Quick Questions

Sena

Check STAT STATS, look at "Levels" under Denizen Kills (it's the sum of the levels of all the denizens you've killed), kill the mount or another of the same type, check STAT STATS again and see how much the levels changed.

Or ask someone else who's already done that (I don't know of anyone with a list of mount levels).

Xoatl

I've read previously that you can jab with a dirk as a dragon for hunting. Is this still viable? And is it based off of your weaponry skill?

Dunn

They significantly nerfed the damage it does, if I recall correctly. 

Bronislav

Xoatl said:

I've read previously that you can jab with a dirk as a dragon for hunting. Is this still viable? And is it based off of your weaponry skill?

I use a Thoth's for hunting as Dragon.

Subjectively, the attacks are quicker and I get a lot of benefit from critical hit improvements, which place them over gut. But I don't have the numbers to back that up, sooooo...The question still stands, and is very relevant to my interests.

[Deleted User]

DRAGON
Gut
46.00% dmg, 3.00b (3.00), 15.33% p/s
Incantation
53.00% dmg, 3.27e (3.85), 16.21% p/s
Blast
28.00% dmg, 3.40e (4.00),  8.24% p/s
Thoth's fang
29.50% dmg, 1.90b (1.90), 15.53% p/s

That's with full arties, though. Minor difference, regardless.

Bronislav

Pyori said:

DRAGON
Gut
46.00% dmg, 3.00b (3.00), 15.33% p/s
Incantation
53.00% dmg, 3.27e (3.85), 16.21% p/s
Blast
28.00% dmg, 3.40e (4.00),  8.24% p/s
Thoth's fang
29.50% dmg, 1.90b (1.90), 15.53% p/s

That's with full arties, though. Minor difference, regardless.

Is that taking crits into consideration? If not, then wouldn't Thoth's have a distinct edge by virtue of faster balance?

Cooper

People don't consider balance times much, and is a big mistake.

A hits for 10% ever 1 second.

B hits for 25% every 2.5 seconds.

Their raw DPS is even, but every time a denizen is killed, the person attacking at 1 second gets a 1.5 second advantage.

I routinely kill 200 denizens when I bash - that would be a 5 minute difference just based on recovery speed. (This is also why you should use battlerage BEFORE you attack, not after like most people do).

Nazihk

Critical hits are a percentile modifier on your DPS. That's it. That's all. Assuming roughly-equal DPS, faster is better for the reasons Cooper mentioned, but "more faster = more criticals = more better" is absolutely incorrect. It's all about DPS.

Lower the DPS on the fast attack by 10% and look at what you get.

A is 9% every 1s
B is 25% every 2.5s

B takes 7.5 seconds to kill(hits at 0s, 2.5s, 5.0s, dead at 7.5s) and 10 seconds to recover.

A now takes 11 seconds to kill(hits at 0s, 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, 10s, dead at 11s) and 12 seconds to recover. 

Faster is not always better. 

Dupre

Given equal DPS, critical hits absolutely do have a larger effect, the faster you attack.

Xoatl

@Pyori - that's the post I saw which is why I assumed it was still at least viable. I've only got a lvl 2 dirk, but when testing jabbing out, my bal time is almost 3s per jab, and only like 10-20% damage of my gut. With @Bronislav mentioning tfang is fine, I'm assuming it's likely mostly due to my low weaponry (only up to parry), and to a lesser extent that tfang >>> buckawn spine. Guess I'll trans weaponry!

Sena

Nazihk said:

Critical hits are a percentile modifier on your DPS. That's it. That's all. Assuming roughly-equal DPS, faster is better for the reasons Cooper mentioned, but "more faster = more criticals = more better" is absolutely incorrect. It's all about DPS.

Lower the DPS on the fast attack by 10% and look at what you get.

A is 9% every 1s
B is 25% every 2.5s

B takes 7.5 seconds to kill(hits at 0s, 2.5s, 5.0s, dead at 7.5s) and 10 seconds to recover.

A now takes 11 seconds to kill(hits at 0s, 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, 10s, dead at 11s) and 12 seconds to recover. 

Faster is not always better. 

I used to argue the same thing, but after doing some simulations/math the speed really does make a bigger difference than I thought due to more consistent criticals.

Here's an example. Short summary: If attack A does X damage, and attack B does X*0.2 damage at 4 times the speed, with a 50% crit chance, attack B is significantly better despite the DPS being 20% lower, even before accounting for the advantage Cooper mentioned.

Tysandr

Dupre said:

Given equal DPS, critical hits absolutely do have a larger effect, the faster you attack.

If you have a high absolute damage, it is more important to hit high health targets for your criticals to not ceiling.

Unless you have critical-hit carryover.

Rom

Xoatl said:

@Pyori - that's the post I saw which is why I assumed it was still at least viable. I've only got a lvl 2 dirk, but when testing jabbing out, my bal time is almost 3s per jab, and only like 10-20% damage of my gut. With @Bronislav mentioning tfang is fine, I'm assuming it's likely mostly due to my low weaponry (only up to parry), and to a lesser extent that tfang >>> buckawn spine. Guess I'll trans weaponry!

I don’t understand your goal here, it’s definitely not worth doing without a Thoth’s fang and you’d be better off buying a crit pendant or something instead of weaponry if your goal is bashing. If you’re just trying to RP as a dirk dragon or something then go ahead.

Xoatl

@Rom - goal was just curiosity, since I had a l2 dirk. I normally hunt with l2 lash in serpent, or else so far just gut in dragon is more than fine. When jab was wildly worse than I expected, was surprised, so was asking for personal interest. I probably should have just added an /s to the transing weaponry part, I'm mostly just too lazy to sit and spend the lessons .

Rom

Xoatl said:

@Rom - goal was just curiosity, since I had a l2 dirk. I normally hunt with l2 lash in serpent, or else so far just gut in dragon is more than fine. When jab was wildly worse than I expected, was surprised, so was asking for personal interest. I probably should have just added an /s to the transing weaponry part, I'm mostly just too lazy to sit and spend the lessons .

Okay sorry then, wasn't trying to be mean just didn't want you to waste your money.

Sena

There's a huge difference in jab effectiveness between L2 and L3 dirks, L3 dirk is almost 20% faster and has a 33% higher damage stat. Weaponry also makes a big difference, especially when it comes to fast weapons. There's a 1s balance difference between inept weaponry and trans weaponry, so when you're talking sub-2s balance times (L3 dirk with trans weaponry is 1.9s) plus the damage difference from weaponry, trans weaponry will give almost twice the DPS of inept.

Xoatl

@Rom - No no, I absolutely appreciate the pointer there. I'd really prefer someone to tell me I'm wrong if I'm being stupid about something, and all of you have way, way more expertise/practice than I do. Any time you want to save me money, no complaints lol.

@Sena - I'm not a stats/linear algebra guy, but I think the reason that the trials come out the way they do is because the model's more complex than just 'dps vs. hp total', it seems like it's more similar to threading you'd see in processors and task scheduling (granted it's not like they crit but it's scheduling things based off of unit size so you're still sometimes not in control of how big your blocks are).

Let's say the mob insta-dies at 16x when you're using a 'hard hitting' attack. So of course everything 16x and above you get as a base success, but then you have to model that the value you're trying to hit becomes lower with every hit that doesn't get you there - so it's a dependent probability on your first and subsequent attacks. At some point you get their HP gets low enough that 8x is enough, and then 4x, and then eventually base hit so the model's kind of messy because the probability changes at each threshold.

Then for the low damage/fast hit case, you're doing a similar thing, and then calculate it based off of number of trials but I don't know what the statistical formula for this would be, my naive understanding of nCr doesn't seem like it'd cover this. Likely just have to model it with actual trials as you did. 

I'm not sure it reconciles with what @Tysandr said, as the nuance under this theory is in that it's not so much that your hit is 'wasted' (granted for over-kill carryover that's great), it's more that that the threshold in which the big hit rolls over into higher critical chances to kill (like 2x or 4x multipliers) is reached at a different speed then threshold for low damage attacks, and the improvement is at different rates. I'd expect you'd see different crossovers at different HP thresholds, and then after a certain HP threshold one of them starts winning increasingly over the other (seems like from your testing it's case 2). Yay, math.

-edit since @Sena also posted the l3 vs. l2 difference - yeah, that'd also be a pretty big contributor to it being total trash when randomly jabbing something just to try, haha.

Wicella

Is there a way to set it so CLHELP <clanname> doesn't show people from a certain position? 

Mathilda

@Wicella: From HELP CLAN LEADER,

CLAN SET PRIVATE ON/OFF
   - Toggles the private flag on or off. A private clan is one that is not
     listed in HELP CLANLIST.
   - With private on CLANHELP <clan name> will not show members in positions.
   - All "OOC" clans are required to be set as private.

Sena

I don't think you can hide one position without hiding all of them and making the clan private.

Wicella

I tried making it private, but people -in- the clan can still see the CLHELP <clanname>.  It only stops people from seeing it if they aren't in the clan.

And making everything completely anonymous would be super annoying haha.

Torinn

I think there are ways to make positions secret or something like that

Solnir

@Torinn
There are for Houses. Can't find anything for clans, though.

Jonathin

Iirc, the only one for clans is private, which is the entire clan.

Trey

Quick question - who wants to sell me a grandmagi thread?

Nazihk

I'd love to sell you a grand magi thread.

However, I don't actually have one, I am afraid.

Antonius

Trey said:

Quick question - who wants to sell me a grandmagi thread?

Want to sell me your grandmagi needle instead?

Minifie

Trey TOLERATES me and won't sell me his pieces, good luck getting them off his hands!

Cooper

How about Trey sells me his needle and Antonius sells me his thread?

Antonius

Cooper said:

How about Trey sells me his needle and Antonius sells me his thread?

How much are you offering us?