stays around to maybe a cap of 15~20%?
I feel like it's a lost cause mentoring, I would be terrible at it, but that's just me.
I salute you, o' mentors.

Feral

Great thread.

I first bought credits specifically to reward the awesome mentor I had when I first started. That said I agree that the current mentor system is very hit and miss on both sides of the equation.

I have always toyed around with the idea of giving new players the ability to recommend someone for recognition. This would come in the form of a simple set of questions that would be triggered the first X hours of play time, or perhaps times logged on, or levels gained, or any other significant milestones. The names collected from the survey would then go into a "newbie helper" rankings type thing that would result in a reward for the top placements each month. You could also give someone a reward for placing in the rankings X number of times even if they never made it to the top in a given month. You could even modify the weight of a vote if you wanted (less for an alt perhaps? A bonus for the chars who bought credits?).

The question would be something like "Who has helped you the most or been the reason why you have continued to login?" and then they could pick if they wanted to keep the response anonymous.

While the system could be gamed I think over time it would serve to reward those who helped new players.

Sena

Since referring someone (which doesn't require nearly as much of an investment as mentoring) is massively more rewarding than being a mentor (10% of the referred players credit purchases, on any character in any IRE game, forever), I don't see anything wrong with raising the mentor rewards. At the very least, the four purchase limit should be removed, so the mentor can get the full bonus even if the protege starts with smaller purchases. I don't think it would be unreasonable to extend it beyond the first 1000 credits either, maybe at a lower rate (5% for the first 1000, 1% of all purchases after that, for example).

I think rewards other than credits would probably be better, though. Experience (either direct experience gain or an experience bonus), or... I can't actually think of anything besides experience, credits, or gold, but I'm sure there are other possibilities.

I like the idea of some sort of wage for city/house novice helper positions. Sure, this can be done already without admin involvement, but an explicit push towards it (maybe with an automated system for it, with cities and houses able to set specific monthly/yearly payments for each position) would probably help a lot.

Kuy

I haven't read any of this, but it's a common thing where I'm from.

Rewards for the HoN is a BAD idea. It takes away from the desire to help novices by creating a position that gives you tangible rewards. It doesn't matter how much you trust the playerbase, your house, or even your patron - someone WILL abuse this, and the only ones who suffer are the true newbies.

It's just a bad idea.

Better rewards for mentors are a good thing, though.

Kyrra

Helping people should be reward enough.

Sabah

It's a nice thought, but we don't need people signing up to aide for the perks, which is inevitably what would happen. HF and CFs for aides who put in the work and time confer benefits in most orgs. It is a job, and it's not easy, but also - people who don't want to be doing it shouldn't be doing it. And perks up those numbers.

edited to add: Also, novice aiding and most other forms of aiding, which all involve a LOT of thankless work (I think novice aides just tend to be the most visible/the largest group), confers benefits in the sense of helping people climb the political ladder in their org most of the time. There are people who just do it as a step up in that sense.

Tharvis

don't forget about the psychological effect, where if there is no -known- reward for helping people, the person in the position will be more likely to help of his own volition. Whereas if there's a known reward, he'll help less.

This might not make sense, but has been proven to be correct throughout many psychological experiments.

Blujixapug

Kyrra said:

Helping people should be reward enough.

It goes both ways tho. The reward for not helping newbies is that you don't have to deal with newbies, which is way better a reward.

Sabah

Unless you're a sick, twisted soul who for some bizarre reason LIKES helping newbies.

Um, I mean, I have a friend who is like that. I'm tooooootally normal. Totally.

Kyrra

I did novice work because I enjoyed it and liked helping out. I never had a mentor but don't feel like I missed out on anything. It didn't stop me asking questions or getting help with things. I don't even mentor people myself but I am always happy to help out where I can. Never been in it for perks or rewards, and frankly don't want them. Some people just appreciate the help and move on to do the same when they are able to. It's not something for everyone though. Don't like it, don't do it.

Shadrac

I did have a mentor @Vasriia - who kicked so much dick it wasn't even funny.  She is probably one of the sole reasons that I stuck with this game and in my short time here have spent... uhmm... way, way, way, way, way too much money on it buying credits.

I have often thought that I wish she got at least some percentage of all my buys - even if it was only 5%.

So yes, I would be for a change like this.

Orzaansyn

Mentors get credits from your buys.

Trey

Shadrac said:

I did have a mentor @Vasriia - who kicked so much dick it wasn't even funny.  She is probably one of the sole reasons that I stuck with this game and in my short time here have spent... uhmm... way, way, way, way, way too much money on it buying credits.

I have often thought that I wish she got at least some percentage of all my buys - even if it was only 5%.

So yes, I would be for a change like this.

You heard it here first, folks. Three cheers for dick kicks. Also @Orzaansyn, the mentor only gets 5% up to a maximum of 50cr.

Shadrac

Orzaansyn said:

Mentors get credits from your buys.

Aye, as Trey said and I had put - I wish she got a percentage of all my buys.

Orzaansyn

Shadrac said:

Orzaansyn said:

Mentors get credits from your buys.

Aye, as Trey said and I had put - I wish she got a percentage of all my buys.

If you are pleased with your mentor, you can give them credits directly to reward them. Or anything else.

Orzaansyn

@Sylvance Don't get me wrong. I do not mean at all it should be the norm or that I mentor newbies to get their credits. I simply state that if @Shadrac liked so much his Mentor that he wanted that they get rewarded with credits, he could give them directly. And when I say "Or anything else", I actually mean things that are not costy but are very appreciated. The head of an enemy, design a ritual, write a poem... Anything that is not a requirement but requires time and work and means "thank you".

Wysteria

Some proteges I had (all dormant damn you) used to give me flowers as thank you. Then again, everyone keeps giving me flowers...must be the name or something.

I'm with @Kyrra here in that the reward is knowing you helped in some way or form to the novice. Being a mentor or a novice is a selfless, thankless job but keep in mind if you RP it out right, you always will have some kind of impact on them. Even if it's a lolalt or just someone who wants to tear through the reqs and be left alone, the back of their minds will have some memory that you weren't a complete bigot to their first virtual steps.

True novices I've found are easier to deal with. I'm all for them joining another House or even city if it means they won't be miserable and can advance as a character. Wysteria even tells them that because she respects their choices and find their own path. Sure we might just be the stepping stone, but you can't make em stay in your House if they're going to be a crap fit. You wouldn't know that at 18.

Sylvance

Orzaansyn said:

@Sylvance Don't get me wrong. I do not mean at all it should be the norm or that I mentor newbies to get their credits. I simply state that if @Shadrac liked so much his Mentor that he wanted that they get rewarded with credits, he could give them directly. And when I say "Or anything else", I actually mean things that are not costy but are very appreciated. The head of an enemy, design a ritual, write a poem... Anything that is not a requirement but requires time and work and means "thank you".

Okay, well I'm with you on that, @Orzaansyn

Jurixe

I honestly don't really think there's a good way to resolve this issue. It's all very well to say 'well if you don't like it, don't do it' which has some truth to it because you don't want people half-assing it and ruining some poor newbie's experience, but at the same time that just means that even less people step up and help with newbies, and the people who do put in some effort burn out even faster/get resentful that they have to spend their time on all these newbies without any time for themselves. No matter how much you love helping newbies, it can often feel quite unfair in that sense.

At the same time, giving a tangible reward for people does open it to abuse, I agree. I'm too tired to think of a solution for it, though. I'll be brutally honest - I do really like helping newbies and playing a part in their experience, but I'm so tired when I get home these days that if I'm on Achaea, I just want to sit and fish or do my own thing and the last thing I want to do is spend time answering newbie questions for someone who may or may not be a lolalt/not stick around. It sucks hard for the people who do give their all for newbies and I feel guilty enough to help out with generic questions, but yeah dedicated novice-helping is just beyond me right now and, I'd guess, for a lot of other people that work crazy hours too.

Feral

Sure teaching can be it's own reward but I don't understand why there should be resistance to rewarding those who help the most.

PVP is it's own reward yet they get ranked, recognized, and rewarded.

Writing is it's own reward yet you can get a bunch of credits from bardics.

I agree with @kuy that just paying all novice heads/aides is a bad idea but I still think there are solutions that remove much of the abuse potential (my proposal earlier in the thread is just one idea, I am sure there are others).

Averi

None of my proteges have ever stuck around.  All of them suicided or died or something after a few months. 

However, I've unofficially mentored a bunch of people and it was sort of fun and all. But then after an rl year of that, I just got tired of saying the same thing over and over, doing the same actions, helping with the same triggers, linking people the same scripts and stuff. So I climbed rank in my house and was allowed to stop and new people took over and newer people took over once the new people got bored of it, etc. @Sabah is seriously really great by the way.

The new trial thing helped immensely when it comes to in game knowledge. The newbies who I see now seem to spend a lot less time floundering than the ones I used to see.  IRE, you guys are awesome for that.  

The scripts part still isn't as intuitive but I think a lot more newbies stick with HTML5 now and I no longer push them to get mudlet because that interface is pretty awesome. I hear trigger and alias making isn't too hard on the HTML as well.

The nice thing about the current system is that people who come in and are alts, they simply really don't need that much help and probably won't really ask for it.  In short, the way to not waste time as a mentor on alts is to check in on everyone often but not spend too much time answering questions unless they ask about things.  If they begin asking things that are well-known, they are probably new and need a lot of help. Otherwise they are probably an alt.

With newer people, the trial and all its remaining quests usually has them covered for the basics.  And with newer people who want to stay, they will ask questions about things that aren't so basic like how other people cure so quickly and whatever once they get the hang of the realms. Then I can guide them towards mudlet and how to set up omnipave or svo or whatever they want to do.  It's a lot less time waste-y than before.  

Therefore, mentoring is sort of a residual thing.  It's really not too necessary anymore.  However, I find that it's sort of nice to have as an RP touch.  I'd suggest that we remove mentoring rewards entirely and instead lift the age/amount of experience at which one can still get a mentor (the opposite of what the OP was pushing).  Some people have asked me who have not been out of the flame (i suppose it's a dungeon now) for more than one or two ig years but they've figured the game out enough to no longer be able to get a mentor.  It also gives them more time to find a mentor who can serve as a friend, match them in time zones and all that good stuff.  I try to encourage newbies to get to know the house first before getting a mentor instead of choosing the first person who speaks to them but the current mentor system doesn't really allow that.

Tvistor

I keep them in my basement with lots of rope and soundproofed walls.

Mishgul

@Tvistor I feel compelled to tell you that your signature should specify the back side of the ribcage, and not the front side.

As for the OP, no one is compelled to help novices, and it's not required of anyone to help. It's purely a volunteer role. It's generally not the role of the HoN to do more than just advertise the house to new players. As a seasoned player, I could not care less who the head of novices in house x that I make an alt in is. If the game is interesting playing in the role that I choose to play in, that is what will keep me playing. 

Someone who just started the game will probably need social interaction to get them hooked. The HoN is definitely not going to provide them with this in the majority of the current houses. It's too much of a "me" position, I see it as more of a deputy houseleader position in it's current incarnation which is kind of silly. It's rare enough to find people who can inspire a wide array of people in the real world, let alone in such a small game such as Achaea. The position could probably just be re envisioned as a head of the people who look after novices position. Catering for all the novices is definitely a group task.

There are already benefits from helping novices. I think someone calculated that you break even if you hunt as a group as mentor/protege from the same house. (considering that you also hunt faster as two people, the xp you get in theory is a lot more over time than individually). 50 cr is a lot of money also. 20 dollars i think? Considering I spend about an hour roughly (if the novice is really difficult), training a novice that's not a bad return if they stick around and buy credits. IRE has no reason to pay you to train a novice that isn't going to stick around, so if you do the Lord's work and it pays off, you would get it back in theory.

Paying someone solely for doing something that may not get IRE any return seems like it would be bad for business. If people start competing over training novices, how would that help the organisations and keeping them intact in the game?

tl:dr I think the system is fine, people should be nice to each other. All Hail Cnut The Great

Naah

Mishgul said:

@Tvistor I feel compelled to tell you that your signature should specify the back side of the ribcage, and not the front side.

As for the OP, no one is compelled to help novices, and it's not required of anyone to help. It's purely a volunteer role. It's generally not the role of the HoN to do more than just advertise the house to new players. As a seasoned player, I could not care less who the head of novices in house x that I make an alt in is. If the game is interesting playing in the role that I choose to play in, that is what will keep me playing. 

Someone who just started the game will probably need social interaction to get them hooked. The HoN is definitely not going to provide them with this in the majority of the current houses. It's too much of a "me" position, I see it as more of a deputy houseleader position in it's current incarnation which is kind of silly. It's rare enough to find people who can inspire a wide array of people in the real world, let alone in such a small game such as Achaea. The position could probably just be re envisioned as a head of the people who look after novices position. Catering for all the novices is definitely a group task.

There are already benefits from helping novices. I think someone calculated that you break even if you hunt as a group as mentor/protege from the same house. (considering that you also hunt faster as two people, the xp you get in theory is a lot more over time than individually). 50 cr is a lot of money also. 20 dollars i think? Considering I spend about an hour roughly (if the novice is really difficult), training a novice that's not a bad return if they stick around and buy credits. IRE has no reason to pay you to train a novice that isn't going to stick around, so if you do the Lord's work and it pays off, you would get it back in theory.

Paying someone solely for doing something that may not get IRE any return seems like it would be bad for business. If people start competing over training novices, how would that help the organisations and keeping them intact in the game?

tl:dr I think the system is fine, people should be nice to each other. All Hail Cnut The Great

Holy God, he said more than five words.

Tharvis

Does this mean he found his orange juice?

Mishgul

Adioro

Sorry if this is a stupid question of if I'm missing something glaringly obvious, but why does nearly everyone -lament- the presence of alts in their orgs? And, worse, why do people allow the possibility of an alt (which is negative I guess for some reason I don't get?) to color their interaction with any newbie?

As someone who worked with a load of novices over a long period in another IRE, I never really had a problem with alts coming into my orgs. At worst, they progressed quickly and gave the other newbies a rival to aspire to. Sure, sometimes it created a bit of bitterness or inferiority complex, but in general the 'real' newbies who felt that would've found another cause for the same eventually anyway. It's just something you learn to counsel for as an org leader. At best, alts tend to require less attention, suck up fewer resources,  and give back to the org sooner.

I see some association with alts and not sticking around a lot in this thread and a lot of other ones--why is that? I would think it would be the opposite. When an established character makes an alt, sure, it might be to check something out, but knowing what they're looking to find out, it's unlikely that alt will stay for more than one session. An alt does that come back more than once probably has a player who is looking for something new. Why wouldn't people be eager to grab them up while they're dislocated?

For some reason, it seems to me (and I may be miles off) that many of the people who post or who profess to help novices believe that there's some sort of static mandatory list of things to do with each and every novice, IG I've even suggested adding some things to the novice experience in my city and been told 'well experienced novices won't like that', and I was literally speechless. Mostly because I didn't want to be rude and respond with 'then you're doing it wrong' or something equally pretentious--but honestly, if you don't have the ability to interact with a novice in a manner where you can tell whether or not you need to sit them down and give them the IC/OOC talk or walk them through their newbie class abilities, why are you putting yourself in a position where you're working with them?

This 'fear' of alts is just...really baffling to me. There is no reason not to treat every newbie as though they were 100% new to Achaea and to MUDs, and then skim over the things they pick up quickly or already know. I'm not sure why it's considered okay or even the norm to treat all newbies like alts instead.

All this negativity toward newbies (fostered by some irrational fear of alts, I guess) is very very much a self-fulfilling thing. Newbies never stick around -> why bother helping them -> newbies not sticking around -> newbies never stick around ->>>>> etc.


Sorry, that got a bit longer than I intended and is a bit ranty. Disclaimer: I didn't mean any of this to be offensive, and a lot of it genuinely is sparked by me not understanding some of the mentalities displayed both on the forums and IC.

Sarapis

Would love to find a way to better directly reward people who help true novices get into Achaea, but don't see any automatic or admin-led way to do it, or we would have already. Mentor credits are limited because otherwise any alt buying credits is going to mentor a buddy, and that buddy gets lots of free credits for no reason. 

However, every House and City in the game is already getting 5% and 3% respectively of their citizens' credit purchases in perpetuity for precisely this reason - so that the people in the organization who actually do the work can be rewarded by the city/house leadership, who are in a much better position to judge and reward the efforts of their members than the admin is, and arguably, getting and keeping novices is the single most important thing an organization can do if its members want it to be vibrant over a long period of time.

So to the OP, I'd say that you need to get on your House or City leadership, or vote in new leadership, because we gave them the tools to do exactly what you're talking about. 

(Should also note, as a couple people have said, that the new novice system is designed in large part to reduce the tediousness of teaching novices, and the city/house tasks Tecton is working on have a similar goal.)