Knightly questions!

Dunn

That's my pug, Lucy  

All knight classes are fun. I've only ever seriously played runewarden, though, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Not having to be in a turbo aligned faction is a bonus as a runie, but that's my opinion.

Jarrod

Technically he could be a non-Mhaldorian Infernal and be perfectly fine as long as he didn't attack Mhaldor.

Bringing up irrelevant things like that to a discussion on the differences between the classes is a bit ridiculous.

Steuern

@Dunn Awesome! Mine is named Oscar haha, he's kind of old now but the best dog ever I've been a runewarden in the past and I have a young paladin now, he's kind of fun I guess I like how he can help others, always been a perk to me.

Isaiah

Antonius said:

@Jules: Runewarden is the video that makes you feel slightly unclean after watching, regardless of how much you enjoyed it at the time.

2 girls 1 cup?

Kyrra

Jules said:

I defer to Kyrra.

Runewardens are just.. so.. well.. for me it's all about the props. And size is very important. Anything under five feet just isn't worth your time, and over five feet just isn't managable with two hands.

And with Mizik as runie, it gets really messy really fast but is very exhilarating.

Exelethril

Infernals definitely have an edge here, I think. There are so many ways to pull off a vivisect and a few of them require someone to restore at a 1 second(?) margin with frenzy up to avoid it. Also, vivis are kinda easy to pull off and more efficient than disembowel as a finisher, sometimes.

Jovolo

Vivi is very situational. If you're a Knigh and you get vivisected for example, you did something terribly wrong. If anything, it's a perfect parry bypass for disembowel. (Damage>Vivisect) it's probably one of the most perfect abilities in the game that the rest should strive to be.

Infernal is just the coolest, though. Infernal all teh way.

Exelethril

Jovolo said:

Vivi is very situational. If you're a Knigh and you get vivisected for example, you did something terribly wrong. If anything, it's a perfect parry bypass for disembowel. (Damage>Vivisect) it's probably one of the most perfect abilities in the game that the rest should strive to be. Infernal is just the coolest, though. Infernal all teh way.

Hmm, what makes knights less susceptible to vivisect? Also, parry bypass for disembowel in what sense, by the way? You can still writhe off being impaled while off EQ from restoring. Also, nothing to stop someone from switching his/her leg parry after the breaks are healed.

Jovolo

Knights are less susceptible to vivisect because they have a faster max attainable speed and often reach (and quite easily) speeds of two seconds. This makes it simple enough to always be on balance at a time when you need to restore. They also have access to Arc while off equilibrium from restore, which they can afflict the Infernal with paralysis should they try to shatter.

It's a parry bypass because to avoid the vivisect, you need to either delay restoration curing on the first break (which leaves you with broken arms for a long amount of time), or you must restore. If you do the latter, which you probably will, this means you're off equilibrium for about 9 seconds. You can't successfully STAND for the entire duration of those 9 seconds, which renders your parry useless. It doesn't matter if they switch parry when they stand.

Writhe has nothing to do with bypassing parry. It's just a strong way to force an opponent into giving you both of their legs with minimal effort, which you can set up for a quad break attempt at a vivisect, a rift/pipe lock with frenzy or a disembowel.

I know you didn't ask by the way, but it's one of my favourite abilities due to the user-input that it requires from you as a player in dealing with it, and it makes it a lot more interesting for both parties as a result. My fights against Tirac and Carmain are my all time favouries because it wasn't a battle of people just aiming to get around Svo.

Trey

Exelethril said:

Infernals definitely have an edge here, I think. There are so many ways to pull off a vivisect and a few of them require someone to restore at a 1 second(?) margin with frenzy up to avoid it. Also, vivis are kinda easy to pull off and more efficient than disembowel as a finisher, sometimes.

You've generally got more than one second of leeway for a Restore, but I will add to yours that vivisect is very easy to pull off against people who don't know how to deal with it, and a giant headache against people who do.

@Tirac. I'm talking about Tirac. I have never been so perplexed during a fight as sparring him until I figured out what he was doing, then I gave up out of exasperation.

EDITED: Pulled out the specifics of his curing.

Cooper

The 99.9999999% way to prevent vivisect isn't really a secret anymore. It's built into Omni, and SVO has a (fairly) easy way to configure it too. I can only think of two ways to vivisect Tirac/Carmain types. And no one has ever done it ever, so I'm not even sure it can be pulled off.

I've heard people talking about using shatter to vivisect them, but that's not viable because they'll be using arc paralysis to stop that after it happens once.

Arador

Can't arc with two broken arms anymore.

Jovolo

Shatter is like a three second balance minimum (waiting for it to hit), you can just apply restoration to your arm as soon as they start it and they won't be able to capitalise from it. Then you have freedom to arc as much as you like.

But wtf, what a stupid change.

Arador

Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

Xli

Arador said:

Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

Monk hindering abilities are all based around telepathy and kaido, which are mental abilities, not swing limbs around the place.

Atalkez

Xli said:

Arador said:

Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

Monk hindering abilities are all based around telepathy and kaido, which are mental abilities, not swing limbs around the place.


While true, with two broken arms you shouldn't be thinking about crushing someone's mind, or have the mental capacity to do so, you should be thinking oh shit my arms are fucked let me heal these.

Cooper

Alternatively, monks are masters of the mind and can make their body ignore all the damage it receives (temporarily) and all the venoms (kind of permanently), so it makes sense they can still use their mental abilities when their body is damaged.

Atalkez

Daeir said:

The entire point of Tekura and Kaido is mastery over the self, and it does make sense for a skilled Monk to be completely able to ignore the pain and other interrupting aspects that having two very badly broken limbs would have on the average soldier. This extends to kai abilities being able to be used while transfixed, prone and otherwise completely incapacitated - makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective, but is absolutely terrible as far as mechanics go.

How do monks die? =p

Iocun

Monks don't die.

Jovolo

Arador said:

Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

Vigour is understandable, as it was broken. Arc was just COOL. Rip.

Kakotas

Paladin RP is pretty much dead/on hold for the moment. A few of us still are trying but no house or major way of organization means no really effective means of Knighting which kind of kills Paladin as a Knight RP.

Synbios

You mean Guardians/Templars RP is pretty much dead/on hold. 

Kakotas

Paladin... because they have no home now. Even if Targossas is officially the location for paladins and even if the new twins control devotion, there is no honor recognizing organization to Knight them. As always Divine Knightings were an exception to the rule but there is no path to Knighthood for a Paladin at the moment.

And as an Addendum... Historically speaking Templars are paladins and paladins are Templars. The class was so tied to the house (as is with most knightly houses) that you cannot really separate them very much. Which is why there will be no knightly house in Targossas apparently. *Spoilers*

Makarios

Kai cripple at least requires two unbroken arms.

Mind disrupt requires the monk be standing.

Batter is about the only one (short of paralysing off of herb balance, I suppose) that you can't account for in some form with your setups.

Arador

Oh there are millions of reasons from an RP perspective why it should be possible to crush or batter with broken arms while prone but sadly it does not fall in line with combat mechanics all the time. When there is no realistic way to disable something on an enemy it becomes a bit much. There is no real way to shatter against a monk if he has Kai. I can not think of another class that can claim that. Knights used to be able to claim such with Arc but that was brought in line.

Makarios

A big consideration with arc was limiting it while still keeping it unique. Hence we left it able to be used off eq but made something stop it so knights could still restore/arc and arc while disrupted and such.

Anyway, if you think something needs adjusting, five hours until classleads close.

Arador

Personally I think arc is fine the way it is now. It is powerful and has use but is still stopable in a reasonable manner. I like to see ways for limb damage classes to stop certain abilities with some extra work as some are only really stopable by affliction classes. Prone with hindered arms is a great mechanism for this. New shrugging is another ability that comes to mind in this case as well as priest healing or apostate syphon. In fact most passive abilities.

Penwize

Arador said:

There is no real way to shatter against a monk if he has Kai. I can not think of another class that can claim that. Knights used to be able to claim such with Arc but that was brought in line.

I'm not sure what kai has to do with that.  What kai ability prevents shatter that's unstoppable?  Cripple's stopped with broken/crippled arms, enfeeble wouldn't stop a shatter, and choke would only get one through during a shatter (curing off = no breaking held breath) so the damage isn't much of a threat there. 

The only monk ability that'll stop a shatter while hindered is mind paralyse or a perfectly timed mind batter (so the stun hits just as the shatter ends).  Mind paralyse is available to anyone with a torc, too, so it's more than just monks that can stop that.

Anedhel

Everyone can also tumble over an icewall, so I don't see how shatter's unstoppable or anything.

Xer

Tumble will likely get you killed against an Infernal off a shatter with most timings haha