Sylvan Combat: How does it work?

Valdus

So, I have zero experience with Sylvans. I'm a bit familiar with Druids, but I have no idea how Elementalism ties in with Groves.

Recently, @Naah was posting he's being splatted by artifcated Sylvans, and it made me curious.

How do Sylvans typically fight and what strategies do they employ?

What possibilities do heavily artifacted Sylvans have that non-artifacted ones do not?

How well can other classes nullify both artifacted and non-artifacted Sylvan offenses?

Naisar

Use thornrend & vinewreathe to prep legs and torso.

Break leg, knock prone.

Break other leg.

Heartseed.

Break torso.

Twiddle thumbs and wait for the futile flailing to subside.

You can get a lot of mileage as Sylvan by figuring out how their heartseed anti-illusion works.  If they try and cure it off the first message then you can abuse that to get ahead of salves, if they wait for the second line to decide it's real then you can just break torso & heartseed.  Or a lot of other things, really.

Wessux

Effectively

Jovolo

1. Naisar said how they work offensively. Basic heartseed prep that will kill a lot of people right there. It's not that simple without a diadem though, because you're simply too slow (they're already standing by the time you regain eq from heartseed.) So it requires a little bit of extra thought.

2. As mentioned above, a diadem can be a game changer, giving you a lot more wiggle room for errors. You also ramp up the damage to extraordinary levels, with Sylvans easily reaching 18 int, and that's not even including an icon, favours or ANY artifacts. The best part about this is that with the aforementioned int level, you can have at minimum 14 con. When you compound artifacts those levels can reach insane amounts - With a collar, you're basically doing a quicker Kai Choke (with maybe 5% less damage - that you make up for with the damage from Hail Storm, Bees and Efreeti) every 2.2 seconds. You won't even get to the stage where you can try heartseeding against most. Wildgrowth and freeze ground make it very hard to run away, too. It is also very good defensively:
Aerial
Vigour
Reflections
Sandling
Panacea
Illusions
Barkskin

3. If you can tank the damage (you need to be near Dragon level with noticeable class resistances for this) then heartseed is simple to prevent ala vivisect. Not many people know how though, so you can effectively guarantee kills on a lot of people.

Valdus

Excellent information Jovolo. Thank you.

What about against the top 10% of combatants? How does Sylvan fare against those people?

Jovolo

You could win combat rankings with it easily with some skill, especially if you have artifacts. I'm not sure how to answer that question because it's quite vague - it matters who the opponent is and what class they are, for example. It's perfectly viable though, if you can put the pressure on throughout your prep so you don't spend time defending yourself, which translates into time you aren't spending being outpaced by their prep or momentum. If they survive throughout your prep, then your execution is really just mind games. Which are complex to describe...

Basically it does well enough! You have all the defensive and offensive potential you need.

Naah

Valdus said:

So, I have zero experience with Sylvans. I'm a bit familiar with Druids, but I have no idea how Elementalism ties in with Groves.

Recently, @Naah was posting he's being splatted by artifcated Sylvans, and it made me curious.

How do Sylvans typically fight and what strategies do they employ?

What possibilities do heavily artifacted Sylvans have that non-artifacted ones do not?

How well can other classes nullify both artifacted and non-artifacted Sylvan offenses?

OMG.

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK I'M A MAN.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

EDIT:

@Jovolo I didn't even get prepped, they just rended me and bees/hailstorm finished me off. Like, the damage just made me go kaboom about 30 seconds in. I numbed and tumbled out, kai heal and tranfusion. KA-SPLAT. Lmao. Sireni Viridians hurt. :<

Wessux

Naah said:

Valdus said:

So, I have zero experience with Sylvans. I'm a bit familiar with Druids, but I have no idea how Elementalism ties in with Groves.

Recently, @Naah was posting he's being splatted by artifcated Sylvans, and it made me curious.

How do Sylvans typically fight and what strategies do they employ?

What possibilities do heavily artifacted Sylvans have that non-artifacted ones do not?

How well can other classes nullify both artifacted and non-artifacted Sylvan offenses?

OMG.

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK I'M A MAN.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

EDIT:

@Jovolo I didn't even get prepped, they just rended me and bees/hailstorm finished me off. Like, the damage just made me go kaboom about 30 seconds in. I numbed and tumbled out, kai heal and tranfusion. KA-SPLAT. Lmao. Sireni Viridians hurt. :<

My bad, I also thought you were sporting a penis.

Valdus

Sorry @Naah, it wasn't anything personal. I just read your forum name as the word "Naah" as in "Naah man, I don't want to go to school today." rather than an actual name. It's definitely more feminine than masculine.

Shecks

I was unsure if this was intentional...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ix_Ek'_Naah

Shecks

@Valdus many of us are still searching for that mythical escape tactic from heartseed (kinda like the theory that surviving an artied monk double leg break is possible).  I'm starting to lean towards the idea that they're just starting rumors that it exists (like bigfoot) to placate the onlookers.

Until then, I just (attempt to) run like hell if they break even a single limb (takes about 8 seconds), and spam diagnose when your torso is about to go.

Mithridates

Shecks said:

@Valdus many of us are still searching for that mythical escape tactic from heartseed (kinda like the theory that surviving an artied monk double leg break is possible).  I'm starting to lean towards the idea that they're just starting rumors that it exists (like bigfoot) to placate the onlookers.

Until then, I just (attempt to) run like hell if they break even a single limb (takes about 8 seconds), and spam diagnose when your torso is about to go.

Quite often, I survive artied monk double-leg breaks. I don't often die to BBT or AXK if I'm fighting a monk 1v1. I think it's happened twice. And @Naah was one of them!

Jovolo

Um, I posted how to avoid heartseed in the "heartseed op" thread from a while back. The same people that complain it's impossible to prevent are probably the same ones that think the same thing about vivisect.

i.e. system reliance.

Penwize

Honestly, all you have to do to avoid the above mentioned heartseed kill is not apply resto when your torso is prepped and the Sylvan has balance/eq.  That is, it's fine to apply when they break leg/swing staff, but don't apply to that second leg without either tumbling out first (and applying when you leave so they can't see it to trigger heartseed), hindering with some kind of prone hinder (if you have one) at the same time as the apply, or fake the apply with a mending and then apply resto to torso.  This is very, very similar to how vivisect requires caution with resto applies, and it ultimately means you need to either code that into your system or manual it.  Definitely not OP though.

Kafziel

@Shecks I also told you how to avoid the basic heartseed prep just by modifying your system/prios. Don't even need to fake apply or think about it. (touch tree/stand/parry torso/shield after heartseed)

Valdus

Penwize said:

Honestly, all you have to do to avoid the above mentioned heartseed kill is not apply resto when your torso is prepped and the Sylvan has balance/eq.  That is, it's fine to apply when they break leg/swing staff, but don't apply to that second leg without either tumbling out first (and applying when you leave so they can't see it to trigger heartseed), hindering with some kind of prone hinder (if you have one) at the same time as the apply, or fake the apply with a mending and then apply resto to torso.  This is very, very similar to how vivisect requires caution with resto applies, and it ultimately means you need to either code that into your system or manual it.  Definitely not OP though.

But still Grr Grr Chainsaw Monster, right?

Penwize

Valdus said:

But still Grr Grr Chainsaw Monster, right?

Right!  Sylvans are certainly strong and look like a lot of fun to play, but I really would not call them OP at the moment.

Rangor

I wanna play Sylvan to make people smash their keyboards in frustration.

(Although no way to survive when prone kinda sucks, I'd miss my tumble behind nooses button.)

Kafziel

Rangor said:

I wanna play Sylvan to make people smash their keyboards in frustration.

(Although no way to survive when prone kinda sucks, I'd miss my tumble behind nooses button.)

Sandling?

Mithridates

Sandling is terribad. Can't do anything in it. 

Essentially, I use sandling when i'm bashing and I really want a cigarette. 

Jovolo

Sandling used to be fucking amazing. Basically a more restricted (room type) remove shackle+balloon. Escape while prone and double broken vs Artied Monks? Yes please.

I heard it no longer works with broken limbs though. Too bad.

nevermind it does still work while prone and broken.

Kafziel

http://pastebin.com/3GYjFSXz

Aegoth

the only thing that sucks with sandling is that it's very very environmentally restricted. Other than that, it kicks so much ass

Jhui

sounds like a bug, has anyone bugged this?

Jovolo

Definitely not a bug though. Stopped by crippled/broken/mangled arms, need both free. Restricted to a specific environment.

Shecks

I don't think Sylvan is OP.  I just think it's a very, very durable class, that has a massive output, and several decent kill methods, all of which are pretty simple to accomplish (and all of which are more or less preventable).  If anything, I'm happy that the class finally got boosted, it really was pretty bad for a long time.  @Kafziel I've since modified my priorities considerably, and set up conditional swapping of a few things (a work still in progress).  It's made me much better against sylvans so far, and I'd definitely say that surviving them is possible.  The more advanced setups are a lot tougher to deal with than the simple leg/leg/heartseed/torso though, but also take (slightly) longer to set up.  I think it's fine - the only reason I posted that somewhat negative sounding post is because I hate seeing the setup used with shield-whoring and/or other forms of running+slow prepping.  It's too easy to do for how hard it is to counter.

Jovolo

Shecks said:

@Valdus many of us are still searching for that mythical escape tactic from heartseed (kinda like the theory that surviving an artied monk double leg break is possible).  I'm starting to lean towards the idea that they're just starting rumors that it exists (like bigfoot) to placate the onlookers.

Until then, I just (attempt to) run like hell if they break even a single limb (takes about 8 seconds), and spam diagnose when your torso is about to go.

"more or less preventable"

"I'd definitely say surviving them is possible."

wtf was the above post about then, haha. Reading through your comments can get so confusing.

- I'm not trying to get at you but it's hard to talk to a guy that has 2 or 3 opinions that all conflict with each other? Consistency man. Your latest post was more accurate. 

You're still looking at momentum vs prep the wrong way. You're right, turtle prepping is a bitch. How many attempts do you get to lock, from start to finish of their prep? It should be roughly one to two rebounding cycles, so ~17s per attempt. Shielding means they aren't using active curing or their own offence, you flay and afflict faster than they shield. Bite goes through shield and so on. 

Heartseed is surprisingly difficult to pull off once someone sorts their curing out, very much like vivi. No one disagrees that it's a solid class though, which is great! Instead of looking for nerfs into things that don't need it, seek offensive buffs for yourself, but I'll be honests, t-fang serp is not exactly in a bad place right now.

Shecks

Never said that heartseed is broken - just that I'm not good against it yet. I don't want to derail entirely, but I'd really like to hear more about how thoth's fang is so ridiculous. It's comparable to any other classes level 3 weapon (slightly faster, more accurate). I think you're mixing up the change to dexterity with Thoth's fang. I'm rocking 19 dex, my dstab is only slightly faster than when using a normal dirk. In fact, it was already nerded at least once, and Thoth's speed cap is only marginally higher than a non-artie dirk, making the only real benefit to having it the ability to put stats into something other than glass cannon dex mode. Also, stock SVO in cure impatience mode, combined with even one or two shields or uses of fitness can counter everything but the most insanely perfect (and lucky) lock setups, Thoth's or no Thoth's.

It's also the first time in my memory that serpent had a stat other than constitution that matters. Sacrificing max health for an offensive boost to dstab speed is no different than speccing a knight for 22+ str or going balls out Int sylvan/magi. There are definitely drawbacks, especially without a ton of stat boosting artefacts. A dex spec serpent will usually have around 10-11 con. That's quite a tradeoff - that a lot of people aren't considering or taking advantage of.

tldr: it isn't TF making stab faster than you're used to, it's the dex change.

Cooper

@Jovolo

Re: heartseed being 100% curable

When fighting, you have to ask yourself what your opponent can do to you to kill you at any time. Most of the time the answer is nothing, and you're safe to continue doing whatever you want. However, there are certain cases where you have to do something specific to not die. During a good heartseed prep, the only thing you can do is sit there not applying restoration to your broken limbs while waiting for them to heartseed or to cure the heartseed. Now you have to ask yourself, "What can they do to me because I'm curing this way?". Well, the answer to that question in this case is a lot. I'm not going to go through different scenarios, but there is a large cost associated with sitting on the ground with a broken leg waiting to cure heartseed against a class that can do massive spike damage (don't forget that heartseed does damage for every level 2 limb you have when you cure it).

Jovolo

You don't have to wait for them to heartseed, just for them to do something. You can tumble and apply to legs as soon as they hailstorm for example. It's sort of like vs Infernal if they shatter - it's your fault if you just sit there and don't apply while they're off balance for three seconds minimum, or if they impale you etc. The problem is the amount of damage an Artied Sylvan can do to get you low UP TO that point.

Heartseed/Sylvan still fine though. It's just in the spotlight now for some reason, when Monks and Magi have had better damage output for years.

Eld

Shecks said:

Never said that heartseed is broken - just that I'm not good against it yet. I don't want to derail entirely, but I'd really like to hear more about how thoth's fang is so ridiculous. It's comparable to any other classes level 3 weapon (slightly faster, more accurate). I think you're mixing up the change to dexterity with Thoth's fang. I'm rocking 19 dex, my dstab is only slightly faster than when using a normal dirk. In fact, it was already nerded at least once, and Thoth's speed cap is only marginally higher than a non-artie dirk, making the only real benefit to having it the ability to put stats into something other than glass cannon dex mode. Also, stock SVO in cure impatience mode, combined with even one or two shields or uses of fitness can counter everything but the most insanely perfect (and lucky) lock setups, Thoth's or no Thoth's. It's also the first time in my memory that serpent had a stat other than constitution that matters. Sacrificing max health for an offensive boost to dstab speed is no different than speccing a knight for 22+ str or going balls out Int sylvan/magi. There are definitely drawbacks, especially without a ton of stat boosting artefacts. A dex spec serpent will usually have around 10-11 con. That's quite a tradeoff - that a lot of people aren't considering or taking advantage of. tldr: it isn't TF making stab faster than you're used to, it's the dex change.

Most of the complaints about Thoth's Fang seem to be related to what non-serpents can do with them.