Replacing Blackjacks

Kyrra

@Bonko

Aktillum

I enjoy the silliness. When I said "the playerbase has matured" I was talking about the rest of you guys, myself excluded. I yearn for the days of Erisian chaos, chocolate gumdrops, landmarking, Ximili's public pots, and Sarapis' profanity-laden shouts about whatever ISP was hosting Achaea at the time.

I'm sure several of you will be vocal about balloon giraffes, I happen to like them. I wish they would come in assorted colors, they're always red and sometimes a Jester wants to ride a yellow, blue or green giraffe. The "runaway! runaway!" line could be changed, since it's obviously from a recurring gag in the Holy Grail.

Mickeys are definitely OOC, though there is a contrast. The real life mickey was a powder slipped into bar drinks, and mickeys in Achaea are lozenges. They're probably fine, though people have brought it up the past. It's one of those things you overlook, like Maim.

Bop needs a new attack message, nobody will debate that. "You reach out and bop X on the nose". Sometimes you see "You bring your blackjack crashing down on X". Maybe it could just always be the latter message. Of course, my OP in this thread is clearly the best solution.

The message for banana peels is pretty awful. "You hoot like a monkey and your hands are filled with banana peels, which you throw on the ground." It could be something like "You mischievously discard a handful of banana peels on the ground for unsuspecting victims."

Badjokes are fine. Someone like @Iocun will say their character shouldn't be forced to slap me, and compare it to the horrible reactions in food descriptions. Someone like @Iocun will also say that it's horribly schtick-ish, outright slap-stick (because you slap the Jester, amirite?) and forces Jesters into the trope of bad comedy performers. It serves a very useful combat purpose though, and you can't re-flavour badjokes, so either keep it as is or delete it and add a new way for Jesters to drop an opponent's shield/rebounding.

Those are really the only offenders that get talked about most often.

Xith

Shirszae said:

Credible is probably the wrong word. He means jesters right now are mostly seen as ridiculous, hard to take seriously, etc. Which they are, really, because of pranks. I mean, yes, they are jesters. But right now they are mostly seen as jokes in themselves.

Xith

@Sarapis They got started on it back here.


http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/553/jester-class/p1


As a jester, these debates kind of evoke Greyface to me. I get where they're coming from, but if you're looking for haughty politicians, deadpan combat junkies, and a well-scripted nothing-unpredictable environment where everything is logical... congratulations, this is Achaea, and you can find just that.

But if you're looking for silliness, laughter in the face of danger, aren't looking for anything logical and just sometimes want to watch the world burn... congratulations, this is Achaea, and you can also find that.

The thing is, the game has "matured" and things like Bopalopia and other such mischief hardly happen anymore. You can be griefy, but after a while you're likely to be zapped or shrubbed if you make other players' lives too miserable.
To get all historical, jesters often employed tactics that were fun for themselves at the expense of others, even the royalty they entertained. But part of the fun is in walking that line carefully so you get to keep your head. In its nature, it's a class that pushes boundaries, and not necessarily one that's designed to be liked.

Some people find it hard to cope with the creativity in a shield-dropping magic that's channeled through terrible jokes.
Other people think it makes perfect sense and would just as soon see the Carnivalis Institute of Jestering renamed the Insane Clown Posse. The former group seems to think it already is the latter title.

So yeah, to weigh in as a long time jester, it's in our character to spite others, and for that reason, I think it'd be funny to leave things as they are.
The one thing I'm willing to concede needs work is Giraffe, but I'll touch on that in the following post.

Nim

Jesters right now are a very specific kind of silly. A pseudo-OOC kind that grants no credibility to a large, large variety of entirely valid forms of jester roleplay.

Want to be clever with words? Nope, you get bad jokes instead. Want to be a bitter satirist? Nope, you're gonna hoot like a monkey. Want to be a quiet acrobat? You get to loudly yell Run away! instead. Want to be a master of puzzles and deceptions? Arguably, you still can be, as long as your favored masquerade is being a fool.

Xith

It boils down to a Delphinus comment on the thread, which is that "Erisian chaos is slowly being axed from the narrative and that's a good thing."

I don't know, Sarapis/Tecton/Garden. What do You think? It's either make minor tweaks to jester flavour, or feed them to Bal'met along with Pandora's head the next time he comes a-knockin'. I know a handful of people would cheer for that, but another handful of people would quit the game forever.
We're adults, sure, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate imagination. Otherwise we wouldn't be playing a game without graphics where you become your character and have more creativity and influence than other games can offer.

And now some blockquotes to sum up my opinions from a year ago that still hold:

Xith said:

Tanris said:
People saying that jesters should get a dark set of flavour abilities are only serving to highlight the issue. That being, the class skills should not force a particular playstyle upon that character: if you are needing to have separate sets of abilities for the same class, that is a failed design. That is what emotes and tmotes are for. Jester flavour text should be similar to all other classes: generic, good writing with the potential to expand in any direction the player chooses (within reason). Necromancy is actually fairly similar to this (vivisect diabolical laughing), but is generally disregarded because the vivisect looks cool, whereas most jester things just evoke the urge to cringe.

While occultists have to be secretive and learned. Every class has its given roleplay, but people are always welcome to draw outside the lines. In fact, there is nothing that violates a Mhaldorian gloom-and-doom persona in the flavor text itself. Jitb is plenty gruesome and wicked, albeit in a playful way. But jester skills (pranks/puppetry) are sadistic in their theme, so it's not a mechanical issue.

The way I see it, if you have a problem with certain people, it isn't because they're jesters. They'd likely play their character similarly by any other class. Some people like to be loose, others prefer to be uptight. I've seen jesters who are both. But to be honest, I find the pk-jesters to be boring because their profession contributes nothing to their character. (I'm doing it right.)

Xith said:

Nakari said:

Xith said:

While occultists have to be secretive and learned. Every class has its given roleplay, but people are always welcome to draw outside the lines. In fact, there is nothing that violates a Mhaldorian gloom-and-doom persona in the flavor text itself.

I dare you to try to look like you should be taken seriously while riding a balloon giraffe



That's the beauty of jester though. You laugh at them, and then they chomp your f%^&#*$ head off. You can totally turn balloon animals into a thing of fear, except that jester has been on a nerf streak for a little while.

So I would either buff balloon giraffes or replace them. Possibly even add more balloon techniques than just a giraffe, for both performance and combat purposes. Balloon animals could be its own metamorphosis skill. That way, people recognize that the non-threatening giraffe could in mere moments become... I dunno, something like a balloon butterfly that transfixes.

OMG WAIT, A SEASONED COMBATANT WOULD NEVER FALL FOR BEING TRANSFIXED BY A BUTTERFLY!
Yep, better rework forestal butterflies when you fix Badjoke.

(P.S. Omg if you add transfix to our writhe arsenal I will class change straight back to jester...)

Nellaundra

If you have to actively fight against the flavor of your class in order to be taken at all seriously, that's a failed design. I'll write up a list of the most egregious offenders later, for now, migraine takes priority.

Trey

Reposted from the other thread for @Sarapis -

Trey said:

Handspring          Leap at your foes in neighboring rooms.

Props               Wish for the props that every good jester needs.

Balloons            Float to the skies with balloons. ***

Slipperiness        Let your bad self shine on through.

Bop                 Bop your enemies with a blackjack. ***

Giraffes            Twist a balloon into a giraffe. Wheee! ***

Backflip            Flip over obstructions like a monkey on kola.

Hocuspocus          Cast coloured illusions to dazzle those about you. ***

Runaway             And thou didst beat a brave and hasty retreat. ***

Concussionbomb      Momentarily stun everyone in the room.

Butterflybomb       Blast people from the skies and trees.

Balloonhandoff      Launch your foes to the clouds with a big red balloon! ***

Backhandspring      Leap out of the room striking someone on the way out.

Balancing           You're like a cat, you are.

Smokebomb           Choke all in the room with a plume of smoke.

Juggling            Damn, you're good.

Webbomb             Explode strands of rope to bind everyone in the room.

Acrobatics          Leap and bounce to make yourself a difficult target to hit.

Badjoke             It's everyone ELSE that has the bad sense of humour! ***

Mickey              Slip some poor sucker a mickey.

Traps               The ability to search for traps in your location.

Disarm              Attempt to disarm a trap.

Graffiti            Doesn't everyone deserve to share your wisdom?

Somersault          Quickly somersault past obstructions, even when bound.

Arrowcatch          Pluck arrows from the air with the greatest of ease.

Bananas             Litter the floor with slippery banana peels. ***

Firecracker         Construct festive firecrackers.

Itchpowder          Uurch...ergh! *scratch scratch* Arrgh! *scratch scratch*

Dustbomb            Numb the sense of your victims with a bomb.

Jack-in-the-Box     An innocent musical toy with a vicious bite! ***

Timers              Give your bombs a delayed effect.

Suicidemice         Brainwash mice to carry bombs on their backs. Groovy. ***

*** 'd need to either go or get a rework.

Balloons - Get rid of this, give them Highleap or an equivalent/improvement instead. It makes sense, they're ridiculously acrobatic.

Bop - Change to Slice, use daggers. Forged daggers are cheap and prevalent enough that there'd be no supply issue, and the various daggers available through denizens would be useful for more than show now, perhaps. Artefact Blackjack stats will work fine for this. "You lash swiftly out with a brazen hair dagger, slicing deeply into a baby rat.". Maybe cause bleeding? I don't know.

Giraffes - Just no.

Hocuspocus - Replace the words with some generic muttering message. "You mutter swiftly under your breath, bending an illusion to your will."

Runaway - Reskin, don't make them have to ride anything, particularly that retarded giraffe.

Balloonhandoff - Don't require the balloon. Call it Launch. "Grabbing Delphinus by the shoulders, you tumble backwards, pulling him with you. Gathering your legs up to your chest, you kick out as you roll, launching him skyward."

Badjoke - Call it Taunt, give it a generic jeering/catcalling message.

Bananas - Call it bearings, have them cost 1 steel to CONSTRUCT BEARINGS. "With deft fingers, you quickly construct a handful of steel marbles." Self explanatory on how they work.

Jackinthebox - Replace with Redsmile, reflavour it, otherwise identical mechanically to JITB in terms of how it works/end result. 

Suicidemice - I have no idea what to do with these. I have literally never seen them used. Replace with Clockworkbomb, maybe? 1 iron per one since it's more complex. Have it roll on gears/waddle on little clockwork feet like a windup toy and blow up. Mechanic similar to Thurisaz.

Xith

Hocuspocus is invisible now,
Balloonhandoff is next-to-useless. I would say give a different mass/levitation stripping skill as part of puppetry. Or fix puppet strip, which nobody uses for obvious reasons. not opposed to the Sonya move from Mortal Kombat, but a little too monk-ish.

Peels were fixed mechanically, I can't remember if the hooting was removed yet, but no to marbles unless they're somehow an alternative that doesn't stack with peels. (Maybe tripwire trap. Would like to see jester traps)

Redsmile... ehhhh, rather not rip off Christopher Nolan movies. Jitb is permanent.

Runaway change might be reasonable, just give jesters dash.

Mice don't get used but they're probably fine, just need to be able to train more than 5 at once.

Trey

Xith said:

Hocuspocus is invisible now,
Balloonhandoff is next-to-useless. I would say give a different mass/levitation stripping skill as part of puppetry. Or fix puppet strip, which nobody uses for obvious reasons. not opposed to the Sonya move from Mortal Kombat, but a little too monk-ish.

Peels were fixed mechanically, I can't remember if the hooting was removed yet, but no to marbles unless they're somehow an alternative that doesn't stack with peels. (Maybe tripwire trap. Would like to see jester traps)

Redsmile... ehhhh, rather not rip off Christopher Nolan movies. Jitb is permanent.

Runaway change might be reasonable, just give jesters dash.

Mice don't get used but they're probably fine, just need to be able to train more than 5 at once.

Redsmile I pictured more of like a 'I weaseled my way behind you and slit your throat from ear to ear' thing rather than a 'Do you want to know how I got these scars?' thing.

Aktillum

The problem with removing balloon giraffes is that they serve several purposes;
1: A low level mount for novice Jesters to cross water
2: A combat mount that increases Jester dodging
3: Jesters are able to backflip while mounted on giraffes, whereas they can't with regular mounts.
4: The runaway ability, which has similar balance to dashing

There are downsides to a Jester riding a balloon giraffe versus riding a normal mount.
1: Can't trample with giraffes
2: Can be sweepkicked by monks while riding a giraffe vs can't be sweepkicked while riding normal mounts

Of course you can argue Jesters also have flying chariots from Tarot which would be a perfectly fine replacement for giraffes, since they work nearly exactly the same, mechanically. You could replace Runaway with a chariot-dashing ability.

Highleap is not a suitable replacement for inflating balloons when you consider balloons are a temporary flying mechanic that allows the Jester to move around while the balloon is inflated, carries them back into the sky if tentacled, and allows the (much despised) strategy of using the Shackles artefact. Highleap ala Bards / Blademasters is a simple, one-time jump into the skies that does not have the aforementioned benefits.

Suicidemice are actually often used, you just haven't seen that many Jester fighters, but I've personally used them many times in both group and 1v1 combat

Balloonhandoff is not entirely useless, it allows a certain kill strategy with butterfly bombs, it's just super hard to pull off in today's SVO world which is why nobody does it anymore. Certainly it's still possible if the Jester has aeonlocked their opponent, but most opt for the JITB or voyria kill rather than mucking around with Puppet Strip levitation/ balloonhandoff / throw butterfly bombs.

I'd ask that before we call for the outright deletion of certain abilities, we take into consideration the actual mechanics and strategies behind those abilities. The ACC does not simply go "delete this skill, it's dumb", there are shitloads of things taken into consideration due to balance.

Blujixapug

Xith said:

As a jester, these debates kind of evoke Greyface to me.

So hard to take you credibly when you sincerely say stuff like that.

I get what you're saying, trying to defend the lighthearted jester aesthetic. But I think the way it's implemented in Achaea is terribly muddled, and that makes it hard to support. I think ridiculous concepts can be executed successfully. But they need to be consistent, and they need to be grounded. Jesters are neither.

They're performers incorporating clowning, acrobatics, and puppetry, with elements of slapstick and mime. There's no reason those things couldn't work.

But instead of this being grounded and made to work in the context of Achaea, the absurd elements are played up: banana peels, balloon giraffes, runaway, and jack-in-the-box are like something out of a cartoon. Their guild estate is a ridiculous funfair. It sticks out really badly, compared to other classes, other elements of the game, that try to fit in.

Bombs work, acrobatics works, graffiti works. I really like SuicideMice how they are, I think they're one part of jesters that fits into Achaea very well - you can see they way the idea is played straight, but they're still funny because their ridiculousness speaks for itself. I actually like BadJoke too, because I love bad Christmas cracker jokes and I don't think its execution is too over the top. HocusPocus is whatever.

I don't think the 'psycho jester' archetype is an improvement (Joker/Pennywise/Violator etc) since it tries to make them less lighthearted - and takes them quite far in the other direction - instead of trying to ground them better in the world and aesthetic of Achaea. I would prefer to see the more silly aspects of jesters toned down. The CIJ estate is another issue, but idk how you could fix/change/replace/retcon that without annoying a lot of people. Right now the class sticks out because they're like cartoon characters in the LOTR world. I'm sure some members of the CIJ think that's a great thing, but I don't.

Nim

Blujixapug said:

But instead of this being grounded and made to work in the context of Achaea, the absurd elements are played up: banana peels, balloon giraffes, runaway, and jack-in-the-box are like something out of a cartoon. Their guild estate is a ridiculous funfair. It sticks out really badly, compared to other classes, other elements of the game, that try to fit in.

I wouldn't even mind if they stayed cartoonish, if it was done in a respectful, aware sort of way. The problem is that they're still a very specific kind of slapstick cartoon. Like, I'd be cool if Jesters were kinda like The Mask, but it's more like they're the stereotypical Looney Tune without even encompassing the full depth of what Looney Tunes was.

Like, Bugs Bunny probably used the banana trick at some point in his life, but I somehow doubt he ever hooted like a monkey. He was sly and clever about it.

Xith

Nim said:

Blujixapug said:

But instead of this being grounded and made to work in the context of Achaea, the absurd elements are played up: banana peels, balloon giraffes, runaway, and jack-in-the-box are like something out of a cartoon. Their guild estate is a ridiculous funfair. It sticks out really badly, compared to other classes, other elements of the game, that try to fit in.

I wouldn't even mind if they stayed cartoonish, if it was done in a respectful, aware sort of way. The problem is that they're still a very specific kind of slapstick cartoon. Like, I'd be cool if Jesters were kinda like The Mask, but it's more like they're the stereotypical Looney Tune without even encompassing the full depth of what Looney Tunes was.

Like, Bugs Bunny probably used the banana trick at some point in his life, but I somehow doubt he ever hooted like a monkey. He was sly and clever about it.

Xith slyly drops a banana peel and brushes his shouldas off like a pimp Naga.

Atalkez

This is what I see when I think of a Jester.

Not sure where you all come off thinking you can't be a dark/ruthless prankster.

Trevize

You see it being broken? :P

That said, I'd like the flavor to be a little more generic in anything that's over the top, so people have more freedom to play it silly/dark/whatever.

Xith

You see a Mhaldorian jester with a balloon giraffe and you just know he's going to give it to your infant child. Balloons are dangerous for babies! See? Macabre.

Blujixapug

Trevize said:

You see it being broken? :P

That said, I'd like the flavor to be a little more generic in anything that's over the top, so people have more freedom to play it silly/dark/whatever.

Rehosted Atalkez's link on imgur & shrunk it down a bit:



People need to stop using funnyjunk. First, it's awful. Second, you can't hotlink direct link stuff there because they do weird redirecty stuff to drive traffic to their site, so linked images get broken. It will appear to you, since you have it cached, but the image will appear broken for other people. Use imgur.

Accipiter

It seems the main problem is really that jesters are all doing the same things for their attacks and comedy is only funny the first few times. You have to admit, the first time you saw a jester doing anything you smiled.

The jester silliness isn't worse than necro/chaos/devo class things. Everything people are saying can be boiled down to 'Class X is forced to be alignment Y by flavour', it is just Evil/Chaotic/Good things are awesome at the start and end up being ignorable. Jesters are funny at the start and end up being annoying, because comedy does that.

Changing the theme of the class is as dumb as changing the theme of devotion to move it away from all the praying to gods, but any flavour changes you do will simply become annoying again fairly soon if they are actually funny.

Xith

Asmodron

Aktillum said:

The problem with removing balloon giraffes is that they serve several purposes;

Of course you can argue Jesters also have flying chariots from Tarot which would be a perfectly fine replacement for giraffes, since they work nearly exactly the same, mechanically. You could replace Runaway with a chariot-dashing ability.

Out of all your posts, this is perhaps the only comment I slightly agree with. Frankly jesters already have chariots and I would personally -love- if some more focus was placed on the chariot. As it stands, the chariot for both jesters and occultists is just 'there', with no real significance, even with its amazing flavor. Occultists eventually get their Chimera which is all they need. I would love to see chariots moved into more Jester-esque territory.

Asmodron

Atalkez said:

This is what I see when I think of a Jester.

Not sure where you all come off thinking you can't be a dark/ruthless prankster.

- Reaching over with your blackjack, you bop on the nose.

- Hooting like a monkey, you toss several banana peels onto the ground.

- A balloon giraffe is here.

I cant imagine why...

(These arent the generic messages, but as close as I could remember)

Jovolo

Reskins won't change mechanics. Reskins are needed.

Jovolo

However, an entirely new thread should be used for that. I'll start one in an hour for ideas if no one else has.