Quick Questions

Satum

So I've got a question about hunting. I've heard quite a few people mention how good serp bashing is with a lvl 3 lash but I'm curious what level of 'good' it is specifically. I'm currently a lvl 84 DW with a lvl 3 scythe and I've heard DW isn't great for bashing, which definitely seems accurate bc I feel pretty slow when I'm clearing. I plan on bashing at least to drag, and probably beyond and here are some of the specific questions I have:

 Is it worth it to pick up serp as a second class and get a lash just to bash vs staying DW?
And also how does it fare versus dragon/waterlord after I get there?
Are there stats that are important to making it good, too, or would I be okay stacking con like I have for DW?

Armali

Are you okay spending a few hundred dollars to save maybe a week or so of time? 

Then go for it.

Minifie

Satum said:

So I've got a question about hunting. I've heard quite a few people mention how good serp bashing is with a lvl 3 lash but I'm curious what level of 'good' it is specifically. I'm currently a lvl 84 DW with a lvl 3 scythe and I've heard DW isn't great for bashing, which definitely seems accurate bc I feel pretty slow when I'm clearing. I plan on bashing at least to drag, and probably beyond and here are some of the specific questions I have:

 Is it worth it to pick up serp as a second class and get a lash just to bash vs staying DW?
And also how does it fare versus dragon after I get there?
Are there stats that are important to making it good, too, or would I be okay stacking con like I have for DW?

When artied out the ass, serpent is probably the fastest basher, however, it is more fragile than most other classes. Dwalker is pure garbage for bashing, it really sucks a fat nut.

Artied out the ass includes:

level 3 dex
level 3 con
level 3 sip
level 3 bracelets
level 3 lash
SoA
paragon crit x 2
Deathcape talisman set.

If you add in a mayan figurine as well, serpent gets better. HOWEVER, dragon itself is quite fine for bashing speed, it isn't as slow as people make it out to be solely due to the tankiness letting you (at least at 99) simply faceplant into rooms just fine. I've been trying to add more classes just for bashing and getting the numbers, so serpent numbers aren't perfect, of the classes I have:

infernal 100% prin time
runewarden 104% prin time
magi 107% prin time (with stormhammer)
monk (mind crush int build) 122% prin time
magi 123% (no stormhammer)
blademaster 129% prin time

these were all with best arties you can get, infernal and runewarden both used DWC and 2h, and honestly the time differential was so minute in some runs that luck can have 2h pull ahead by a little bit, or DWC just fires enough hits to be better. I would assume serpent is faster than all of these if I had it, but for me knight is fast enough with tankiness to spare.

Accipiter

Serpent bashing is good because you can reduce the speed of garrote with the artefact lash and stacking Dex, because you are stacking dex your tankyness goes down so you will need to invest in arties that improve that and your dps is based on low damage fast hitting attacks, which means you want high crits, lucky, crit pendant, crit paragon ect. 

So basically, serpent is a glass cannon that requires a lot of investment to be amazing but if you do make that it is great. I wouldn't recommend just going serpent for the bashing though unless you love spending money.

Satum

Okay, so it's sounding like (at least for me personally) the investment to get serp up to the levels it'd need to be at probably aren't worth the cost so I've got a follow up question. Which class would be the biggest improvement over DW bashing with the least investment? I've already got a SoA and lvl 2 sip/bracelet and 18 con as a tash'la w/ belt. Or is the investment in any class probably going to be big enough that I should just suffer through until I hit drag? I was specifically considering shikudo monk as another class that interested me for pvp, would this be any better bashing wise?

Alyxeri

Satum said:

Okay, so it's sounding like (at least for me personally) the investment to get serp up to the levels it'd need to be at probably aren't worth the cost so I've got a follow up question. Which class would be the biggest improvement over DW bashing with the least investment? I've already got a SoA and lvl 2 sip/bracelet and 18 con as a tash'la w/ belt. Or is the investment in any class probably going to be big enough that I should just suffer through until I hit drag? I was specifically considering shikudo monk as another class that interested me for pvp, would this be any better bashing wise?

Shaman is pretty good, and amazing for combat. Doesn't really need int/collar for bashing (helps, but does perfectly fine without)

Armali

Are you intending to actually drop DW, or are you investing in a second class? Second class, none of them are worth it just to bash with, imo.

Satum

Armali said:

Are you intending to actually drop DW, or are you investing in a second class? Second class, none of them are worth it just to bash with, imo.

Definitely going to be picking up a second class.  I plan on multiclassing at some point regardless, I was just curious if the difference in bashing between any other class and DW was such that it would be worth it to divert my investment artie wise into a new class a bit, versus just upgrading my ring/belt/bracelets.

Minifie

Armali said:

Are you intending to actually drop DW, or are you investing in a second class? Second class, none of them are worth it just to bash with, imo.

A second class for bashing is absolutely worth it if your main class is DW bad for bashing. If I had only Bm for bashing and dragon with my arties I'd totally snag runie/infernal/serpent/shaman solely to bash with. Dragon bashing is SLOW but it's reliable, you can rely on being able to prevent deaths, but considering how fast I can rip through as DWC infernal I can't imagine dragon bashing ever again .

Atalkez

Make dragon as BM, is good for character building

Minifie

SnB infernal is much worse.

Dochitha

Second class just for bashing is worth it. You can consider:

Runewarden 2H or DwC or DwB. Access to runeblade, Jera and Algiz. Full plate makes you tanky as well. If you can afford some Arty weapons they will speed you up, and still cheaper than serpent. Fully artied 2H (2nd best basher) is very close to fully artied serpent in terms of DPS, but much cheaper. 

Runie also let's you play 4-in-1 in future. Also provided hybrid of prep and affs, is an interesting addition to your DW which is fully AFF momentum. 

Go 2H, str spec on race, get L3 sword, hunt like king. Also, pk like king. 

Antonius

Dochitha said:

Fully artied 2H (2nd best basher) is very close to fully artied serpent in terms of DPS, but much cheaper.

How exactly is fully artied two-handed knight cheaper than fully artied Serpent? Are you using different definitions of "fully artied" for each class?

The vast majority of the artefacts are shared by both classes, so that's obviously the same price. Level 3 weapon for two-handed is the same price as level 3 lash for Serpent. Strength for Knight is the same price as dexterity for Serpent. Absorb paragon - plus the necessary third embrasure to put it in - for Knight is about 700 credits more expensive than Shield of Absorption for Serpent.

Reynaerd

Atalkez said:

Make dragon as BM, is good for character building

Now you tell me... on a scale of 1-10, how bad is Blademaster hunting compared to others? I can't seem to find a list of sorts.

Kyrra

Reynaerd said:

Atalkez said:

Make dragon as BM, is good for character building

Now you tell me... on a scale of 1-10, how bad is Blademaster hunting compared to others? I can't seem to find a list of sorts.

It's kind of on the lower end of the scale from most accounts.

Minifie

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

No arties it's a crapshoot. Still about the same except serpent falls into the toilet and is probably one of the worst. Overall 0 arties you are best being 2h knight and just dragon bashing at 99+ Anything below Bard in the full artied list is a crapshoot, occultist has great damage but not much else, same with jester, full int monk is meh damage but awesome tanking potential, magi can speed clear super fast but that's with stormhammer and my arties (and it kills willpower), apostate can shotgun evileyes but it still isn't DWC good. S+B knight, Bmaster, druid, dwalker, combo monk are all so god awful it's not worth it, while jester > priest is just ok, they will do fine, but not great. 

Dragon rates so high on fully artied because you can literally walk into room, dor kill, afk until clean room, move on. it isn't -fast- but it is super safe.

Also note this list takes into account some defensives, but not ones that force you to go full "sit and just heal omg" which is why priest is lower, sure it can tank well, but it isn't killing anything, while pally can do the same and do it fast as DWC. Sentinel is only where it is because it was actually really good without arties for my little bashing alt, but I'm not sure how it rates WITH arties. If I had all the classes I could test them all thoroughly and properly, but I've had to do it off mindshell's numbers+alt testing, with lots of nuts eaten.

Solnir

Minifie said:

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

I generally agree with this. @Reynaerd

Reynaerd

Wow, thanks everybody! Luckily I didn't pick the absolute worst class then eh..?

Nazihk

You left out a very important one.

Earth Lord.

All the other elemental lords are fucking awful at hunting, but Earth Lord is great at it. Tanky, good damage, lots of health, vitality. Also, it's free, the quest chain is mercifully short compared to some of the other elements, and it's pretty easy to get at lower levels if you have friends who can help you with a few of the harder mobs.

If you're a Depthswalker who can't stand bashing as Depthswalker, it's totally reasonable to go pick up Earthlord at ~L80 to punch your way to dragon.

Minifie

Reynaerd said:

Wow, thanks everybody! Luckily I didn't pick the absolute worst class then eh..?

I believe (I'll find my notes!) that classesless shortsword stabbing can outpace S+B...

Reynaerd

I'm a blademaster, so maybe it is time that I go find myself some friends and roam the Earth planes, thanks @Nazihk!

Mathilda

If you're un-artied and non-dragon, Earth Lord really is quite good!

[Deleted User]

Minifie said:

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

Needs better differentiation on Monks! Shikudo is considerably better than Tekura is. Much tankier even without transmuting, and the damage is a fair bit better. Does need to trans an extra skill, though. I'd probably put it around the same as Sentinel, going from memory of Sentinel bashing, except tankier.

Puxi

Monk bashing blows simply due to the willpower drain though.

[Deleted User]

Puxi said:

Monk bashing blows simply due to the willpower drain though.

Haven't had a problem with it since transing philo / getting perma megalith. Permanently in Tykonos for the damage reduction (and only slightly less dps than the 'optimal transition route'), with ~200 clot threshold. Don't really transmute much unless I absolutely have to.

eta: before megalith I definitely noticed the drain, though. You can turn regeneration off in areas you don't absolutely need the extra hp for, though. That drains way more than transmuting does.

Rekhyr

If you are hunting for more than 40 minutes, regeneration is not worth the meditate downtime.. and it does not really matter if you have a megalith or not, regeneration will drain you hard.

[Deleted User]

Rekhyr said:

If you are hunting for more than 40 minutes, regeneration is not worth the meditate downtime.. and it does not really matter if you have a megalith or not, regeneration will drain you hard.

I was hunting for close to two hours, and I still had over 50% left. With philo/megalith, the majority of that was regenned (without meditate) while I was AFK making food. (I only have 16k WP for reference)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Minifie

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

Needs better differentiation on Monks! Shikudo is considerably better than Tekura is. Much tankier even without transmuting, and the damage is a fair bit better. Does need to trans an extra skill, though. I'd probably put it around the same as Sentinel, going from memory of Sentinel bashing, except tankier.

Thanks! I only heard from @puxi that the drain and damage were as bad as normal tekura so I put them together, if That's the case yeah, monk tankiness definitely puts it around sentinel, maybe a touch above because of the beast tankiness.

[Deleted User]

Minifie said:

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

Needs better differentiation on Monks! Shikudo is considerably better than Tekura is. Much tankier even without transmuting, and the damage is a fair bit better. Does need to trans an extra skill, though. I'd probably put it around the same as Sentinel, going from memory of Sentinel bashing, except tankier.

Thanks! I only heard from @puxi that the drain and damage were as bad as normal tekura so I put them together, if That's the case yeah, monk tankiness definitely puts it around sentinel, maybe a touch above because of the beast tankiness.

Tykonos is easily better than bodyblock, which is the only mitigation tekura has (outside of toughness, which shikudo also has so). Tykonos dps is also higher than Tekura by a non-negligible amount, despite not being the 'optimal stance to be in 100% of the time' - I've found (as did Zulah, who I got this from) it's much safer than the rain>oak>willow>rain sequence that Mindshell had in his analysis, while being not significantly far behind on the damage.

Tysandr

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

If you consider full arties:
serpent
2h knights (infernal > runie > paladin if you can get runes)
shaman = DWC/DWB knight (infernal > runie > paladin)
bard
sentinel
dragon
occultist
monk (full int)
magi
jester
sylvan
apostate
alchemist
priest
monk (combo)
Dwalker
Druid
blademaster
S+shield knight (all are garbage)

Needs better differentiation on Monks! Shikudo is considerably better than Tekura is. Much tankier even without transmuting, and the damage is a fair bit better. Does need to trans an extra skill, though. I'd probably put it around the same as Sentinel, going from memory of Sentinel bashing, except tankier.

Thanks! I only heard from @puxi that the drain and damage were as bad as normal tekura so I put them together, if That's the case yeah, monk tankiness definitely puts it around sentinel, maybe a touch above because of the beast tankiness.

Tykonos is easily better than bodyblock, which is the only mitigation tekura has (outside of toughness, which shikudo also has so). Tykonos dps is also higher than Tekura by a non-negligible amount, despite not being the 'optimal stance to be in 100% of the time' - I've found (as did Zulah, who I got this from) it's much safer than the rain>oak>willow>rain sequence that Mindshell had in his analysis, while being not significantly far behind on the damage.

That explains a lot.