Quick Questions

Ahmet

Pretty sure it took you 6 to break, which makes 4.2s per limb. Absolutely insane.

Even at 6.3s, with the damage pressure dwb puts out, it's absurd.

Dochitha

Ahmet said:

Pretty sure it took you 6 to break, which makes 4.2s per limb. Absolutely insane.

Even at 6.3s, with the damage pressure dwb puts out, it's absurd.

It's quicker than 4.2s if your breakpoint is 6. 0 LL LL, 2.1 LL LL, 4.2 RL RL, 6.3 RL RL, 8.4 LL RL, 10.5 double break prone. It's absurd if you let it happen that easily. DWB puts forth zero affliction control, which is also a reason why a lot of people are not playing DWB. It has it's struggle tbf tbh, esp against DW the OP class, without affs to hinder you. Again to be fair, BP6 doesn't need pulp to finish, only need 3 momentum to prone. Health is the best defense against DWB, I have no idea why it's designed this way, cos I hate that some of BP7 classess and BP8 has to be pulp and no other options.

Antonius

Dochitha said:

Ahmet said:

Pretty sure it took you 6 to break, which makes 4.2s per limb. Absolutely insane.

Even at 6.3s, with the damage pressure dwb puts out, it's absurd.

It's quicker than 4.2s if your breakpoint is 6. 0 LL LL, 2.1 LL LL, 4.2 RL RL, 6.3 RL RL, 8.4 LL RL, 10.5 double break prone. It's absurd if you let it happen that easily. DWB puts forth zero affliction control, which is also a reason why a lot of people are not playing DWB. It has it's struggle tbf tbh, esp against DW the OP class, without affs to hinder you.

Two ways you can look at this:

1. They're technically prepped as soon as the last hit needed to prep lands, even though you don't have balance to do anything with it yet, so it's 8.4/2 = 4.2 seconds.

2. Being prepped is meaningless, it's not dangerous until you have them prepped and have balance, so it's 10.5/2 = 5.25 seconds.

You'll notice, however, that none of those numbers are faster than 4.2 seconds.

Ahmet

Yet.  

Antonius

Ahmet said:

Yet.  

What?

Ahmet

Wrong threadddddddddddddddddd

Aegoth

dwhirl buff inc

Ahmet

Pending classleads dont fail me now

Calira

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Taryius

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

Calira

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

Jovolo

Are these all level 3 numbers? What's the setup difference (in terms of the numbers) between artefact levels?

Calira

These are level 3 numbers. I don't know the dwhirl or whirl speeds for lower artifacts, but Assault speed is static between them, so even a forged morningstar should be able to threaten much of the same. They're more likely to be interrupted by things like hitting room hinder, but rebounding is easily dealt with by torso expends

Farrah

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

You could fake apply to leg with mending. They have no way of knowing it's not resto. Assuming they then break head, you cure it and live and then should be safe to apply legs once head isn't prepped.

The easier way is to just kill them first and not have to deal with it though.

Calira

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

You could fake apply to leg with mending. They have no way of knowing it's not resto. Assuming they then break head, you cure it and live and then should be safe to apply legs once head isn't prepped.

The easier way is to just kill them first and not have to deal with it though.

Like I said - they can kill you off that mending apply, unless you're already mid tumble. And if you're relying on trickery to live, that's the definition of 'unreliable', which is why I said there's no -reliable- way to survive a DWB setup. The grace of RNJesus holding them back for 4 seconds with room hinder can save you too, but it's not reliable.

Farrah

Calira said:

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

You could fake apply to leg with mending. They have no way of knowing it's not resto. Assuming they then break head, you cure it and live and then should be safe to apply legs once head isn't prepped.

The easier way is to just kill them first and not have to deal with it though.

Like I said - they can kill you off that mending apply, unless you're already mid tumble. And if you're relying on trickery to live, that's the definition of 'unreliable', which is why I said there's no -reliable- way to survive a DWB setup. The grace of RNJesus holding them back for 4 seconds with room hinder can save you too, but it's not reliable.

How can they kill you off the mending apply when they're off balance from breaking your legs?

You have salve balance by the time they have balance.

Armali

At that point they can just ignore the first resto and just wait for the second apply, whatever it may be.

Calira

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

You could fake apply to leg with mending. They have no way of knowing it's not resto. Assuming they then break head, you cure it and live and then should be safe to apply legs once head isn't prepped.

The easier way is to just kill them first and not have to deal with it though.

Like I said - they can kill you off that mending apply, unless you're already mid tumble. And if you're relying on trickery to live, that's the definition of 'unreliable', which is why I said there's no -reliable- way to survive a DWB setup. The grace of RNJesus holding them back for 4 seconds with room hinder can save you too, but it's not reliable.

How can they kill you off the mending apply when they're off balance from breaking your legs?

You have salve balance by the time they have balance.

The initial leg break is a single whirl for 1.8s. If you do as Cooper suggests and apply to head, the followup dwhirl to leg/leg is 2.2s. This adds up rather neatly to 4s, allowing them to recover almost exactly when you do from the head apply.

Farrah

Calira said:

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Farrah said:

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Cooper said:

Have a massive amount of health and apply to head on leg break.

This doesn't save you from pulp, it just delays it. You can't ever apply to your legs or you'll get pulped off of it, so your only option is to sit there and not apply to anything ever. Hope you can tank DWB while prone indefinitely.

Tumbles? Room Hinder? Ice Walls? Rebounding? 

The windows that the DWB has to work with are monumentally huge, so these things won't reliably save you. If you do as Cooper suggested and apply to head on break or simply hold apply, then the knight can follow up the first break with a leg dwhirl, putting them at 7 momentum. At 7 momentum, they can kill you with head whirl (1.8s), assault (2.6s), and then pulp - from head break to death, this is ~4.4s. Since restoration delay is 4s, you have to apply to head within 0.4s of the break to live. So if you even do so much as apply mending and aren't already mid-tumble, you're dead. If you apply restoration at all, you're dead.

You could fake apply to leg with mending. They have no way of knowing it's not resto. Assuming they then break head, you cure it and live and then should be safe to apply legs once head isn't prepped.

The easier way is to just kill them first and not have to deal with it though.

Like I said - they can kill you off that mending apply, unless you're already mid tumble. And if you're relying on trickery to live, that's the definition of 'unreliable', which is why I said there's no -reliable- way to survive a DWB setup. The grace of RNJesus holding them back for 4 seconds with room hinder can save you too, but it's not reliable.

How can they kill you off the mending apply when they're off balance from breaking your legs?

You have salve balance by the time they have balance.

The initial leg break is a single whirl for 1.8s. If you do as Cooper suggests and apply to head, the followup dwhirl to leg/leg is 2.2s. This adds up rather neatly to 4s, allowing them to recover almost exactly when you do from the head apply.

I never said to apply to head. I only agree with Cooper insofar as much as the "have a ton of health" and don't apply resto to legs.

I said apply mending to legs immediately when they break leg. Sure, they can just wait for second resto leg apply. My point was that they don't know you're not applying it.

Calira

Fake applies -can- work, but they're not tremendously likely to if the DWB knows that they're in your repertoire. You'll have to find room for multiple restoration salve applies, and like I said, they only need to find you off salve bal for a measly 0.4s to kill you, or 1.3s if you're mid tumble past a wall. And even if you're not daunted by DWB prone damage, the longer you go without applying, the more you'll need to apply due to their accelerated limb damage for mangles.

Dochitha

I double break legs. You fake a mending apply. I thought you applied restoration to leg so I broke your head, you immediately apply to head. I assault then pulp. I am counting doublewhirl at 2.1s that means pulp lands at 4.7s, your head is healed. DWB is screwed. Even before you room hinder, tumble over wall.

But if the head is broken on single whirl, it's 1.8s, pulp will land at 4.4s. Calira is right, it is tight .4s window. 

Rebounding wise, dwb either has to wait for it to go down and immediately start sequence, or have to fracture once within the sequence which is alright given L3 star.

Need some classleads. 

Cooper

Talking about theory stuff is fine and all, but about .1% of the population will actually make the necessary code to do any of this stuff that is being talked about.

Armali

Since all of this code is in the defense end, that just means the class is overpowered as shit.

Calira

Cooper said:

Talking about theory stuff is fine and all, but about .1% of the population will actually make the necessary code to do any of this stuff that is being talked about.

I don't think 'don't break the head if they applied to it' is tremendously complex. The execution is so damned simple that I don't think it requires code at all, in fact. The hardest thing is queueing up a leap if they tumble over a wall.

Armali

I can't even tell if you guys are agreeing or disagreeing that the DWB setup is unavoidable or not anymore.

Dochitha

Armali said:

I can't even tell if you guys are agreeing or disagreeing that the DWB setup is unavoidable or not anymore.

Hahhaa, I can't even tell if I think DWB is good or bad anymore too!

The setup itself is unavoidable, except using defensive options, kai cripple, tumble, room hinder etc.

I totally hate fighting against DW as DWB, cos distort screw things up (distort also feels more sticky than other hinders), and I don't have unlimited siren songs. Not to mention clumsi para hinder, and the attunes, coming from DW. DW degen also puts out more damage than DWB.

Ankhareoutef

With the swift curse change (no longer lowering bleed's bashing damage), is it better to bash with swiftcurse, or still use jinx?

Solnir

@Ankhareoutef
Swiftcurse still does less to denizens. Just curse doesn't get weaker when you still have swiftcurse charges left.

* Having the SWIFTCURSE defence active will no longer negatively impact the damage of regular curse against denizens.

Farrah

Armali said:

I can't even tell if you guys are agreeing or disagreeing that the DWB setup is unavoidable or not anymore.

It's definitely unavoidable if you're not a tanky class. Which is a balance problem for DWB and monks imo. There's such a massive difference in how well different classes/artie levels can tank from those classes, compared to things like pummel/dsb that are largely unresistable. It makes it impossible to balance the damage.

Pulp will never kill you if you can tank and don't apply to anything but head. That's why I find it hard to call "unavoidable." And that doesn't actually require "coding" other than an alias to toggle salves off, which is all I have. Sure, you have to figure out how to stand someday, but you won't die, unless I missed a DWB damage buff since I tested. I literally tanked for like ten minutes when I was testing it. It didn't feel threatening, which goes back to the whole tanky classes vs nontanky, though. As a squishy class, you just crumble without needing to be pulped.

Can't you also hold apply then time it with rebounding to prevent capitalization? Expend torso uses momentum. Is it possible to use it to prevent that while keeping enough momentum for the assault? I don't know, as I don't know how long it lasts or how much momentum it uses.

Another thing is if you hold apply and the DWB waits for your apply to attack, their momentum should decay, so they can't just wait forever. That's helpful for the fake apply strat at least.

Calira

Farrah said:

Can't you also hold apply then time it with rebounding to prevent capitalization? Expend torso uses momentum. Is it possible to use it to prevent that while keeping enough momentum for the assault? I don't know, as I don't know how long it lasts or how much momentum it uses.

Expend torso uses 1 momentum. Going into the whirl head break, the DWB requires 6 momentum. If you're in a stalemate position where they're keeping you mangled because you never apply, they're going to be able to keep rebounding down 100% of the time at no risk of opening up cure windows. Max momentum fracture is also 1s or so, which doesn't help much if they have a nearly 4s window to break you.