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Braizering and room of effect

MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
I've noticed that, while fighting in certain areas (particularly North of New Thera) the enemy can tumble out of the room, and you can't brazier him due to being in a different area, even though he is one room away. Perhaps we can change the brazier to area AND adjacent rooms? 
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Comments

  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    could also change brazier to ditch the area-thing, and only work within a certain room radius.
    makes more sense than "I can summon the guy that's all the way on the other side of this city! But I cannot summon the dude that's just through that tunnel." (cyrene as example)
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  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    I like the area thing, it's good during raids, etc.
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  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are really only two things that area-wide brazier is good for now. Strip cloak/brazier into your defense group/raid/totem, or pinch cloak/same thing. Only used as a fairly lame way of killing someone.

    1v1 if someone gets 3+ rooms away from you then you weren't prepared to brazier on tumble and that's your fault.

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm gonna go with yes. I had someone fighting me at the great rock gate and would just tumble out to avoid brazier.

    I know that several area-only puppetry skills already work 1 room away and I had thought brazier did too.
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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I see no problem with expanding all area-based abilities to function across 1-room borders, at the very least.
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

    They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

    I like the current state.

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  • XliXli Member Posts: 354 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iocun said:
    Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering...

    On the other hand again: if we changed the behaviour of brazier because of this, wouldn't we consequently also have to change all other kinds of area restrictions? Brazier certainly isn't the only ability that can be severely hindered by area borders, after all.
    Like meteor arrows, kai choke, etc? The precedent is already set
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  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Santar said:
    Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

    They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

    I like the current state.
    I don't think area-hopping is really a 'tactic'. I mean it IS, but...

    it sucks. 
  • HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean
    There -are- ways to beat someone at North of New Thera as Magi, even with tumble into adjacent area changes, but it is obviously more difficult due to brazier restrictions.

    That doesn't necessarily mean we need this sort of brazier change. But, of course, I wouldn't mind a buff. :D

  • CathyCathy Member Posts: 377 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Just play defensive enough to make them think they're on top, move them away from NoT (fake OMGFLEE), then go for the retardation kill.
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  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xli said:
    Iocun said:
    Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering...

    On the other hand again: if we changed the behaviour of brazier because of this, wouldn't we consequently also have to change all other kinds of area restrictions? Brazier certainly isn't the only ability that can be severely hindered by area borders, after all.
    Like meteor arrows, kai choke, etc? The precedent is already set
    I know there's precedent. Things like meteors and kai choke are slightly different though, since their new "nearby-usability" was not really a result of them previously being too weak in their area-wide function, but as part of balancing a general nerf from their previous area-wide state.

    Regardless of that, there being a precedent doesn't change the fact that it's something that will probably have to go through a classlead process.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Santar said:
    Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

    They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

    I like the current state.
    I don't think area-hopping is really a 'tactic'. I mean it IS, but...

    it sucks. 
    Being area-wide is part of the design of brazier, so making use of this limitation is certainly nothing like abusing a bug or loophole. I thus don't see how it is any less of a legitimate tactic than using a shield tattoo to stop an arrow, holding your breath to stop a kai choke, or going indoors to stop a star tarot.

    We can definitely discuss whether area-hopping is OP and if it needs to be nerfed, but it definitely is a tactic right now.
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Didn't say it was a loophole. It just sucks when it happens.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sure! Something sucking doesn't stop it from being a tactic though!
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    I don't see a problem with brazier being workable 1 room away, but I also don't see any problem with how it is now.

    If your opponent is using an area boundary against you, move off the area boundary. Pretty simple solution.

    (There are also better methods of fighting as magi than braziering repeatedly, since that potentially allows them to cure up a lot anyway)

  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,233 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Area boundaries being a counter to retardation is a good thing. Duel on the Rock instead of at NoT.


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  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited January 2014
    Iocun said:
    Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering.

     Area borders, on the other hand, seem much more artificial, since it's not really comprehensible why an area (a very vague concept IRL) would have such a clear border in any kind of realistic world.



    The explanation is the same as that for how brazier (and most of our abilities) works to begin with: Magic! There's nothing realistic about magic, so no point in looking for realism there.

    Also, as you pointed out, it helps makes knowledge of geography relevant, and that's a good thing.
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  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.

  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Cooper said:
    When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.
    Shrines... hmm. That's the first I can think of.
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  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Cooper said:

    When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.

    Breadth-first search hadn't been invented yet?
    :P

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  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,871 Achaean staff
    Its not something that wasn't doable previously. Its a very trivial algorithm to implement, there was just no need pre ranged adjustments.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited January 2014
    Of course it had been, but when I first built Achaea, the interpreted language I was working with was a total piece of shit and doing so was too slow for the server it had to run on (an old risc-basd Acorn machine).

    (Though that's really got nothing to do with the decision. I like area borders. They create meaningful terrain.)
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  • RakonRakon Member Posts: 267 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Braziers without Borders!! 
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