Braizering and room of effect

Mithridates

I've noticed that, while fighting in certain areas (particularly North of New Thera) the enemy can tumble out of the room, and you can't brazier him due to being in a different area, even though he is one room away. Perhaps we can change the brazier to area AND adjacent rooms? 

Tharvis

could also change brazier to ditch the area-thing, and only work within a certain room radius.

makes more sense than "I can summon the guy that's all the way on the other side of this city! But I cannot summon the dude that's just through that tunnel." (cyrene as example)

Mithridates

I like the area thing, it's good during raids, etc.

Cooper

There are really only two things that area-wide brazier is good for now. Strip cloak/brazier into your defense group/raid/totem, or pinch cloak/same thing. Only used as a fairly lame way of killing someone.

1v1 if someone gets 3+ rooms away from you then you weren't prepared to brazier on tumble and that's your fault.

Iocun

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering.

As for next-room braziering, I can see sides both for and against it. I agree that it can be annoying if people tumble across area borders all the time, but on the other hand, I do like it if "geography" plays a part in combat strategy and if clever positioning and movement have an effect at all.

The problem with area borders, in this respect, is mostly that they do not seem very natural. It's one thing if flying, being in the trees, being on water, being indoors matter for combat, since those are all concepts that have a "natural" IC meaning, which we can relate to. Area borders, on the other hand, seem much more artificial, since it's not really comprehensible why an area (a very vague concept IRL) would have such a clear border in any kind of realistic world.

On the other hand again: if we changed the behaviour of brazier because of this, wouldn't we consequently also have to change all other kinds of area restrictions? Brazier certainly isn't the only ability that can be severely hindered by area borders, after all.

I'm not quite sure on all of this, but in the end, what's clear is that it would be a very combat-relevant change that needs to go through a classlead process anyways and probably can't be decided on through this thread.

Xith

I'm gonna go with yes. I had someone fighting me at the great rock gate and would just tumble out to avoid brazier.

I know that several area-only puppetry skills already work 1 room away and I had thought brazier did too.

Santar

Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

I like the current state.

Xli

Iocun said:

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering...

On the other hand again: if we changed the behaviour of brazier because of this, wouldn't we consequently also have to change all other kinds of area restrictions? Brazier certainly isn't the only ability that can be severely hindered by area borders, after all.

Like meteor arrows, kai choke, etc? The precedent is already set

Mithridates

Santar said:

Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

I like the current state.

I don't think area-hopping is really a 'tactic'. I mean it IS, but...

it sucks. 

Hasar

There -are- ways to beat someone at North of New Thera as Magi, even with tumble into adjacent area changes, but it is obviously more difficult due to brazier restrictions.

That doesn't necessarily mean we need this sort of brazier change. But, of course, I wouldn't mind a buff.

Cathy

Just play defensive enough to make them think they're on top, move them away from NoT (fake OMGFLEE), then go for the retardation kill.

Iocun

Xli said:

Iocun said:

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering...

On the other hand again: if we changed the behaviour of brazier because of this, wouldn't we consequently also have to change all other kinds of area restrictions? Brazier certainly isn't the only ability that can be severely hindered by area borders, after all.

Like meteor arrows, kai choke, etc? The precedent is already set

I know there's precedent. Things like meteors and kai choke are slightly different though, since their new "nearby-usability" was not really a result of them previously being too weak in their area-wide function, but as part of balancing a general nerf from their previous area-wide state.

Regardless of that, there being a precedent doesn't change the fact that it's something that will probably have to go through a classlead process.

Iocun

Mithridates said:

Santar said:

Let's not over-simplify these abilities. 

They're in a good place right now - The area hopping allows for some counterplay and tactics, just as the person on the offensive can take that into consideration.

I like the current state.

I don't think area-hopping is really a 'tactic'. I mean it IS, but...

it sucks. 

Being area-wide is part of the design of brazier, so making use of this limitation is certainly nothing like abusing a bug or loophole. I thus don't see how it is any less of a legitimate tactic than using a shield tattoo to stop an arrow, holding your breath to stop a kai choke, or going indoors to stop a star tarot.

We can definitely discuss whether area-hopping is OP and if it needs to be nerfed, but it definitely is a tactic right now.

Mithridates

Didn't say it was a loophole. It just sucks when it happens.

Iocun

Sure! Something sucking doesn't stop it from being a tactic though!

Terra

I don't see a problem with brazier being workable 1 room away, but I also don't see any problem with how it is now.

If your opponent is using an area boundary against you, move off the area boundary. Pretty simple solution.

(There are also better methods of fighting as magi than braziering repeatedly, since that potentially allows them to cure up a lot anyway)

Dunn

Area boundaries being a counter to retardation is a good thing. Duel on the Rock instead of at NoT.

Sarapis

Iocun said:

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with area-wide braziering.

 Area borders, on the other hand, seem much more artificial, since it's not really comprehensible why an area (a very vague concept IRL) would have such a clear border in any kind of realistic world.

The explanation is the same as that for how brazier (and most of our abilities) works to begin with: Magic! There's nothing realistic about magic, so no point in looking for realism there.

Also, as you pointed out, it helps makes knowledge of geography relevant, and that's a good thing.

Cooper

When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.

Trevize

Cooper said:

When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.

Shrines... hmm. That's the first I can think of.

Zeon

Cooper said:

When abilities were first coded they weren't able to do room radius,that is relatively new.

Breadth-first search hadn't been invented yet?
:P

Makarios

Its not something that wasn't doable previously. Its a very trivial algorithm to implement, there was just no need pre ranged adjustments.

Sarapis

Of course it had been, but when I first built Achaea, the interpreted language I was working with was a total piece of shit and doing so was too slow for the server it had to run on (an old risc-basd Acorn machine).

(Though that's really got nothing to do with the decision. I like area borders. They create meaningful terrain.)

Rakon

Braziers without Borders!! 

Penwize

Rakon said:

Brazzers without Borders!! 

I now support this idea.