Forestal Skillsets

Xith

With Concoctions being separated, how would you most like to see it replaced in each forestal class?

Kyriella

I would love to see a unique skill for each class, further fleshing out their unique elements. Right now, Druids have nothing that Sents/Sylvans don't have (with the exception of a few unique skills within the broader skillsets). While this makes sense given the origins of the classes, it would be fantastic to see them grow a bit more apart skill-wise, with something more defining to round out the classes. That's ignoring the massive amount of work it would take to create/balance it all, of course, but I can dream, right?

Sena

Option 1 or 2 would be hilarious.

Kafziel

Is this thread a joke

Antonius

Lol. The last thing Sentinel needs is Groves in place of Concoctions. Good one Xith!

Tecton

The answer here is somewhere between 3 and 4.

Vadimuses

I just voted other so I could see what the votes are without voting.

Xith

Regarding Sylvans, I almost want to see their unique Elementalism split into its own skill, called Naturalism.

It would still have an elemental basis but focuses more on the nature side and continuing with the theme of elemental forms like Viridian.

The elemental form idea had a lot of mention in the Magi topic, but somehow it feels more Sylvan to me. So I did have an idea.

If we consider the Viridian to be the "Earth" elemental, I went on to consider a "Water" elemental, called a Cerulean. Cerulean combat is designed to involve fluid movement, strategizing the water level between adjacent rooms so that they help maintain each other and your resources deplete slower for combat.

Cerulean form abilities:

AQUIFY - adds +6 inches of water to the room (3 eq)

Water level drains at -6 inches every 12 seconds (global timer), and adds +2 inches to all adjacent rooms.

-6 happens before the +2, and if there are less than 6 inches, adjacent rooms get no water.

River rooms have 12 inches by default. Devotion Parting would then temporarily negate 12 inches worth.

At 4 feet (48 inches) of water, waterwalking enchantments are disabled (not weirds), requiring swimming. Holocausts in the room are also instantly extinguished.

At 6 feet (72 inches) of water, the room type is underwater, requiring prickly pear to not drown.

SUBMERGE - In your elemental form, force your target's head underwater for asphyx damage that scales with the level of water in the room.

FLOW <dir> - direct 1/2 of current room's water into adjacent room (the draining effect means it will drain +2 back into your room)

SOAK - drain water to heal. -6 inches (3s EQ), healing equivalent to a Boar

STREAM <dir> - visible form of evade. -6 inches from starting room

If 4+ feet of water, all salve applications have 66% chance of dissolving in the water (still consumes the salve's balance)

IODIZE - water so salty target gets a tummyache (anorexia/nausea) (1.5 EQ)

PRESSURIZE - pop target's bubble granted by prickly pear (1.5 EQ)

COOL - makes water colder for ~8s, causing a level of freeze in enemies every ~3s (2.5 eq)

So the goal is to damage them with drowning I guess. I added the salve effect so that they would rely on focus balance to cure anorexia and eat pear again.

So with 4 feet of water, waterwalking is negated. COOL, then IODIZE twice. With the looping freeze and repeated attempts at salve curing, just IODIZE/PRESSURIZE in an attempt to remove pear just before drown damage hits? Feel like I should address anorexia or focus balance more so it has a chance at working. Thoughts?

---

Other possible elemental forms: 

"Saffreeti" (saffron + efreeti = clever) - increases room heat to cause extra fire damage. Passive personal burn aura just like efreeti has. can still cast firewalls/holocaust/etc. 3 levels of room heat that periodically fade. Could BOIL at level 3 to vaporize all water if fighting a Cerulean. Blah...

Wind elemental - +1 dex, etc. No ideas for this, really.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. Since rooms drain -6 and add +2 inches to all adjacent rooms, you could theoretically create a perpetual motion sequence with

[ ]- - -[ ]

 | \   / |

 |  [2]  |

 | /   \ |

[ ] - - [ ]

The center room would lose 6 and gain 8 (/12 secs) if the other rooms had at least 6 inches of water. And they would lose 6 and gain 6 each, staying at the same level. So I guess allow people to scoop out water with buckets or require other Ceruleans to drain them or make a stagnant room collapse after enough time passes. However, room formations like that aren't super common

Xith

inb4 - "All your ideas gave me -6 inches"

I get that Viridian isn't strictly earth either but maybe Sylvans are meant to be the nature elemental and these would really go better with Magi.

Also realize that the water level changes might be a sweeping code thing especially if they affected rivers but... it'd be new. And give some meaning back to waterwalking and drowning.

Xith

Kafziel said:

Is this thread a joke

This thread is a poll. If the poll had a clear answer (as it does), then just vote for it and keep your biased cynicism to yourself.

Rangor

I wouldn't mind stacking groves and bees onto my meta/woodlore.

:-\"

Asmodron

I would -love- to see Druids gain some form of unique skillset that incorporates what they stand for and would be special to them.

An idea I have is a skill that incorporates the weather somehow (not the weather system, since I know that's a pain and a half to code with). A druid could manipulate the weather around them and, controlling wind speeds, humidity, and so forth, are able to increase the weather's power to the point it can spread to several rooms outward (max 3 in each direction).

They would be able to apply several different types of weather effects. If they have conjured stormclouds for example, they can imbue it with lightning, hail, etc. Some of these effects would work passively, while others would require an active command. Other druids standing within the 'eye of the storm' would also be able to call upon these active abilities in order to strike at others within the storm's domain.

Some ideas of different weather types (and effects that can be placed in them):

Stormclouds (lightning, hail, thunder (stun) )
Sandstorms (blindness (from blowing sand), mirage (rooms look all the same), heatwave (blackout), scour (strip defense) )
Windstorm (buffeting winds (slowed walking), gust, tornado)
Blizzard (concealment (natural current effect), frostbite (freezes), iced grounds)

Xith

I think more weather/room effects sound cool. Always liked environment altering magic, thought it was lacking in both Elemental skills and forestal skills. Granted it tends to be powerful conceptually but... just saying.

Antonius

Rangor said:

I wouldn't mind stacking groves and bees onto my meta/woodlore.

:-\"

Quiet you!

Sena

Sentinels should have the spear/trident abilities split off from woodlore. Woodlore still has plenty of abilities left after that, so it won't need any other changes/compensation aside from the obvious balancing. The third skill should be entirely focussed on the spear/trident, making it a much bigger part of the class instead of just a few abilities.

Not entirely sure what sylvans and druids need.

Xith

Sylvans need more elemental nature to differentiate them, while Druids need more total nature stuff, probably focused around plants/life. Meta is tough cause it's super prominent in both druids and sentinels. So as long as those two get things that don't look like each other...

Kafziel

Xith said:

Kafziel said:

Is this thread a joke

This thread is a poll. If the poll had a clear answer (as it does), then just vote for it and keep your biased cynicism to yourself.

There was no option for 'Runewardens get deleted. Infernals and Paladins both get runelore' so I couldn't adequately express myself through the poll.

Blujixapug

they should get tree new skills

get it


:-j

These three classes are pretty much already balanced for PVP. They each have only two PK skills, but those two skills have been tweaked and buffed into being sufficient. Sylvans work. Druids presumably work (who would know). Sents seem to work, though apparently they have issues with finishing kills after they prep? So they arguably don't need a lot in terms of PK abilities, not an entire skill. All three also have a lot of utility already: Meta, Woodlore, and Elementalism are full of utility, and Groves is nothing but utility. There's nothing much they desperately need, no obvious void to fill, which leaves a lot of freedom in designing a new skill.

Hopefully the new skills will help distinguish class identity. Druids have long had the problem of lacking unique skills: Meta is shared with sentinels, Groves is shared with sylvans. They still have a decent class identity, thanks to archetype connotations shared with D&D etc, and Hydra morph helped their PK identity, but it could be better. I also hope the skills will help to define identity through gameplay. Concoctions has long had the hidden benefit of encouraging forestals to roam far and wide, and know the lands, due to the mechanics of finding herbs in different environments, and I think that's something worth preserving in a replacement skill.

Oh, this is also a good idea to think about conflict mechanics, giving forestals a response to Exterminate, and provisions for four-way factional conflict.

Brainstorm, away! Vague ideas follow...

The sylvan/sentinel/druid triumvirate kind of equates to mind/body/spirit. Druids are the forests' priests, sentinels are the warriors, sylvans are the wizards.

Druid skill: Druidry. (original, hey)
- Create a cairn by stacking stones in one of a variety of environments: forest, jungle, desert, swamp, ruins, underwater etc. Various bonuses. Cairns can be toppled by your enemies. Could comprise multiple abilities, eg. incorporating different items into your cairn. Perhaps encourage them to be built in remote locations, eg. your cairn becomes more powerful if nobody has recently visited the room in which it is built.
- PK ability: Active ability that when used on a target, causes them to receive afflictions from a set the next X times they take damage.
- Communing: Speak with woodland creatures.
- Immanence: Trans ability. Cause great trees to grow up and reclaim civilised land. Turns urban areas, highway rooms, city rooms etc into forest- or 'trees'-environment rooms.
- Something involving the various sacred trees? Real-world correspondence on this concept ranges from interpretations of druidic lore, to wiccan  nonsense (geocities-style websites, honour the earth as your mother), to legitimate ancient Irish law (the Crith Caglach, 'Branched Purchase', legislates tiers of fines for chopping down certain trees). This vaguely authoritative wikipedia page lists Celtic sacred trees as oak, ash, apple, hazel, alder, elder, and yew; a translated poem from the Crith Caglach lists 'nobles of the wood', the trees whose felling which carried the highest fines, as oak, hazel, holly, yew, ash, pine, and apple.
- Like, a wicker man? this idea brought to you by: alcohol

Sentinel skill: some name. Stalking?
Transformation: Transform into a wild animal. This would just be awesome, you know? Extends to brief desc as seen by QL, enter/exit messages, extended desc when people look at you. Effectively provides anonymity. Lose the ability to speak, and maybe to communicate telepathically. Can't use most abilities while transformed. Could be used for infiltration and stealth, eg. transform into a black rat to scurry around a city, or turn into a wild mazaran to nose around a Targossan sacrament being performed on New Hope. Maybe you can 'memorise' up to 3 animals by being in the room with them, and those are the only ones you can transform into.
Tracks: detect tracks left by people who have recently passed through a room? I don't know.
Some kind of instakill.
I have no real ideas for the rest of this skill.

The Communing and Transformation abilities both involve wild animals, and there are obvious problems there. But since it would be major new content, I think it would justify going through all the wild animal NPCs at once to ensure consistency. Give all the jaguars and moose enter/exit lines that aren't environmentally specific, for sentinels to transform into. Give all the owls and beavers a couple of interesting little messages to respond to druids with - maybe even quest lines. You could even ensure major areas have plausible predator/prey dynamics, with food webs and apex predators, which might be reflected in how the animals respond to druids.

Sylvan skill. idk what name
Weatherworking: Nullify weather in a room (negate the standard weather system) and impose your own weather. You could do this just by having different abilities for Rain, Sunshine, Snow etc. Or you could use a system of variables. I think Imperian has something like this, which may be the kiss of death because emulating other IRE games = bad, but oh well, I already typed this out so I'll post it. Manipulate 4 atmospheric factors: temperature, precipitation, wind, arcane flow. I think 'atmospheric pressure' is probs an important variable as well, but I don't really understand its influence. Manipulating factors in different combinations would yield different results. eg. low temperature, high precipitation = snow. Medium temperature, high precipitation = rain. High temperature, high precipitation = thunderstorm?
Rainbow: omg you could make rainbows
Maybe different seasonal aspects.
What practical effects would different weather systems have? I don't know. Making them provide passive or active benefits in PK is awkward, because there's already quite a bit of this going on in Groves and Elementalism, with abilities like Hailstorm, Lightning, Snowstorm etc. Whatevs, it's just a brainstormed idea, malign it at your leisure.

Rangor

@blujixapug You're so out of date! Sylvan/Sentinel are beasts in pvp now. Druids lagging a bit behind due to no afflicting/reliable finisher moves.

Trevize

I'd like to see tridents/spears in their own skill for sentinels. Staff skills seperated from groves for druids/sylvans.

Asmodron

Blujixapug said:

Sylvan skill. idk what name
Weatherworking: Nullify weather in a room (negate the standard weather system) and impose your own weather. You could do this just by having different abilities for Rain, Sunshine, Snow etc. Or you could use a system of variables. I think Imperian has something like this, which may be the kiss of death because emulating other IRE games = bad, but oh well, I already typed this out so I'll post it. Manipulate 4 atmospheric factors: temperature, precipitation, wind, arcane flow. I think 'atmospheric pressure' is probs an important variable as well, but I don't really understand its influence. Manipulating factors in different combinations would yield different results. eg. low temperature, high precipitation = snow. Medium temperature, high precipitation = rain. High temperature, high precipitation = thunderstorm?
Rainbow: omg you could make rainbows
Maybe different seasonal aspects.
What practical effects would different weather systems have? I don't know. Making them provide passive or active benefits in PK is awkward, because there's already quite a bit of this going on in Groves and Elementalism, with abilities like Hailstorm, Lightning, Snowstorm etc. Whatevs, it's just a brainstormed idea, malign it at your leisure.

My weather idea! Thief!!


X(

Achimrst

Blujixapug said:

they should get tree new skills

get it


:-j

These three classes are pretty much already balanced for PVP. They each have only two PK skills, but those two skills have been tweaked and buffed into being sufficient. Sylvans work. Druids presumably work (who would know). Sents seem to work, though apparently they have issues with finishing kills after they prep? So they arguably don't need a lot in terms of PK abilities, not an entire skill. All three also have a lot of utility already: Meta, Woodlore, and Elementalism are full of utility, and Groves is nothing but utility. There's nothing much they desperately need, no obvious void to fill, which leaves a lot of freedom in designing a new skill.

Hopefully the new skills will help distinguish class identity. Druids have long had the problem of lacking unique skills: Meta is shared with sentinels, Groves is shared with sylvans. They still have a decent class identity, thanks to archetype connotations shared with D&D etc, and Hydra morph helped their PK identity, but it could be better. I also hope the skills will help to define identity through gameplay. Concoctions has long had the hidden benefit of encouraging forestals to roam far and wide, and know the lands, due to the mechanics of finding herbs in different environments, and I think that's something worth preserving in a replacement skill.

Oh, this is also a good idea to think about conflict mechanics, giving forestals a response to Exterminate, and provisions for four-way factional conflict.

Brainstorm, away! Vague ideas follow...

The sylvan/sentinel/druid triumvirate kind of equates to mind/body/spirit. Druids are the forests' priests, sentinels are the warriors, sylvans are the wizards.

Druid skill: Druidry. (original, hey)
- Create a cairn by stacking stones in one of a variety of environments: forest, jungle, desert, swamp, ruins, underwater etc. Various bonuses. Cairns can be toppled by your enemies. Could comprise multiple abilities, eg. incorporating different items into your cairn. Perhaps encourage them to be built in remote locations, eg. your cairn becomes more powerful if nobody has recently visited the room in which it is built.
- PK ability: Active ability that when used on a target, causes them to receive afflictions from a set the next X times they take damage.
- Communing: Speak with woodland creatures.
- Immanence: Trans ability. Cause great trees to grow up and reclaim civilised land. Turns urban areas, highway rooms, city rooms etc into forest- or 'trees'-environment rooms.
- Something involving the various sacred trees? Real-world correspondence on this concept ranges from interpretations of druidic lore, to wiccan  nonsense (geocities-style websites, honour the earth as your mother), to legitimate ancient Irish law (the Crith Caglach, 'Branched Purchase', legislates tiers of fines for chopping down certain trees). This vaguely authoritative wikipedia page lists Celtic sacred trees as oak, ash, apple, hazel, alder, elder, and yew; a translated poem from the Crith Caglach lists 'nobles of the wood', the trees whose felling which carried the highest fines, as oak, hazel, holly, yew, ash, pine, and apple.
- Like, a wicker man? this idea brought to you by: alcohol

Sentinel skill: some name. Stalking?
Transformation: Transform into a wild animal. This would just be awesome, you know? Extends to brief desc as seen by QL, enter/exit messages, extended desc when people look at you. Effectively provides anonymity. Lose the ability to speak, and maybe to communicate telepathically. Can't use most abilities while transformed. Could be used for infiltration and stealth, eg. transform into a black rat to scurry around a city, or turn into a wild mazaran to nose around a Targossan sacrament being performed on New Hope. Maybe you can 'memorise' up to 3 animals by being in the room with them, and those are the only ones you can transform into.
Tracks: detect tracks left by people who have recently passed through a room? I don't know.
Some kind of instakill.
I have no real ideas for the rest of this skill.

The Communing and Transformation abilities both involve wild animals, and there are obvious problems there. But since it would be major new content, I think it would justify going through all the wild animal NPCs at once to ensure consistency. Give all the jaguars and moose enter/exit lines that aren't environmentally specific, for sentinels to transform into. Give all the owls and beavers a couple of interesting little messages to respond to druids with - maybe even quest lines. You could even ensure major areas have plausible predator/prey dynamics, with food webs and apex predators, which might be reflected in how the animals respond to druids.

Sylvan skill. idk what name
Weatherworking: Nullify weather in a room (negate the standard weather system) and impose your own weather. You could do this just by having different abilities for Rain, Sunshine, Snow etc. Or you could use a system of variables. I think Imperian has something like this, which may be the kiss of death because emulating other IRE games = bad, but oh well, I already typed this out so I'll post it. Manipulate 4 atmospheric factors: temperature, precipitation, wind, arcane flow. I think 'atmospheric pressure' is probs an important variable as well, but I don't really understand its influence. Manipulating factors in different combinations would yield different results. eg. low temperature, high precipitation = snow. Medium temperature, high precipitation = rain. High temperature, high precipitation = thunderstorm?
Rainbow: omg you could make rainbows
Maybe different seasonal aspects.
What practical effects would different weather systems have? I don't know. Making them provide passive or active benefits in PK is awkward, because there's already quite a bit of this going on in Groves and Elementalism, with abilities like Hailstorm, Lightning, Snowstorm etc. Whatevs, it's just a brainstormed idea, malign it at your leisure.

Achaea would be painted in rainbows, I would break into enemy cities just to drop a rainbow so they can know how much I love them!

Daklore

I'm more interested in the Runewarden, Paladin, and Infernal replacement for forging. I want giant earth swords falling from the skies onto my enemies, dammit!

Kei

@Achimrst

But....we're already trying for Flowerdor, and have been for years, now you want to make it Rainbowdor!?

Achimrst

Kei said:

@Achimrst

But....we're already trying for Flowerdor, and have been for years, now you want to make it Rainbowdor!?

Because, yes.

Mizik

Can replace all of Concoctions with Hive.

No complaints.

Jakiro

clicked the wrong option. was going for the third one, but I can't repick (

Nim

@Jakiro: Oh no! And your vote was the lucky vote that was going to decide the fate of forestals everywhere! You've doomed them all!!

May

In my opinion, Woodlore and Groves don't mix well. Woodlore allows for free roaming of the forest where with a grove you're tied down to one spot. Sentinel would be better if they became more of a Ranger class, maybe become a second Assassin style class respectfully reflecting Serpents. While keeping to the nature aspect of the class. Its what I would like to see!

Antreus

I personally think they should all share one skill that has deviations similar to how Runelore is different if you're a Shaman or Runewarden.

Point being, faction classes all share one skill: Necromancy, Devotion

I just think the path of least resistance will be what occurs, because making 3 new skillsets and balancing them in classleads seems daunting.

@Trevize, I like the idea about utilizing their weapon proficiency they receive in groves and woodlore to comprise their third advanced skills. I think this has promise. A lot of skills could be migrated as a result or expanded.

Achimrst

Antreus said:

I personally think they should all share one skill that has deviations similar to how Runelore is different if you're a Shaman or Runewarden.

Point being, faction classes all share one skill: Necromancy, Devotion

I just think the path of least resistance will be what occurs, because making 3 new skillsets and balancing them in classleads seems daunting.

@Trevize, I like the idea about utilizing their weapon proficiency they receive in groves and woodlore to comprise their third advanced skills. I think this has promise. A lot of skills could be migrated as a result or expanded.

I just wanted to say, Runelore is not different from runewarden to shaman. They took away mildly useless runes from shaman.