Momentum vs. Prep Classes

Nizaris

This is likely best kept for classleads, but seeing as how we already finished a round, I'm assuming that it will be a while before the next one. I apologize that I did not think of this in time for the classleads, but it has been something that has bugged me for some time, and I did not know how to begin to address the issue. I'm not sure if this is the correct solution to the issue, but I figured that I would give it a try.

PROBLEM: There exists a broad divide between momentum-based and limb prep-based classes -- that a break in combat resets offence for momentum-based classes, but not for prep-based classes. This ends up providing incentive for limb prep classes to flee combat against momentum classes. Hindering makes this more difficult (but not impossible), but does not solve the core problem: incentive should be provided to limb prep classes to stay in the room in order to achieve their goal.

PROPOSED SOLUTION 1: Provide an additional functionality to RESTORE, such that:

1. If the user is at full health, and
2. if the user remains at full health for the duration of the channeling, and
3. if the user does not have any broken limbs at levels 1, 2, or 3; then

the user's prepped (ie. unbroken) limbs will be reset to zero hits.

Note well: unlike the present use of RESTORE (which would still be in effect to heal level 1 broken limbs), limb damage is healed at the end of the channel time, and not at the beginning. The requirements for maintenance of full health are to make it functionally similar to the use of an editor; this is not something that should be used in the midst of an ongoing attack, but rather at the end or at a pause. Balance/equilibrium would be required but not consumed, and any action would cancel the channel. Channel time should be short, and similar to time needed to heal from a momentum class; while still being long enough for the opposing class to regain balance/equilibrium and attack again in order to stop any restore attempted mid-combat. I hesitantly propose 2-5 seconds. 

PROPOSED SOLUTION 2: Like solution 1, but with consumption of balance and/or equilibrium.

PERCEIVED IMPLEMENTATION PROBLEMS: I have never played a limb prep class. I do not know how much time it takes for a limb prep class to execute their offense. I am, however, under the impression that it takes longer to prep limbs than it does to achieve a lock, for example. Or to setup for a reave/catharsis/absolve/broken star. Therefore, it is likely that the speed of execution will need to be looked at, and balanced accordingly. This likely means that the number of hits required to break a limb needs to be reduced.

Nizaris

Addendum to PERCEIVED PROBLEMS: I suspect that there are likely a host of issues that would crop up with balancing a system like this, and sort of ripple through many abilities in ways that are difficult to predict. So, coding/testing time is an additional problem. Still, I think that moving all classes toward a momentum-base is probably a good goal to strive toward.

Penwize

A particular difficulty I see with this is that it means if you successfully run and restore, then come back to the fight, the opponent has no way of knowing whether you did or not.  Pre-damage is already a giant pain to deal with for limb prep classes, and this would add another layer to that where you're not sure they fully cured their limbs or not.  This sort of happens already with asking someone to reset your limb for you, and it sucks.  That's something momentum classes don't really have to deal with since they're always starting from 0, except in cases like hypno or if they're using limb damage in their momentum.

If sawbones was made basline survival or weaponry instead of a trait, that could counteract this I suppose.

Nellaundra

If a limb prep class doesn't know if their opponent is prepped (or if they come into a match with damaged limbs already) then killing is essentially impossible without arties or an icon boost or something.

Arador

The problem is that affliction classes can kill a lot faster than prep classes. So while they run and undo 30 seconds of your work, you can run and undo 2-5 minutes of theirs. Yes not all take that long to prep but a Knight trying to get both legs prepped through smart parrying.... Gods that would be insanely OP. Affliction classes are generally MUCH better at hindering.

Nizaris

Penwize said:

A particular difficulty I see with this is that it means if you successfully run and restore, then come back to the fight, the opponent has no way of knowing whether you did or not.  Pre-damage is already a giant pain to deal with for limb prep classes, and this would add another layer to that where you're not sure they fully cured their limbs or not.  This sort of happens already with asking someone to reset your limb for you, and it sucks.  That's something momentum classes don't really have to deal with since they're always starting from 0, except in cases like hypno or if they're using limb damage in their momentum.

If sawbones was made basline survival or weaponry instead of a trait, that could counteract this I suppose.

Sure. Understandable. A few points, though:

• It may just promote 'resetting to zero', which would be a boon to prep classes at the start of a fight.
• This system would reset all four limbs, or nothing. Hitting already-hit limbs (assuming partial prep of one or more limbs) would determine quickly if a reset was done to all of them mid-encounter.
  
• By reducing the number of hits required to break a limb, not only is the speed of limb prep classes increased, but the amount of time lost due to pre-damage is decreased.
• I definitely agree with making a way of diagnosing broken limbs possible with low skill to limb prep classes. Either in survival, or in their respective skills.

Nellaundra

Nizaris said:

• By reducing the number of hits required to break a limb, not only is the speed of limb prep classes increased, but also is the amount of time that is lost due to pre-damage.

This is something that absolutely cannot happen.  Yes, it's absolutely awful for the amount of hits that knight classes need, but Monks and Blademasters can prep in less than a minute.  When I was a Monk (no arties, no Icon, only Tekura and some basic Kaido like transmutation) I could prep/kill someone in about 45 seconds on average.  Prep speed is fine where it's at, I believe, though I wouldn't complain if Knight classes were looked at in that regard.

E: To add to this, a heavily artifacted BM can go from 0 to Brokenstar in 20-25 seconds.

Nizaris

Nellaundra said:

If a limb prep class doesn't know if their opponent is prepped (or if they come into a match with damaged limbs already) then killing is essentially impossible without arties or an icon boost or something.

Agreed.

Arador said:

The problem is that affliction classes can kill a lot faster than prep classes. So while they run and undo 30 seconds of your work, you can run and undo 2-5 minutes of theirs. Yes not all take that long to prep but a Knight trying to get both legs prepped through smart parrying.... Gods that would be insanely OP. Affliction classes are generally MUCH better at hindering.

Agreed. I mentioned this in my perceived problems. I think that the time needed to prep needs to be reduced to make these prep classes capable of killing on the order of time that momentum classes presently are.

Aepas

no

Daklore

Remember when Runewardens could burst you down in ten seconds? Good times, good times.

But yeah, monks and blademasters are probably the only limb-prep based classes that wouldn't really care as much about this(I mean, don't they already prep you in 30 seconds?). For Knights, yeah, we'd be completely and utterly screwed.

For a Runewarden, who only has disembowel to fall back on as a "kill-secure", we have to a) break both your legs, b) stick you with a damaged torso, good luck with mangled(90% of the time, good luck with even the damaged torso), and c) more often than not break an arm if not both to keep you from curing your damned legs before we can impale. On average, this is about 7-9 DSLs--not individual slashes, doubleslashes--per limb. Assuming an average of at least 4200 health(which is fairly common now, compared to like, two years ago, when it was more around 3800 ... give or take).

Without the torso damage, disembowel is pretty laughable. Granted, Runewardens do have a bit of extra burst they can do with it if they begin it before the break combo ... which practically screams, "oh hey, by the way... your limbs are set. Better play defensive(spam touch shield) for thirty seconds."

But no, momentum based classes, for the most part, aren't losing five minutes of prep, and I'd imagine almost all, if not all, momentum based fighters have a way to determine how far their momentum is. Whereas limb based classes won't have a clue if you can leave the room and reset yourself. This is why you can no longer attack yourself while clumsy, is it not? Limb prep has -no- reliable method of telling you whether your opponent is prepped or not. And most of the time, you're practically guessing on the prep to begin with.

... I'm sure I stopped making sense, or a point, in here somewhere. It's 1 AM, my brain is shutting off and it still wanted to respond to this for some reason.

Eld

Daklore said:

Remember when Runewardens could burst you down in ten seconds? Good times, good times.

You mean yesterday?

Niraaeth

@Eld said:

Daklore said:

Remember when Runewardens could burst you down in ten seconds? Good times, good times.

You mean yesterday?

With the risk of overloading the forums with my posts... The Lotus has noticed your continuous presence on the forums and lack in game. We don't approve.

Eld

Niraaeth said:

@Eld said:

Daklore said:

Remember when Runewardens could burst you down in ten seconds? Good times, good times.

You mean yesterday?

With the risk of overloading the forums with my posts... The Lotus has noticed your continuous presence on the forums and lack in game. We don't approve.

Nor do I! Not the place for that conversation, though.

I can probably log in long enough for a good HDF, though, if that would help.

Nizaris

Nizaris said:

This likely means that the number of hits required to break a limb needs to be reduced.

I understand that my original post was quite long, and might not have been read in its entirety. However, I think it important to point this out.

In my mind, it would be best if every class was essentially a momentum-based class: capable of killing in 30-60 seconds, with their offense capable of being fully healed/reset in 5-10 seconds.

Aepas

no

Mishgul

There are only 3 types of combat as it is without it being dumbed down even more. (Limb prep for finish, aff stack to a well timed third ability for lock and alchemist).

Vodun/puppetry does not count because anyone who uses these skillsets is an awful person.

Daklore

Eld said:

Daklore said:

Remember when Runewardens could burst you down in ten seconds? Good times, good times.

You mean yesterday?

I meant with double hugalaz procs on high damage battleaxes, actually

Nim

I might be weird, but I actually like long fights. My favorite fight was a 30 minute arena match against a priest.

Mishgul

Nothing wrong with a long fight, but there is a difference between a long fight and a boring fight.

Antonius

Unfortunately this isn't going to make boring fights interesting, it's just going to make more fights boring.

Arador

Knights can at least get a decent parry bypass to compensate. Rebounding and dodging makes the standard options near impossible.

Iocun

This would make parrying entirely worthless however, as pretty much all the other limb classes already don't have to care about parrying at all, which sucks, because parry is a super neat ability in theory, and I'd love for it to become a bit more relevant again.

Main problem about it is that static parrying is the best choice most of the time, so the entire game of trying to guess your opponent's next hit and parrying there is avoided anyways. I have an idea that might help with this, which I wanted to add in the last classlead round, but decided not to, since it's kind of big, and they were only doing more minor changes this time. This change would also make parry bypassing no longer so important!

Arador

Yeah I agree that parry should be relevant but sadly a lot of classes NEED both legs to have much chance of a kill on a decent opponent. All other limb breaking classes have decent mechanical bypasses to parry. Knights have options but none are reliable in all cases. Knights also have the longest prep time even without parry. In terms of Parry bypass I would say it is Runie>Paladin>Infernal. And I get that in a way as Vivisection is the most reliable of the killing methods against standard opponents. But sadly, once someone figures out the simple way to avoid it they can only really be vivisected with 4 limb setups that means hello parry.

Then off course you have classes that can never be vivisected like serpent, dragon, priest. So your option becomes DSB and once again you are sick with parry. I would be happy if parry mattered against all limb breaking classes but that would require more alternatives to kill.

Gamoneterik

Call me a choob... but what's "parry bypassing"?

Iocun

Stuff that a class can do which will stop parry from working on their next limb attack, like dragon enmesh or a monk starting all combos with roundhouse/sweepkick/jumpkick/curare-axe to paralyse or prone.

And Arador: I agree that parrying is an issue here. I just think there are better ways to deal with it than just adding another bypass. Mainly by adding incentives for moving one's parry around.

Anedhel

Make parry give a chance to block an attack based on your dexterity! (Maybe like 35% + 5(every point over 10 in dex)%)

Trueparry has a base of 50%!

Jovolo

Knights have very reliable ways to bypass parry. There's nothing wrong with arm breaks, prone-prep, curare sticking, or even web if they don't have buckawns. (Unless you opt to hinder yourselves by fighting with sub par weapons). Paladin's have the hardest time, with Infernal being almost equal to Runewarden.

Parry is a very important defence against disembowel, damnation and vivisect. Why would we ever reduce its effectiveness? Unless a SERIOUS rework of limb prep and the Knights' finishers were to be implemented.

Dumbing down combat even further is probably one of the worst things that could happen to Achaea.

p.s. it's very difficult to comment on knight balancing with an overhaul as large as weaponry is imminent. The OP has already been addressed by classleads really.

Anedhel

Nothing wrong with 12-18 DSLs to get two DSLs on a limb, assuming someone doesn't touch shield on first arm break (which everyone should do)?

Nothing wrong with break-prep being worthless to set up both legs at the same time?

Nothing wrong with asking someone to rely on tattoos to make their finisher viable?

Hmm.

ETA: The dex-based parry thing was a joke, for the record.

ETA2: How exactly is Runie better than the other knight classes at bypassing parry? Unless you just mean the speed boost to rapiers? I confus.

Jovolo

Yes. Apart from the fact Runewarden's have Nairat additionally and you blatantly are not doing it correctly if you only get 2 dsl's on parried limb for a double arm break.

Also how fast is every class' typical attack? Quicker than 1.7 - 1.9 seconds? No. Maybe Sentinel, maybe other Knight's, maybe Bard. Good thing Infernal's have Frenzy and Runewarden's get Freeze. Even of they do react quick enough: Touch shield - raze - continue.

It's only Paladin's that have the right to complain about ineffective parry bypass and an unfortunate alternative to disembowel.

Runewardens are better due to faster weapons, and nairat. Which is a huge factor. They also get to block flooding and indoor "meteor" vs shield for a bonus.

It's not like they're the best to play (a silly argument), but they do have the best parry bypass.

Anedhel

Hmm. Your math seems off.

2 level 2 restoration breaks = 8 seconds no parry.

2.3s-1.9s DSL speed is average, I think (I don't think many runies are under 1.9. I have 237's and I'm at 2.1 myself, and, yes, nimble).

Depending on latency, that gives you 4-ish seconds to work with, since you have to break the second arm in sequence. 4s = 2 DSLs. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Freeze doesn't help you bypass parry, Nairat's not reliable, unless you're talking about shiver-disrupt to keep 'em from shielding. I really don't see how Nairat is a 'big factor'.

So, in the case of shield, 4s window minus 1.3-1.5s raze = 1 DSL. Two arm breaks to get one unparried hit isn't unreasonable?

Speed buff, okay. I buy that. But 20 points in speed is not so huge a thing that I'd say Runies are decidedly more viable limb breakers than any other knight class (I'd wager damage is actually a bigger deal, since 20 damage could, theoretically, knock a DSL off prep).

Flood blocking isn't part of this argument about parry, not sure why that was brought up. Unless you mean you should rune-stack to prep (i.e. during arm breaks) to eliminate shield coming up? Which is great, except people can see runes coming from a mile away, and really have no business sitting there to get thurisaz'd. It's not really something you can bank on. Unless you're seriously suggesting you should triple-break in order to prep a limb (so they can't run, off a leg break).

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. A lot of the stuff you've brought up isn't relevant.

Rom

Should trans weaponry or make sure that you actually chose nimble because you are DSLing too slow for 237s. Isaz, nairat runeblades, and liberal use of epseth and epteth are fantastic, alongside being able to bait or barge into wunjo/nairat if you're really desperate. Then you have all the curare-based methods that you'll see other knight classes using, but you'll do it faster.

Your rapier speed makes epseth/epteth kind of weak unless you get really lucky nairats, but the point is that being frozen stiff means you cannot parry. Nairat proccing on epseth/epteth means they have to choose between curing their shivering/frozen or fixing their limbs. Depending on their curing priority they are often going to end up with two shriveled arms or a frozen body, and the best part about this is that when you're laying into the parried limb it's perpetuating that status. Jovolo made good points in my eyes.